Sahara P40

Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 8,399

Ah, the Horses mouth. Always a welcome perspective. None of us can judge who were not involved. We cannot debate a contract we have never seen. Bruce

Member for

13 years 8 months

Posts: 249

' The Kittyhawk is safe.' That is very good to hear. Sea Dog, thanks for posting. DD

Member for

8 years 7 months

Posts: 6,467

I wrote in general, not specific terms. All I know about the P40 business is what I glean from this forum. It seems that according to you, none of the forum members opinions and knowledge is to be trusted. Don't take it all so personally. You need broader shoulders.

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

Thank you Bruce. Yes. How does one debate something he or she knows nothing about? It seems that several are more than willing. And I ask, if a party performs to the specifications of the contract, and then there is a Force Majeure, (despot overthrown, new despot in power, top officials, both civilian and military fired) how does that work Mr Green?
Ah, the Horses mouth. Always a welcome perspective. None of us can judge who were not involved. We cannot debate a contract we have never seen. Bruce

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

Exactly!! All you know about the P-40 business you gleaned from this forum. And tell me how confident you are that your arguments could stand up in a court of law? And yes, I know of a few forum members that have some if not great knowledge of the issues at hand. Good friends, and I trust and respect their opinions. I do take it personally when those that know nothing about the details of a very delicate and intricate affair are willing to pontificate and effectively accuse someone of wrongdoing, negligence, or incompetence. I have very broad shoulders, both literally and figuratively. I have stood by for over two years and listened to armchair experts tell the world through the forum that we are a bunch of scoundrels and idiots and should not be trusted, when they know nothing of the realities of the exercise. Tell that to the Board of Directors of the RAFM. Without us the Kittyhawk would be in some smelter somewhere between Cairo and Mumbai. And I know that for a fact. What do you know for a fact?
I wrote in general, not specific terms. All I know about the P40 business is what I glean from this forum. It seems that according to you, none of the forum members opinions and knowledge is to be trusted. Don't take it all so personally. You need broader shoulders.

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

Dear Mr Burke, Just a paperwork exercise? Much of a stretch? Uncertainty? The difficult part of the recovery had already been done? Amazing. Another expert!!
I am not sure why there couldn't be a guarantee that it would return to the U.K. The team clearly had permission to be in Egypt - was it that much of a stretch that permission could have been granted for recovery and export immediately ! Clearly the aircraft was loaded into a container - it should have been a paperwork exercise for the export. What was to be gained by having a period of uncertainty when the difficult part of the recovery had already been done .

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

propstrike, pat has a history of recovering multiple airframes from a particularly tough location...plus alot of knowledge about this particular p40 and some of the more ugly goings on behind the scenes. His number one interest is/was Dennis and his family...sometimes this young man seems to have been forgotten. We need more guys like him standing up for Dennis and the thousands like him.
Tell me, what "ugly goings on behind the scenes" does this individual know? Does Pat have any more knowledge of this particular P-40 and the deliberation, arbitration, etc., than any member of the recovery team? If he does, I would love to know it. And I will buy him dinner so he can tell me. As for the pilot, we have continued to search for Dennis behind the scenes, and have found some very interesting information, despite all the false information propagated by the Italians et al. We are not all heartless *******s as depicted by the Forum cognoscenti.
Profile picture for user Moggy C

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 16,831

The Kittyhawk is not dead. It is safe. Not thanks to this forum.
It would take some leap of imagination to suggest that an Internet forum could ever ensure the safety of an airframe. In the immortal words of Douglas Adams (paraphrased) "This is a use of the word "safe" I haven't previously encountered." Moggy

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

I agree. An internet forum might never ensure the safety of an airframe. But it might endanger the survival of one. As might the Telegraph? And the Times? Etc?
It would take some leap of imagination to suggest that an Internet forum could ever ensure the safety of an airframe. In the immortal words of Douglas Adams (paraphrased) "This is a use of the word "safe" I haven't previously encountered." Moggy
Profile picture for user Moggy C

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 16,831

I agree. An internet forum might never ensure the safety of an airframe.
Odd then that you should imply that it was ever a possibility. Moggy

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

I'm sorry. When did I ever say or imply that an internet forum might ever ensure the safety of an airframe?
Odd then that you should imply that it was ever a possibility. Moggy

Member for

13 years

Posts: 8,832

If she is now near the coast one hopes that the change of climate isn't doing her any harm... Totally agree with the she is at least safe now.. It's a case of damned if you don't and damned if you do, no one including the RAF museum could have foreseen the change in circumstances in Egypt. The main thing is they are in a better position now with a hope of recovering it back to the UK than they ever were when it was sitting out in the desert, one only has to look at the damage she incurred in a short period of time after being found to see that is blatantly obvious. One just hopes she eventually makes it to a place where she will looked after and preserved as a time casual, whatever country that may be.

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

If she is now near the coast one hopes that the change of climate isn't doing her any harm... Totally agree with the she is at least safe now.. It's a case of damned if you don't and damned if you do, no one including the RAF museum could have foreseen the change in circumstances in Egypt. The main thing is they are in a better position now with a hope of recovering it back to the UK than they ever were when it was sitting out in the desert, one only has to look at the damage she incurred in a short period of time after being found to see that is blatantly obvious. One just hopes she eventually makes it to a place where she will looked after and preserved as a time casual, whatever country that may be.
Thank you!!
Profile picture for user Moggy C

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 16,831

I'm sorry. When did I ever say or imply that an internet forum might ever ensure the safety of an airframe?
This was either an implication that given different actions it might have been:-
The Kittyhawk is not dead. It is safe. Not thanks to this forum.
Or you were simply blowing smoke from your fundament. You choose. Moggy

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

Or you were simply blowing smoke from your fundament. Ah, just the cogent and witty remark one would expect from a moderator. Well done! You choose. Moggy[/QUOTE]
Profile picture for user Bruce

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 8,399

Moggy, I think you are choosing to be obtuse here. I take 'not thanks to this forum', to mean that nobody here has done anything to save the aircraft, not to suggest that our collective typing skills have done any harm. 'SeaDog' has done more than most in the causes of our hobby, and continues to do so. By his actions, the aircraft is not now a million children's toys stapled to the front of magazines. 'Safe' might be a relative term, but I'll take that over the alternative.
Profile picture for user Moggy C

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 16,831

'SeaDog' has done more than most in the causes of our hobby
Your knowledge is patently greater than mine. Moggy

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 125

Your knowledge is patently greater than mine. Moggy
Dear Mr Moggy, I am no smarter than anyone else. But, as you say, I do have knowledge of this issue, patently greater than most. I only ask that those that post of these forums (fora?) with absolute certainty as to the validity of their statements or opinions, do so with knowledge and information that is based on fact, not on some rumour, hearsay, fantasy, wantobe, innuendo, wishful thinking, old wives' tales, etc. Is that too much to ask? As ever, Seadog
Profile picture for user jeepman

Member for

15 years 6 months

Posts: 1,910

Moggy, I think you are choosing to be obtuse here. I take 'not thanks to this forum', to mean that nobody here has done anything to save the aircraft,
I think that a bit unfair Bruce - I know that at least one member of this forum sought to pass on the very first published reports about the discovery of the aircraft to the Museum's authorities. Ok it wasn't braving the shifting sands of the Sahara or chewing the cud with the Bedouin - but a journey of a thousand miles (or more in this case) has to start with a single step. Edit - and Seadog, before you jump to criticise the keyboard warrior - think on this - it was likely a keyboard warrior somewhere, perhaps on this forum, who chanced upon an obsure webpage in Italian relating to the discovery of the P40 and felt that the information was worthy of wider dissemination - perhaps with a view to seeing whether the time capsule of a wreck could be saved for posterity. You may have taken the final steps in the journey, but I'm sure you didn't take the first. They also serve who only stand and wait

Member for

19 years 10 months

Posts: 1,707

This thread has veered sharply towards a rather unedifying pissing contest. Lest we forget, this is a discussion forum for enthusiasts, not a professionals bulletin board. If you don't like "armchair experts" discussing and yes, speculating about what is in the news, then stay away. Simple.