Sahara P40

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24 years 2 months

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John,

if I was offered the chance to own one, I would choose the Spitfire. However if I had to choose between the two for a museum, I would choose the P40, as it is.

There are no simple answers here.

Bruce

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12 years 11 months

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Re 147

Well, it would to you ! Take an aspirin and lie down, there's a good chap.

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24 years 2 months

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John,

if I was offered the chance to own one, I would choose the Spitfire. However if I had to choose between the two for a museum, I would choose the P40, as it is.

There are no simple answers here.

Bruce

Spot on Bruce.

When I say 'Equitable Contract', I refer to financials not National desireabilty. The book value of the Mk 22 and the actual cost of the recovery were basically the same.

If the P-40 was now sitting at Cosford I would suggest the RAF Museum had got by far the better of the deal for the Nation.

Mark

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24 years 2 months

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I agree, the historical significance of the P40 far outweighs that of the Spitfire..

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20 years 7 months

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As Seadog obviously has more inside information than everyone else perhaps instead of coming on here shouting people down he ought to explain everything truthfully ,openly so that we can be educated and make judgements based on facts.

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12 years 11 months

Posts: 6,535

Re 152

I perfectly understood your use of 'equitable contract'.

Permit me to rephrase: "If ever the P40 sits at Cosford I would suggest........"

Re 153

Obvious. It can be only the 'historical significance' it can't be anything else. Even that, doesn't give it parity with Mitchell's masterpiece.

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20 years

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John, I think you're pretty much on your own on this one:o

You are alone in your dug-out, the opposition is massing, and you are running out of ammunition !

I am not at all the kind of person to to go on a public forum, and state that you are simply wrong.
But I am certainly thinking it! :eagerness:

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24 years 2 months

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As Seadog obviously has more inside information than everyone else perhaps instead of coming on here shouting people down he ought to explain everything truthfully ,openly so that we can be educated and make judgements based on facts.

Do remember that often these contracts have confidentiality clauses and/or that sharing details publicly can jeopardise delicate negotiations.

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20 years 7 months

Posts: 7,025

Agreed Eddie so maybe thats what needs to be said ,unfortunately whilst you only get part truths posted people will fill in the blanks----wrongly.Lets hope everything pans out well for all parties and the P40 will become a memorial for Dennis Copping R I P.

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12 years 11 months

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I don't mind. Broad shoulders, thick skin and unshakeable conviction. Tin hat and fix bayonets. Sod the ammo.

Why on earth shouldn't you be the 'kind of person to go on a public forum and tell me I'm wrong !'

If I don't have any qualms in doing it, why should you ?

I did not expect to engage on a forum that has a specific interest and is therefore stuffed with supporters and expect all the rational and not so rational arguments to go my way. I've stated ad nauseam my position and stand by it.

I'm aware that there is such a thing as 'Spitfire Envy' or, whichever description you feel like using to demonstrate one's antipathy towards a machine that tends to garner all the attention and glory. Even the Luftwaffe were aware of this during and after the Battle of Britain. I get an impression that this sentiment is to be found in these forums.

By almost any measure, by any standard or comparison except that of actually dodging angry cannon fire during WW2, the Spitfire is by far the more worthy contender for retention and restoration, hopefully on the British register.

Just because numbers of P40 supporters line up against me is not proof that they are all correct in their assessment. On a niche subject I would expect to do battle with vast numbers of the deluded !

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So in your assessment, John, the RAF Museum would be best served by swapping the Beaufort, DH9a, P47 and others back for Spitfires?

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9 years 1 month

Posts: 9

John, I think you're pretty much on your own on this one:o

You are alone in your dug-out, the opposition is massing, and you are running out of ammunition !

I am not at all the kind of person to to go on a public forum, and state that you are simply wrong.
But I am certainly thinking it! :eagerness:

Here here!

Just my 10c,

By almost any measure, by any standard or comparison except that of actually dodging angry cannon fire during WW2, the Spitfire is by far the more worthy contender for retention and restoration, hopefully on the British register.

At what point was this being argued? The Mk22, now out of storage from the RAFM and will no doubt be on the 'to do' list and end up on the British register, so I don't quite understand the gripe? Is it purely the financial aspect? Deciding what a project is worth is probably done by reading tea leaves in some countries.

As far as 'P40' supporters goes, I think you have totally missed the point. It's all about the Story, and what happened to Dennis, the airframe type is irrelevant IMO.

TG

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20 years 7 months

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Is that where the Burma Spi ---ahhh no sorry :) I suspect this thread is heading the same way though :)

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I've never read such juvenile codswallop.

The spitfire is assured it's place in history, and this is reflected in the significant number preserved by the RAFM and still operated by the RAF. The P40 while not the supreme machine that the spitfire was, is a part of the history of the RAF and the conflict and was operated by men no less skilled or deserving of their part in history. While this machine is tied up with the more important story of its pilot, it remains an Important and historic artifact in its own right. It's right to preserve it and display it, to tell the story of the man that last flew it.

"More worthy"? What are we, 12 years old and arguing over whose dad flew the best plane? Unbelievable.

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24 years 2 months

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It's right to preserve it and display it, to tell the story of the man that last flew it.

Exactly - and by displaying it in a national museum (even if it happens to be a national museum in Egypt, eventually), it is a memorial to all of the men who lost their lives flying Kittyhawks in the desert.

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12 years 11 months

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Eddie,

When you extend the argument is when it gets threadbare and fatuous.

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24 years 2 months

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? In what way am I extending the argument? Ultimately the case I'm making is that historically the RAFM have swapped plenty of Spitfires for other "less desirable" aircraft, and that the P40 has intrinsic value (in its history), and memorial value.

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Tail gunner

Your last paragraph is almost spot on. That, is what it is about. It's still not worth a Spitfire.

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9 years 1 month

Posts: 9

Tail gunner

Your last paragraph is almost spot on. That, is what it is about. It's still not worth a Spitfire.

Again, monetary value on the Spitfire, so what was it worth, stripped out, no u/c, no engine, no hub or blades?

There is already a Mk24 on the main floor of the RAFM. It is probably significant as the Mk24 was the last of the line. It never saw and combat, and its story is just that it is the last of a long and great line. Putting a statically restored Mk22 anywhere on the floor would be waste of valuable space, and even some of the “experts” could not tell the difference without looking at the military reg.

The RAFM’s job is to tell the story of the RAF, not the story of the Spitfire.

And if I were Flt Sgt Copping, I would rather have my Kittyhawk displayed for the next generations to see, thousands of people over the years. Rather than have what is left of my bones scraped off the desert floor, put in a box and buried somewhere, with a stone marker that few people would see. At least the Kittyhawk in the Museum would tell a story. Of the Desert Campaign and the risks and horrors of war.

Educating Britons. Far more valuable than a plaque in a cemetery somewhere.

TG