Flt Sgt Copping's P-40 From The Egyptian Desert

Read the forum code of contact

Profile picture for user pat1968

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 258

You are avoiding answering the question. Your cost breakdowns re the P-40. Just broad brush will be fine.

Just the one email at the weekend to the party that wanted me to recover the Afghan Hinds...that would have been ahead of you.

Lucky you passed then!


I was invited to look at the containers and photograph the contents on his property when they arrived.

I published a couple of shots on his behalf some time later, if that was your concern. I think he wanted to show them off minimally as he was proud of the result.

If you were the sole financier, recoverer, importer, container procurer, transporter and owner, then that was not mentioned to me at that time.

Mark

You were specifically told not publish any pictures by 'the party', that was for his benefit by the way not mine. I had agreed to keep a lid on the recovery. You didn't publish them you posted them on this forum to show people you knew more than they did. He was certainly proud of the result and quite rightly, however, when 'the party' found out what you had done the air turned purple i can assure you! Do you really expect people to believe that if we wanted to publish pictures we couldn't have just released the pictures to the aviation press? You seem to be a bit hazy when it comes to agreements so i am not surprised you are having issues remembering the facts.

The fact some of the details were not mentioned to you at the time is probably that it had nothing to do with you. So now that you have been fishing for information what did you find out?

As far as a quote for dismantling and moving a relatively small single engined aeroplane a few hundred miles across Egypt. Almost everyone in the west makes the same assumptions. The idea that logistics are difficult to arrange in countries like Egypt and Afghanistan is a myth. In both countries logistics like this are a fact of life, consequently the equipment required to move people vehicles and material across difficult terrain is readily available. The roads in Egypt are good so the main challenge is the move out of the desert onto the MSR. If you want to know how much it costs to treck into the desert ask anyone who has every carried out an organised trip into the desert in Egypt how much it costs a day, this will cover your guide, passes, vehicles food accommodation and security. You have taken trips into the desert how much did you pay? You need a crane that can negotiate the terrain and a means of transporting your cargo. Add to that the cost of the container. The cost of four days in the desert apparently cost £30K per day! I can tell you that figure would have covered the Afghan recovery and I made three separate trips to Afghanistan before it was finished. Before the recovery team arrived tour guides were making day trips to the Kittyhawk for a few hundred dollars from Farafra. I will tell you what I could get you a quote at UK prices (which are considerably higher) and I guarantee it will still be a fraction of the £120k quoted. Interestingly enough I have just moved two 40 foot containers in the UK, 200 miles. We had to hire a crane to lift them out of the location, total cost £2200. Even at 10 times that price you still have nearly £100k in hand! Whilst you are thinking about that you need to factor in the fact that average wages in Egypt are about five times less than the UK.

What is more difficult and what everyone assumes is easy is getting permission to carry out the recovery and transfer of ownership as has been demonstrated quite admirably in this case. This was not news to the RAFM at the time they were making their arrangements because I wrote to them and told them!

While you are at it don't take my word for it why don't you ask a few other people like Elliott, Andy etc they have all been involved in aircraft recoveries from various locations. It is a bit like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted but at least you will get your answer!

Profile picture for user Mark12

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 10,029

You were specifically told not publish any pictures by 'the party', that was for his benefit by the way not mine. I had agreed to keep a lid on the recovery. You didn't publish them you posted them on this forum to show people you knew more than they did. He was certainly proud of the result and quite rightly, however, when 'the party' found out what you had done the air turned purple i can assure you! Do you really expect people to believe that if we wanted to publish pictures we couldn't have just released the pictures to the aviation press?

Absolutely right. So you must ask yourself the question why would I jeopardize what is now a 35 year relationship that has included recoveries together from Scandinavia and Africa and also a solo recovery of a Spitfire for that party from Australia...Oh! and he sent me a Christmas card this year. Strange that. :)

I published/posted a couple of shots on the owners behalf some 62 weeks after the Hinds arrived in the UK on the 'Plane Talk' Forum and two days after the Patrick Chriswick news release in Aeroplane Monthly.

Now, would you like to clarify the reported images of the desert Spitfire or were we a little economical with the actualité ?

Profile picture for user pat1968

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 258

Absolutely right. So you must ask yourself the question why would I jeopardize what is now a 35 year relationship that has included recoveries together from Scandinavia and Africa and also a solo recovery of a Spitfire for that party from Australia...Oh! and he sent me a Christmas card this year. Strange that. :)

Now, would you like to clarify the reported images of the desert Spitfire or were we a little economical with the actualité ?

And he still told you to mind your own business? Shame! Thinking about it i could offer a hypothesis but i am not sure you would approve.

As for Spitfires I would be delighted to take this up with you in person. This thread is about Dennis Copping and the P40.

So now that I have answered all of your questions when are you going to explain where the £120k went?

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 8,438

Gentlemen!

Enough. We are way OT, and this discussion should be moved to private message or email.

Thank you.

Bruce

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 85

thank you Bruce it seems to be getting a bit like children playing my dads bigger than your dad very silly really

Profile picture for user Jagan

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 561

thank you Bruce it seems to be getting a bit like children playing my dads bigger than your dad very silly really

c'mon admit it.. it is STILL a fascinating discussion...

Profile picture for user Junk Collector

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 1,444

c'mon admit it.. it is STILL a fascinating discussion...

For sure it is. Personally some aspects of this unfolding story come as no surprise to me at all, I used the word predicable earlier.

Before reading the thread again having missed a part of the in between section, which I will do, and forgetting the recovery, how has it come about that once recovered it has been obtained by another party, if that is now the case.

What was supposed to be the plan after the container arrived at El Alamein, and how had or not the RAFM secured ownership of it. Little point going to all that trouble if you are essentially recovering it for ultimately someone else and ending up out of pocket.

Profile picture for user pat1968

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 258


Before reading the thread again having missed a part of the in between section, which I will do, and forgetting the recovery, how has it come about that once recovered it has been obtained by another party, if that is now the case.

What was supposed to be the plan after the container arrived at El Alamein, and how had or not the RAFM secured ownership of it. Little point going to all that trouble if you are essentially recovering it for ultimately someone else and ending up out of pocket.

A very good question!

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 8,438

c'mon admit it.. it is STILL a fascinating discussion...

Jagan,

No problem at all with discussing the P40, but we strayed into Afghanistan.

Member for

17 years 3 months

Posts: 6,699

Jagan,

No problem at all with discussing the P40, but we strayed into Afghanistan.

:D Lets hope the P40 hasn't then.

Member for

16 years 5 months

Posts: 1,776

For sure it is. Personally some aspects of this unfolding story come as no surprise to me at all, I used the word predicable earlier.

Before reading the thread again having missed a part of the in between section, which I will do, and forgetting the recovery, how has it come about that once recovered it has been obtained by another party, if that is now the case.

What was supposed to be the plan after the container arrived at El Alamein, and how had or not the RAFM secured ownership of it. Little point going to all that trouble if you are essentially recovering it for ultimately someone else and ending up out of pocket.

It was posted earlier that the plan was to have a ceremony at El Alemein handing over the P-40 to the UK Govt - The Prime MInister or Foreign Secretary were mentioned as attendees. Then the Egyptian Govt changed.

Post 2118

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126933-P-40-From-Sahara-Dennis-Copping-Merged-And-Reinstated&p=2285302#post2285302

Profile picture for user Junk Collector

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 1,444

Still seems odd, like your wife using your credit card to buy you an expensive present then she gives it to your neighbour

Member for

6 years 8 months

Posts: 83

Agree - so there was going to be a ceremony? Well, it seems odd that there has been no suggestion of an actual plan to move the container onwards to the UK. I'm sure it wasn't going to be just "let's see how we go from here" and phone up some removers to come pick it up and stick it on the next available cargo ship from Alexandria to the UK?

Member for

7 years 2 months

Posts: 137

Agree - so there was going to be a ceremony? Well, it seems odd that there has been no suggestion of an actual plan to move the container onwards to the UK. I'm sure it wasn't going to be just "let's see how we go from here" and phone up some removers to come pick it up and stick it on the next available cargo ship from Alexandria to the UK?

....Please .. We must understand.......There was a change of Government, and the ensuing general upheaval that came with it.....

Member for

11 years 8 months

Posts: 1,568

So at the end of the day does anyone know conclusively where the container containing said P40 is now?

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 8,438

Heh,

Those that know will have been reading this storm on an internet forum, and laughing quietly to themselves. I somehow doubt that it is in any danger.

Profile picture for user stuart gowans

Member for

14 years 11 months

Posts: 2,011

Still seems odd, like your wife using your credit card to buy you an expensive present then she gives it to your neighbour

Sorry to hear about that.......

Profile picture for user Junk Collector

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 1,444

Be funny if it has just been moved down the road to a different storage point because it was in the way !

As for the change of government, when this happened, before undertaking the recovery,surely the whole thing would have had to have been re discussed with the new government prior to any recovery attempt

Member for

9 years 7 months

Posts: 6,473

JC

You're pre-supposing that the people responsible for planning and executing the transaction are capable of thinking ahead and 'crossing all the tees and dotting all the eyes'.

Profile picture for user Junk Collector

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 1,444

Just thinking along similar lines I just acquired something, I had to pay to have hauled to me. I didn't book the haulier until I had finalised everything, let alone pay for it