By: TonyT
- 18th September 2014 at 10:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If as suspected anything he is alleged to have found on this site is nought but a hunk of rusting barbed wire, bent spoon or piece of a tin etc, then I cannot see them having any case at all, I can see it now....
"And Sir please explain where you got this rusty bent spoon from"
"I dug it up in my back garden Officer, over to you"
As for his guns etc, if they are and by the looks of it they are deactivated and not sommething dug up out of a field, then it's a total kneejerk reaction.
The only problem he would have is if he was selling them online and stating that is where they came from, and even then he could claim they came from the site long before it was ever protected, it would then be up to the plods to prove otherwise?
By: John Green
- 18th September 2014 at 10:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"What is their game?"
It is all about 'targets'. Easy ones not difficult ones. Motorists equal easy so, we have lots of motoring offences. Seat belt, use of cell phone etc.
Burglaries? Difficult target so, we don't have many burglaries, they are simply not recorded when reported.
You get the drift ? It's a kind of game without limits. The one exception is anything involving firearms. That becomes an opportunity - as someone has already commented - to dress up American SWAT style, festoon yourself with various items of weaponry, phone your media snitch, arrange the TV camera angles and bingo ! A Rambo re-enactment before a live audience - or, something like that.
We pay for this nonsense. Truly 'root and branch' reform of the Police is long overdue with proportionality and prioritisation top of the list.
By: Junk Collector
- 18th September 2014 at 10:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We pay for this nonsense twice, once in the massive manpower used in an operation like this and twice in the compensation claims for damaged and destroyed items.
It is done because it looks good, guns off the street etc, meanwhile the gangs don't wave about Deac Vickers machine guns but 9mm pistols smuggled in from Eastern Europe.
After the riots there was a Sky News exclusive (below) on a Police operation to recover a stash of dangerous weapons, the policeman holding the dangerous Flintlock pistols to the camera was trying to hide the fact it had a solid barrel.
By: Trolly Aux
- 18th September 2014 at 10:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
JC, I am sure your correct and it is a million times easier to get one of those eastern European smuggled ones than bothering to deac an old sten or something similar
By: Runway06
- 18th September 2014 at 13:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That person I understand is out on a good boy license and is down south somewhere as he is not permitted to return
currently to his mothers old house and the place where the incidents he was locked up for took place.
A good bit of his stuff was seized and locked up by the crash and smash team from the MOD as he apparently
did not have much in the way of permits or licenses to recover and some of the stuff he had that had deactivation
certificates for had in fact been re activated. Some of his stuff did not get seized and apparently
disapeared to places elsewhere I know some of his cockpits got re allocated or sold and we where offered two of
them including a Vampire but believe this ended up being scrapped because he wanted silly money.
It would be nice to know what happened to the rest of the Wellington stuff he had to go with the stuff
at East Kirkby as it would go a long way to 60-70% of a whole aircraft being available for a rebuild project.
Besides the other allegations against him some of it was very scary apparently live explosives etc.
I dont know the full details so dont think I will comment further but sadly there are some rather less
than honest individuals still lurking aorund the artifacts world as thefts from museums and collections
in the uk during the last twelve months proves.
Mike E
I knew this chap and saw his vast extensive aviation collection, although I accept that he has done wrong with his other misdemeanours I hope that his aviation collection didn't get smelted down as there were plenty of rare WWII aviation items
In the collection, I hope to meet him at Newark aerojumble soon and will find out more on what aviation stuff has been destroyed by the authorities if anything at all.
By: Junk Collector
- 18th September 2014 at 14:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I hope to meet him at Newark aerojumble soon and will find out more on what aviation stuff has been destroyed by the authorities if anything at all.
I have heard a lot of it has been scattered and the locations of it are not fully known, I think because various agencies were involved, Police, MOD, EOD, so I doubt that all will come back, and what you saw before I doubt will be again.
I also doubt you will see him at Newark again.
From other cases I know of they also have taken and destroyed personal items not involved with the case in hand, in one case even family photographs, that included members of family, because they were serving in the military it was claimed, unbelievable but true.
By: Trolly Aux
- 18th September 2014 at 14:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
John - elected Police and Crime Commissioners - gosh, what a difference they have made, eh??
I am sure I have memories of a measure of respect for policemen in my gilded youth.....
PCC's watch em fall one by one, they will fall for sure, do you all realise that Police officers arrested, convicted and being dismissed due to, fraud, sex crimes, manipulation of evidence etc is a plague in the service, along with a self appointed criminologist/TV reporter/child exploitation expert who all have things to hide.
By: wingsmuseumUK
- 18th September 2014 at 14:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Have been following this thread and I have to say there is some very good comments on here and you never know someone with some say so may even take note. Ok wishful thinking but you never know. A point I would like to raise is are EOD trained in WW1 and WW2 ordnance these days? the days of extracting bomb fuzes from German bombs (like the Fernhurst D0-217 site) have long gone and I doubt they cover historical ordnance very much in training. There was a case recently where 3 "3 inch" rockets were found at Hawkinge by a metal detectorist and EOD blew them up, looking at the photo they were clearly harmless practice bombs full of lead shot! (the smoke igniter was in the tail unit and since these didn't have tail they were inert) so a clear case of misidentification. I wonder how many items from this chaps collection have also been wrongly identified and blown sky high? It may be worth people marking their items of inert ordnance with a small label with "FFE" A well known EOD term which means for those that don't know "Free from explosive". I am sure some further investigation might have been worth while before commiting all this man power at tax payers expense. For example an under cover officer could have gone in as a "fellow collector" or "dealer" and carried out a recce. I wonder also if EOD have anyone in an official role that advises them on historical items of ordance. If it turns out he had live rifles and guns then bigger fool him. Fact is if it all turns out to be a mountain out of a mole hill then I doubt we will ever know.
By: Graham Boak
- 18th September 2014 at 18:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There appear to be an awful lot of unsupported allegations against the police in this thread. It doesn't seem quite so clear cut. You know, it could just be that they have some justification here...
By: wingsmuseumUK
- 18th September 2014 at 18:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There appear to be an awful lot of unsupported allegations against the police in this thread. It doesn't seem quite so clear cut. You know, it could just be that they have some justification here...
Yes with the second raid it kind of says to me there is maybe more to it, maybe as a pure guess someone was found with a live firearm and they reported where they got it from, and maybe again pure guess work they are tracing a line of supply or collectors?? then again the allegations mentioned above against the Police could be equally true, I think a lot of people are struggling to see how such an extreme reaction is justified when so little information is given in the official reports.
By: John Green
- 18th September 2014 at 18:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re 34
I think that you're right. When did the Police ever get it wrong or, go in OTT. We have no right to be suspicious, the Police have always acted in the best interests of the public - haven't they ? Ask Rotherham.
By: Creaking Door
- 18th September 2014 at 18:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If I worked in EOD then I'm not sure that I'd take anybody's word for the fact that anything was 'free from explosive' even if it did have an 'FFE' label on it! The safety of everybody should be the overriding concern; why take risks with potentially lethal ordnance?
On the other hand there is a very fine line between not taking risks and a complete overreaction; why was the 'suspect' arrested and removed from the site while his collection was investigated by EOD? Surely it would be better (and safer) for the 'suspect' to guide the EOD people around his collection and be on hand to answer questions rather for the EOD people to find (or miss) ordnance in the collection and assume the worst about everything?
Training EOD in 'historic' ordnance would cost more, and budgets are always tight, but what proportion of EOD work is this older ordnance accounting for?
Whatever happens, in this country, a man is surely innocent until proven guilty, and the press should be kept well out of it until a conviction is secured! This goes for any crime.
By: Wellington285
- 18th September 2014 at 18:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The actions of the Police have been well over the top. I know of a few incidents in Bristol and South Wales where the Police have raided collectors, My mate had his WW2 jeep taken off him as a certain Policeman says he has been going over to France and bringing back weapons and drugs. This has been proved to be a load of Bo####ks and still the Police are refusing to return his Jeep and they are querying its value, maybe they have damaged the Jeep taking it apart looking for secret compartments.
Another mate was raided in the early hours after a certain person told the Police they had illegal weapons. The Police this time checked all the weapons and certificates and left saying what a waste of time and no further action was taken. It seems that some collectors are open to a lot of problems from others with a grudge. Would it be nice if a Policeman would go to the house and check out the collection without going in heavy handed along with the 7th Cavalry and wasting tax payers money.
Ian
By: wingsmuseumUK
- 18th September 2014 at 19:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re post 37 Whether the EOD or the collector demonstrates an item is FFE it is the same risk, someone has to unscrew the item and show it is empty, to have the simple mentality that if it looks like a bomb or a shell then the answer is to blow it up (to be on the safe side) is crazy, if that is the way our society is going then every black man is guilty and liable to cause a riot, this we all know is not a fact nor is it reasonable. If EOD are not able to identify if an item is live or inert then they should seek another career choice. In the defence of the EOD they have to react without assumption but maybe they should only be called in if something "live" is found by someone who knows what they are talking about, therefore an expert or advisor is needed in such cases, this would save money as in most cases EOD would not be required. Another way of looking at it is every time a new building development occurs in London EOD should therefore (with this simple mentality) attend just in case a Luftwaffe bomb is found, where in fact they are only called in if they are needed. Ok the FFE label may not prove much but it is at least an effort to help those identify real dangers to the public and it may just make the officer on scene ask the owner of the item to prove the statement made on the label.
If I worked in EOD then I'm not sure that I'd take anybody's word for the fact that anything was 'free from explosive' even if it did have an 'FFE' label on it! The safety of everybody should be the overriding concern; why take risks with a potentially lethal ordnance?
On the other hand there is a very fine line between not taking risks and a complete overreaction; why was the 'suspect' arrested and removed from the site while his collection was investigated by EOD? Surely it would be better (and safer) for the 'suspect' to guide the OED people around his collection and be on hand to answer questions rather for the EOD people to find (or miss) ordnance in the collection and assume to worst about everything?
Training OED in 'historic' ordnance would cost more, and budgets are always tight, but what proportion of OED work is this older ordnance accounting for?
Whatever happens, in this country, a man is surely innocent until proven guilty, and the press should be kept well out of it until a conviction is secured! This goes for any crime.
By: wingsmuseumUK
- 18th September 2014 at 19:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re post 37 Whether the EOD or the collector demonstrates an item is FFE it is the same risk, someone has to unscrew the item and show it is empty, to have the simple mentality that if it looks like a bomb or a shell then the answer is to blow it up (to be on the safe side) is crazy, if that is the way our society is going then every black man is guilty and liable to cause a riot, this we all know is not a fact nor is it reasonable. If EOD are not able to identify if an item is live or inert then they should seek another career choice. In the defence of the EOD they have to react without assumption but maybe they should only be called in if something "live" is found by someone who knows what they are talking about, therefore an expert or advisor is needed in such cases, this would save money as in most cases EOD would not be required. Another way of looking at it is every time a new building development occurs in London EOD should therefore (with this simple mentality) attend just in case a Luftwaffe bomb is found, where in fact they are only called in if they are needed. Ok the FFE label may not prove much but it is at least an effort to help those identify real dangers to the public and it may just make the officer on scene ask the owner of the item to prove the statement made on the label.
Posts: 8,983
By: TonyT - 18th September 2014 at 10:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If as suspected anything he is alleged to have found on this site is nought but a hunk of rusting barbed wire, bent spoon or piece of a tin etc, then I cannot see them having any case at all, I can see it now....
"And Sir please explain where you got this rusty bent spoon from"
"I dug it up in my back garden Officer, over to you"
As for his guns etc, if they are and by the looks of it they are deactivated and not sommething dug up out of a field, then it's a total kneejerk reaction.
The only problem he would have is if he was selling them online and stating that is where they came from, and even then he could claim they came from the site long before it was ever protected, it would then be up to the plods to prove otherwise?
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 18th September 2014 at 10:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"What is their game?"
It is all about 'targets'. Easy ones not difficult ones. Motorists equal easy so, we have lots of motoring offences. Seat belt, use of cell phone etc.
Burglaries? Difficult target so, we don't have many burglaries, they are simply not recorded when reported.
You get the drift ? It's a kind of game without limits. The one exception is anything involving firearms. That becomes an opportunity - as someone has already commented - to dress up American SWAT style, festoon yourself with various items of weaponry, phone your media snitch, arrange the TV camera angles and bingo ! A Rambo re-enactment before a live audience - or, something like that.
We pay for this nonsense. Truly 'root and branch' reform of the Police is long overdue with proportionality and prioritisation top of the list.
Posts: 1,444
By: Junk Collector - 18th September 2014 at 10:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We pay for this nonsense twice, once in the massive manpower used in an operation like this and twice in the compensation claims for damaged and destroyed items.
It is done because it looks good, guns off the street etc, meanwhile the gangs don't wave about Deac Vickers machine guns but 9mm pistols smuggled in from Eastern Europe.
After the riots there was a Sky News exclusive (below) on a Police operation to recover a stash of dangerous weapons, the policeman holding the dangerous Flintlock pistols to the camera was trying to hide the fact it had a solid barrel.
http://news.sky.com/story/880011/exclusive-gangs-stash-guns-for-more-riots
There is always the hysterical comment made somewhere about how deactivated guns can be reactivated in about half an hour.
Posts: 3,778
By: Trolly Aux - 18th September 2014 at 10:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
JC, I am sure your correct and it is a million times easier to get one of those eastern European smuggled ones than bothering to deac an old sten or something similar
Posts: 635
By: Runway06 - 18th September 2014 at 13:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I knew this chap and saw his vast extensive aviation collection, although I accept that he has done wrong with his other misdemeanours I hope that his aviation collection didn't get smelted down as there were plenty of rare WWII aviation items
In the collection, I hope to meet him at Newark aerojumble soon and will find out more on what aviation stuff has been destroyed by the authorities if anything at all.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 18th September 2014 at 13:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
John - elected Police and Crime Commissioners - gosh, what a difference they have made, eh??
I am sure I have memories of a measure of respect for policemen in my gilded youth.....
Posts: 1,444
By: Junk Collector - 18th September 2014 at 14:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have heard a lot of it has been scattered and the locations of it are not fully known, I think because various agencies were involved, Police, MOD, EOD, so I doubt that all will come back, and what you saw before I doubt will be again.
I also doubt you will see him at Newark again.
From other cases I know of they also have taken and destroyed personal items not involved with the case in hand, in one case even family photographs, that included members of family, because they were serving in the military it was claimed, unbelievable but true.
Posts: 2,025
By: stuart gowans - 18th September 2014 at 14:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"I also doubt you will see him at Newark again"
He'll have to sell at the Brenzett now ........ if they'll 'ave 'im.
Posts: 3,778
By: Trolly Aux - 18th September 2014 at 14:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PCC's watch em fall one by one, they will fall for sure, do you all realise that Police officers arrested, convicted and being dismissed due to, fraud, sex crimes, manipulation of evidence etc is a plague in the service, along with a self appointed criminologist/TV reporter/child exploitation expert who all have things to hide.
Posts: 818
By: wingsmuseumUK - 18th September 2014 at 14:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Have been following this thread and I have to say there is some very good comments on here and you never know someone with some say so may even take note. Ok wishful thinking but you never know. A point I would like to raise is are EOD trained in WW1 and WW2 ordnance these days? the days of extracting bomb fuzes from German bombs (like the Fernhurst D0-217 site) have long gone and I doubt they cover historical ordnance very much in training. There was a case recently where 3 "3 inch" rockets were found at Hawkinge by a metal detectorist and EOD blew them up, looking at the photo they were clearly harmless practice bombs full of lead shot! (the smoke igniter was in the tail unit and since these didn't have tail they were inert) so a clear case of misidentification. I wonder how many items from this chaps collection have also been wrongly identified and blown sky high? It may be worth people marking their items of inert ordnance with a small label with "FFE" A well known EOD term which means for those that don't know "Free from explosive". I am sure some further investigation might have been worth while before commiting all this man power at tax payers expense. For example an under cover officer could have gone in as a "fellow collector" or "dealer" and carried out a recce. I wonder also if EOD have anyone in an official role that advises them on historical items of ordance. If it turns out he had live rifles and guns then bigger fool him. Fact is if it all turns out to be a mountain out of a mole hill then I doubt we will ever know.
Posts: 7,742
By: TwinOtter23 - 18th September 2014 at 15:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Reports of a second seizure in Bicester http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/headlines/11481494.Update__Police_say_Bicester_explosives_may_have_been_plundered_from_protected_sites/?ref=rss
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 18th September 2014 at 17:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If anyone knows where the person implicated can be contacted, advise him to get a consultation with Liberty.
If the Police have exceeded their authority or, by their negligence and carelessness have caused irreparable damage, the matter could be actionable.
Posts: 957
By: Graham Boak - 18th September 2014 at 18:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There appear to be an awful lot of unsupported allegations against the police in this thread. It doesn't seem quite so clear cut. You know, it could just be that they have some justification here...
Posts: 818
By: wingsmuseumUK - 18th September 2014 at 18:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes with the second raid it kind of says to me there is maybe more to it, maybe as a pure guess someone was found with a live firearm and they reported where they got it from, and maybe again pure guess work they are tracing a line of supply or collectors?? then again the allegations mentioned above against the Police could be equally true, I think a lot of people are struggling to see how such an extreme reaction is justified when so little information is given in the official reports.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 18th September 2014 at 18:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re 34
I think that you're right. When did the Police ever get it wrong or, go in OTT. We have no right to be suspicious, the Police have always acted in the best interests of the public - haven't they ? Ask Rotherham.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 18th September 2014 at 18:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If I worked in EOD then I'm not sure that I'd take anybody's word for the fact that anything was 'free from explosive' even if it did have an 'FFE' label on it! The safety of everybody should be the overriding concern; why take risks with potentially lethal ordnance?
On the other hand there is a very fine line between not taking risks and a complete overreaction; why was the 'suspect' arrested and removed from the site while his collection was investigated by EOD? Surely it would be better (and safer) for the 'suspect' to guide the EOD people around his collection and be on hand to answer questions rather for the EOD people to find (or miss) ordnance in the collection and assume the worst about everything?
Training EOD in 'historic' ordnance would cost more, and budgets are always tight, but what proportion of EOD work is this older ordnance accounting for?
Whatever happens, in this country, a man is surely innocent until proven guilty, and the press should be kept well out of it until a conviction is secured! This goes for any crime.
Posts: 422
By: Wellington285 - 18th September 2014 at 18:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The actions of the Police have been well over the top. I know of a few incidents in Bristol and South Wales where the Police have raided collectors, My mate had his WW2 jeep taken off him as a certain Policeman says he has been going over to France and bringing back weapons and drugs. This has been proved to be a load of Bo####ks and still the Police are refusing to return his Jeep and they are querying its value, maybe they have damaged the Jeep taking it apart looking for secret compartments.
Another mate was raided in the early hours after a certain person told the Police they had illegal weapons. The Police this time checked all the weapons and certificates and left saying what a waste of time and no further action was taken. It seems that some collectors are open to a lot of problems from others with a grudge. Would it be nice if a Policeman would go to the house and check out the collection without going in heavy handed along with the 7th Cavalry and wasting tax payers money.
Ian
Posts: 818
By: wingsmuseumUK - 18th September 2014 at 19:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re post 37 Whether the EOD or the collector demonstrates an item is FFE it is the same risk, someone has to unscrew the item and show it is empty, to have the simple mentality that if it looks like a bomb or a shell then the answer is to blow it up (to be on the safe side) is crazy, if that is the way our society is going then every black man is guilty and liable to cause a riot, this we all know is not a fact nor is it reasonable. If EOD are not able to identify if an item is live or inert then they should seek another career choice. In the defence of the EOD they have to react without assumption but maybe they should only be called in if something "live" is found by someone who knows what they are talking about, therefore an expert or advisor is needed in such cases, this would save money as in most cases EOD would not be required. Another way of looking at it is every time a new building development occurs in London EOD should therefore (with this simple mentality) attend just in case a Luftwaffe bomb is found, where in fact they are only called in if they are needed. Ok the FFE label may not prove much but it is at least an effort to help those identify real dangers to the public and it may just make the officer on scene ask the owner of the item to prove the statement made on the label.
Posts: 818
By: wingsmuseumUK - 18th September 2014 at 19:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re post 37 Whether the EOD or the collector demonstrates an item is FFE it is the same risk, someone has to unscrew the item and show it is empty, to have the simple mentality that if it looks like a bomb or a shell then the answer is to blow it up (to be on the safe side) is crazy, if that is the way our society is going then every black man is guilty and liable to cause a riot, this we all know is not a fact nor is it reasonable. If EOD are not able to identify if an item is live or inert then they should seek another career choice. In the defence of the EOD they have to react without assumption but maybe they should only be called in if something "live" is found by someone who knows what they are talking about, therefore an expert or advisor is needed in such cases, this would save money as in most cases EOD would not be required. Another way of looking at it is every time a new building development occurs in London EOD should therefore (with this simple mentality) attend just in case a Luftwaffe bomb is found, where in fact they are only called in if they are needed. Ok the FFE label may not prove much but it is at least an effort to help those identify real dangers to the public and it may just make the officer on scene ask the owner of the item to prove the statement made on the label.
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 18th September 2014 at 19:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ka...Boom!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-29249537