By: scotavia
- 29th January 2015 at 17:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Could anyone have predicted the turmoil? Many recoveries have been held up and eventually sorted out.The story does not contain any wrong doings in a legal sense and the airframe should eventually turn up in the Uk.That header pic of an early Spitfire flying is misleading in the news item.
''The exchange was ill-conceived and badly managed. The RAF Museum has nothing to show for it and the nation has lost a perfectly good and valuable Spitfire."
Maybe. Maybe not. In is an unfortunate and sad tale from start to finish (so far ) but I guess it is not good news copy without accusations flying and fingers pointed.
By: Bruce
- 29th January 2015 at 19:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In terms of salvaging the aircraft, the right thing was done. If it ends up on display in Egypt, the right thing was still done. Had it not been dismantled and moved, it may well be scrap by now.
I question the value of the Spitfire at £200k. Not for a low back, late mark aeroplane. Not by half.
I see no rush in bringing the P40 to the UK. Softly, softly.
I repeat what I have said before. The recovery team spent some time in confirming that the remains of Copping were not in the immediate area. There is not much more that could be done, without knowing the location of the supposed remains found by others.
By: David Burke
- 29th January 2015 at 20:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The optimism in thinking that the P-40 will come to the U.K seems to be founded on very little ! The political situation in Egypt still seems unresolved and the report last year that the container had gone from the compound was somewhat concerning! It has a value -whether that is to foreign parties - Egyptian scrapmen or any other interested party!
In terms of the Spitfire -very difficult to put a price on it -however F.22's are not exactly common and for someone who wants something different to a MK.IX
it might well have interested potential owners ! If a static Harrier GR.3 can pull £100 K at auction - a somewhat striped F.22 would have pulled a little more !
By: Bruce
- 29th January 2015 at 20:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe, maybe not.
For a change, I don't view this in monetary terms at all.
For me, it doesn't matter if it comes back to the UK. It matters that it was saved, which it was. If it ends up displayed in Egypt, which is possible, then we have effectively donated a Spitfire to the Egyptians.
If, ultimately, it gets sold, then so be it. Naivety may well be the watchword then. Right now, I don't see it though. The Egyptians are too busy trying to sort out their own affairs.
New
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J
- 29th January 2015 at 20:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hardly the fault of either Kennet or the RAF Museum that the political situation went rapidly pear-shaped soon after the aircraft was recovered from the desert. It was a calculated risk, that so far hasn't paid off.
By: David Burke
- 29th January 2015 at 20:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your taking a massive calculated risk if you do a deal that doesn't involve completion of a deal on delivery !
Looking at how the political situation unfolded the Islamist government was in trouble before the recovery and the military intervention should have made things simpler . Its not a case that politically things got worse -if anything it got slightly better. Whether the British Embassy ever gets in a position to negociate for it remains to be seen - keeping Embassy staff safe in the melting pot of North Africa probably gets far more attention!
By: Fournier Boy
- 29th January 2015 at 21:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Am I missing something here? An airframe that has sat for years out of public view, unrestored and not (readily) accessible is to be restored to fly by an individual who his willing to spend his money in an airframe that all will get to enjoy. An airframe has been recovered from the desert, and although in a country where politics is at best "militant" at least it is safe in a container and being protected form the elements. I can't really see why so much ill feeling? Would those on here criticising the deal rather it sat in a dusty store forever more? I certainly would like to see it fly in my lifetime!
By: David Burke
- 29th January 2015 at 21:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We are not exactly sure where the P-40 or it's container is ! Calling it 'safe' is maybe optimistic !
In terms of the Spitfire -yes we would all like to see it see the light of day - deals in the past have seen the RAFM gain the likes of the Hendon P-40 - Beaufort and Sopwith Pup. As long as the RAFM get something I am sure people will be happy !
By: Anon
- 29th January 2015 at 21:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I recall a story I was told about a batch of aircraft parts that were shipped from Africa many years back: The spares were checked, inspected and packed and then paid for. When the crates arrived in UK they were full of bricks and rubbish. Sender denied all knowledge claiming the parts left them OK.
By: Bruce
- 29th January 2015 at 23:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is no reason to believe that the container is anywhere other than Egypt as far as I can see.
Sometimes in life, we take a gamble and it pays off. Sometimes it doesn't. If it had, some of us would be praising a man who would probably still have a job.
Mike, there are plenty of similar stories. Like the container full of most of a Mosquito that disappeared in Australia en route to the UK.
Posts: 1,988
By: jeepman - 21st January 2015 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Mike
Is the Annual Report available on the web - and if so what period does it cover?
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J - 21st January 2015 at 00:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is on the RAF Museum's website, and covers y/e 31/3/14
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 29th January 2015 at 16:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's reached the daily press now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11377178/RAF-Museum-handed-over-Spitfire-in-ill-conceived-deal-for-WWII-aircraft-it-may-never-receive.html
Moggy
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 29th January 2015 at 17:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thats how people loose jobs !
Posts: 1,311
By: Dr Strangelove - 29th January 2015 at 17:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wonder if they'd like to help transfer a trunk box containing 10 million dollars out of Nigeria...
Yes...they probably would :stupid:
Posts: 10,168
By: Peter - 29th January 2015 at 17:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sad that in the hast to deal for the P40, that Dennis seems to have been forgotten...........
Posts: 2,810
By: scotavia - 29th January 2015 at 17:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Could anyone have predicted the turmoil? Many recoveries have been held up and eventually sorted out.The story does not contain any wrong doings in a legal sense and the airframe should eventually turn up in the Uk.That header pic of an early Spitfire flying is misleading in the news item.
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 29th January 2015 at 18:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some 'aircraft historian ' Pat Chiswick ( who he ? ) is pretty forthright in his criticism in the Telegraph article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11377178/RAF-Museum-handed-over-Spitfire-in-ill-conceived-deal-for-WWII-aircraft-it-may-never-receive.html
''The exchange was ill-conceived and badly managed. The RAF Museum has nothing to show for it and the nation has lost a perfectly good and valuable Spitfire."
Maybe. Maybe not. In is an unfortunate and sad tale from start to finish (so far ) but I guess it is not good news copy without accusations flying and fingers pointed.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 29th January 2015 at 19:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In terms of salvaging the aircraft, the right thing was done. If it ends up on display in Egypt, the right thing was still done. Had it not been dismantled and moved, it may well be scrap by now.
I question the value of the Spitfire at £200k. Not for a low back, late mark aeroplane. Not by half.
I see no rush in bringing the P40 to the UK. Softly, softly.
I repeat what I have said before. The recovery team spent some time in confirming that the remains of Copping were not in the immediate area. There is not much more that could be done, without knowing the location of the supposed remains found by others.
Bruce
Posts: 2,835
By: Whitley_Project - 29th January 2015 at 19:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolutely unbelievable....
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By: David Burke - 29th January 2015 at 20:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The optimism in thinking that the P-40 will come to the U.K seems to be founded on very little ! The political situation in Egypt still seems unresolved and the report last year that the container had gone from the compound was somewhat concerning! It has a value -whether that is to foreign parties - Egyptian scrapmen or any other interested party!
In terms of the Spitfire -very difficult to put a price on it -however F.22's are not exactly common and for someone who wants something different to a MK.IX
it might well have interested potential owners ! If a static Harrier GR.3 can pull £100 K at auction - a somewhat striped F.22 would have pulled a little more !
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 29th January 2015 at 20:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe, maybe not.
For a change, I don't view this in monetary terms at all.
For me, it doesn't matter if it comes back to the UK. It matters that it was saved, which it was. If it ends up displayed in Egypt, which is possible, then we have effectively donated a Spitfire to the Egyptians.
If, ultimately, it gets sold, then so be it. Naivety may well be the watchword then. Right now, I don't see it though. The Egyptians are too busy trying to sort out their own affairs.
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J - 29th January 2015 at 20:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hardly the fault of either Kennet or the RAF Museum that the political situation went rapidly pear-shaped soon after the aircraft was recovered from the desert. It was a calculated risk, that so far hasn't paid off.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 29th January 2015 at 20:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your taking a massive calculated risk if you do a deal that doesn't involve completion of a deal on delivery !
Looking at how the political situation unfolded the Islamist government was in trouble before the recovery and the military intervention should have made things simpler . Its not a case that politically things got worse -if anything it got slightly better. Whether the British Embassy ever gets in a position to negociate for it remains to be seen - keeping Embassy staff safe in the melting pot of North Africa probably gets far more attention!
Posts: 1,712
By: Sopwith - 29th January 2015 at 20:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well at least the Spitfire will be restored to flying condition and it hasn't left the country as I understand it, which is a good thing.
Posts: 1,037
By: Fournier Boy - 29th January 2015 at 21:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Am I missing something here? An airframe that has sat for years out of public view, unrestored and not (readily) accessible is to be restored to fly by an individual who his willing to spend his money in an airframe that all will get to enjoy. An airframe has been recovered from the desert, and although in a country where politics is at best "militant" at least it is safe in a container and being protected form the elements. I can't really see why so much ill feeling? Would those on here criticising the deal rather it sat in a dusty store forever more? I certainly would like to see it fly in my lifetime!
FB
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 29th January 2015 at 21:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
We are not exactly sure where the P-40 or it's container is ! Calling it 'safe' is maybe optimistic !
In terms of the Spitfire -yes we would all like to see it see the light of day - deals in the past have seen the RAFM gain the likes of the Hendon P-40 - Beaufort and Sopwith Pup. As long as the RAFM get something I am sure people will be happy !
Posts: 2,841
By: Anon - 29th January 2015 at 21:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I recall a story I was told about a batch of aircraft parts that were shipped from Africa many years back: The spares were checked, inspected and packed and then paid for. When the crates arrived in UK they were full of bricks and rubbish. Sender denied all knowledge claiming the parts left them OK.
No comeback.
Anon.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 29th January 2015 at 23:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is no reason to believe that the container is anywhere other than Egypt as far as I can see.
Sometimes in life, we take a gamble and it pays off. Sometimes it doesn't. If it had, some of us would be praising a man who would probably still have a job.
Mike, there are plenty of similar stories. Like the container full of most of a Mosquito that disappeared in Australia en route to the UK.
Posts: 1,777
By: DaveF68 - 29th January 2015 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So from that comment do we assume the sudden departure of the previous Director and the P-40/Spitfire were related?