Sahara P40

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5 years 2 months

Posts: 74

I have no issue with aircraft being exported abroad - in time they may come back again.
I'd also rather see it flying on youtube than not seeing it in some museum store room away from public eye.

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19 years 10 months

Posts: 3,208

Mosquito TV959 is a good parallel in many ways. It too was held in store for the national collection for many years, but kept out of sight. When it was traded with the Imperial War Museum, it wasn't really lost to the nation, as it had been in store for so long.
I was under the impression that it was traded pretty much as soon as it came off public display in Lambeth when the last redevelopment (before the absolutely dire current one) was done in the late-80s.
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19 years 10 months

Posts: 8,409

No, it sat in a store in London for many years. Moggy; my point about not restoring it is based on the need to keep a number of relatively untouched airframes for posterity, that are examples of the original build standard. The Mosquito was stored in our storage building in Norfolk for a good few years, and I got to know it well (so to speak). Building aircraft like the one now in the USA, of which the original wood was entirely rotten is a good way to go.
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19 years 10 months

Posts: 10,029

It's probably true that the contract should have had some form of penalty clause in it to cover non-completion...
Could it be that you are presuming the contract was not completed? Perhaps the contract was to recovery the P-40 and containerize it to a safe point of exit for onward shipping by sea/air/civil/military transport of the end users choice. Very unfortunate timing. Mark

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19 years 10 months

Posts: 1,707

As I recall, TV959 came down from the wall in 88 and was flogged off in the early 90s, 92 or 93. I'm abivalent on this one. It's always a great shame if an original machine is restored so heavily that it loses its patina and originality, but we do have more Mosquitos sitting on the ground than flying. This particular one flew into the 60s and was then chopped about so, if you are going to restore one, knowing that its going to need a lot of replacement of parts, this one is the obvious candidate.

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19 years 10 months

Posts: 1,707

Could it be that you are presuming the contract was not completed?
Fair point. It may yet make it here but having been in that region recently, I'm not holding out any great hopes. Archeaological sites are being ravaged and looted like never before, even treasures like the King Tut death mask aren't safe(!)
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19 years 10 months

Posts: 16,831

Building aircraft like the one now in the USA, of which the original wood was entirely rotten is a good way to go.
Ah, I see your point. I'm afraid though that for me an aircraft is only an aircraft when it can get air under its wheels. My interest in the original build standard is negligible. But that is probably a very short-sighted and selfish position I guess? Moggy
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19 years 10 months

Posts: 8,409

Gentlemen, the subject is the Sahara P40 and subsequent trade. Veiled (and not so) references to a project in the Myanmar republic will be removed. Bruce
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19 years 10 months

Posts: 10,003

I thought this thread was for discussing the P40 in the desert ..?

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11 years 6 months

Posts: 151

It's not in the desert any more.
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19 years 10 months

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I thought it was at El Alamein? Isn't that the desert? Moggy

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19 years 10 months

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No, El Alamein is a port on the Mediterranean coast. The eponymous battle was fought in the desert inland from El Alamein.
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19 years 10 months

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That's today's "Learn something new". Thanks. I did once Google Earth El Alamein and it took me to a railway station that apeared to be some way inland. Moggy

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8 years 7 months

Posts: 6,467

Re 74 I don't often agree with your comments but, on this one, I think that you are absolutely correct; aircraft that fly are real aircraft. Bruce, I think that you are influenced by your restoration expertise. Most enthusiasts, a majority - myself included - wouldn't know, even with close scrutiny, the difference between an old airframe lightly restored and one that had had much more attention. All that matters is that the impetus towards reconstruction to flight, is maintained by enthusiasts with both energy and deep pockets. What appears to be the P40 debacle is a consequence of an ill thought out venture with few checks, balances and enforceable guarantees. Too much taken on trust by naive people with too little knowledge of international trading.
Profile picture for user Bruce

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19 years 10 months

Posts: 8,409

Bruce, I think that you are influenced by your restoration expertise. Most enthusiasts, a majority - myself included - wouldn't know, even with close scrutiny, the difference between an old airframe lightly restored and one that had had much more attention. What appears to be the P40 debacle is a consequence of an ill thought out venture with few checks, balances and enforceable guarantees. Too much taken on trust by naive people with too little knowledge of international trading.
John, on your first point, this is precisely why we should keep original unmolested examples for posterity. It doesn't matter what we as enthusiasts think ultimately. With regard to the second point, there may be an element of that. However, I submit that in part, the intention was to ensure the aircraft was saved from the coming onslaught of souvenir hunters, and to secure it awaiting completion of a trade deal. It is my understanding that an outline deal was in place prior to the coup that threw the region into disarray. Had that been foreseeable, I would agree with you wholeheartedly.

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8 years 7 months

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The 'break' clause that covers the unforeseeable event or, unintended consequence in any contract is called 'Force Majeure'. But of course, it has to be there in the first place !
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19 years 10 months

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Of course, we don't know that it wasn't, or whether it was invoked in this case!

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8 years 7 months

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At the very simplest, the contract should have incorporated a performance bond from both sides. The value of each part of the contract is estimated and each party goes to a prime joint stock bank and buys a performance bond. This bond is like an insurance. If the other party does not perform the contract as specified (ex Force Majeure) their bond is forfeit to the other party. No one gets what they really want but, the innocent don't lose out financially and the guilty get punished. These days, I expect it has all changed and everyone gets the Nobel Peace Prize instead.

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15 years 4 months

Posts: 125

Dear Mr Green, You seem to be an expert in these matters, and from your comments you must have been at the many, many of the meetings with the RAFM, British Embassy, Kennet Aviation, law firm, etc. And, the prestigious London law firm that formulated the agreements would love to have your expert opinion on their contract, as they act for so many high net worth individuals, as well as member of the Royal Family, surely they could do with your expertise and insightful opinions. So, since you are the expert and you know so much about the details of the meetings, etc., please tell me firstly, how either party failed to fulfil its part of the contract? Do you know what the terms were? You must if you say it failed. Tell us the terms of the performance bond you propose that they did not? Since you had direct contact with the Embassy in Cairo, what did they tell you about the difficulties in getting to the area of the crash site? How do you deal with foreign armies? You must be an expert. But of course, for you it is very simple. You do this all the time. I wish we had had your wonderful expertise when dealing with the Bedouin who control the area. How do you write a contract with them? And in that contract, how do you define the ransom terms? You must know. And, as well as Mr Green, I would like to thank all the other arm-chair lawyers and experts on international affairs, contracts, aircraft recovery, etc, for their after the fact contributions. I'm glad you were all there for all the meetings and negotiations. Sadly, I don't remember your faces. The Kittyhawk is not dead. It is safe. Not thanks to this forum.
At the very simplest, the contract should have incorporated a performance bond from both sides. The value of each part of the contract is estimated and each party goes to a prime joint stock bank and buys a performance bond. This bond is like an insurance. If the other party does not perform the contract as specified (ex Force Majeure) their bond is forfeit to the other party. No one gets what they really want but, the innocent don't lose out financially and the guilty get punished. These days, I expect it has all changed and everyone gets the Nobel Peace Prize instead.