By: Mostlyharmless
- 29th April 2015 at 17:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the Sycamore, Hunter and Spitfire were all on loan from RAFM and went back there, the former two into storage and the latter to Hendon.
The Sycamore and Hunter were at MOSIs request, im not sure about the Spitfire, that might have been recalled for Hendon.
The reasoning at the time was the collection was meant to have connections to the local area but it's a bit vague. The Shack, P1 and 707 have links but not sure about the Trident, Kamikaze aircraft or the Belvedere.
By: aeronut 2008
- 29th April 2015 at 19:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Tridents link to Manchester is easy -it was a way to get to Heathrow from Ringway. The Belvedere is a little more tenuous. Its a Bristol design from the period when Raoul Hafner was chief designer. Following his release from internment as an enemy alien Hafner worked at Ringway with the CLE/AFEE where he developed the Rotachute. No idea of a link for the Oka but its better in a museum than gathering dust at Stafford.
By: Spartabus
- 30th April 2015 at 10:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having been inside this airframe a few times, I can tell you that it is in incredible condition. It is certainly not unloved and I am lead to believe that it has the most complete interior of any AEW2, from what I have seen I do not doubt this.
By: WH904
- 17th September 2015 at 17:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, we now know that my concerns were entirely valid...
David is absolutely right, this Shack is the least at risk of all the survivors and scaremongering over a bit of dust helps no-one. We know that there are plans to revitalise the current MOSI halls and the best thing would be to monitor that rather than make unfounded assumptions about what the museum may or may not intend to do.
Dust does not equal neglect
WebPilot, David and yourself were wrong. My assumptions were correct and were not unfounded at all. Dust does equal neglect.
By: David Burke
- 17th September 2015 at 18:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Shackleton has been undercover since 1982 -its not neglected . Dust is dust -I have seen sundry pictures of the AAM aircraft with dust on them -are they neglected as well ?
The situation with the Shackleton from recall was that the RAFM had an interest in moving it to Cosford circa ten years ago . That didn't happen -I don't for any moment see that a new plan couldn't be formulated to move it to Cosford or somewhere like East Fortune if they expressed an interest.
Its by far the best preserved Shackleton in the U.K -I don't see any reason why they couldnt happen somewhere else.
By: WH904
- 17th September 2015 at 19:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
David you claimed that the Shackleton was secure. It isn't. The Museum Director states that they will leave the building. I said that the aircraft's future appeared very uncertain and it was, even though the usual "experts" claimed I was talking nonsense. It was obvious to me at the time of my visit that all the aircraft had been virtually abandoned. Now we know why. One assumes that the Shackleton will go to Cosford but there is no hangar space for it. Heaven forbid it went to East Fortune - the last thing we need is a second Shackleton being "preserved" in that part of the world, only to be destroyed a few years later.
By: Bruce
- 17th September 2015 at 20:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting. But it doesn't look like anything will happen quickly.
The sad thing is that the area will lose exhibits which have a genuine history in Manchester. As has already been said (somewhere), it would be good if the museum at Woodford could be expanded to take some of it on.
By: David Burke
- 17th September 2015 at 21:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The aircraft is on charge with the RAFM . Its not outside -its not under threat of being scrapped and there is no reason to believe the aircraft will not be cherished by the RAFM at another location. The RAFM has the ability to move aircraft around and put aircraft with other collections if it feels the need.
So whilst the future is different for her -its hardly any more different than when proposals were mooted to move her circa ten years ago.
Not really sure where you get the 'heaven forbid it go to East Fortune' slur from ! I don't recall the museum having a track record of scrapping aircraft -indeed its seems that they stepped up to the place when Cosford was busy scrapping the BA collection .
It would be a wholly appropriate place for it -the fact that another Shackleton was scrapped by a private collection in Scotland is hardly an indicator for the future of a machine within a national collection.
By: David Burke
- 17th September 2015 at 21:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce -there has always been a clear need for a museum to reflect the rich aviation heritage of the North West. Interestingly the Shackleton was by no means the first choice -a Lancaster/Lincoln being prefered. For whatever reason the museum has never really reached full potential. The likes of the EE P.1B should have gone to Manchester along with items like a Canberra nose to illustrate the world beating production.
If it has come to nothing - it will be a sad day when it finishes -constructive thought and a vision for the future is needed !
By: Meddle
- 17th September 2015 at 23:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interestingly the Shackleton was by no means the first choice -a Lancaster/Lincoln being prefered.
Well if you took the Shackleton, squinted a bit...
Funny how a few months changes everything. The St Mawgan Shackleton appears to have been saved, albeit the photos I've seen of it suggest a lot of metalwork needs replacing. Now the Manchester example is in peril! A comprehensive Woodford museum makes a lot of sense.
Odd to see the Duxford example with the blades chopped like that, though it only appears to be one blade per set (or is it just me?). Was this done purely for logistical purposes? It seems short-sighted and pointlessly destructive, but then again I know nothing of aircraft conservation. Perhaps this indicates where those four stolen blades from the WR963 stores may end up... I jest.
By: Meddle
- 17th September 2015 at 23:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peril is probably a bit strong, but it was seen as the safe Shack only a few months ago, whereas the St Mawgan specimen was at risk of rusting away where it stood. Now it seems that MOSI don't really consider the value of an air and space collection and would rather give the building back to the council. The first question should be how do they plan to get the Shackleton out of there?
New
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By: Mike J
- 17th September 2015 at 23:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Probably the same way they got it in there in the first place?
By: Meddle
- 18th September 2015 at 09:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I meant, rather, that depending on the various stakeholders' level of interest in the aircraft. It might ultimately be removed carefully, with every piece labelled and bagged with great care. Alternately it might be chopped into sections somewhat more crudely but still be restorable at the end of the day. Finally it could end up coming out in a procession of skips.
New
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By: Mike J
- 18th September 2015 at 09:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is an RAF Museum aircraft. I would think it safe to assume that it will be dismantled and transported with the same care that have recently seen the Nimrod and VC.10 moved to Cosford.
By: WH904
- 18th September 2015 at 09:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suppose it depends what you mean by Peril Moggy (btw, one of my posts seems to have been removed?). I don't imagine the Shackleton will be scrapped but it seems more than likely that it will eventually languish outside at Cosford. That's the perilous aspect of this story.
By: Bruce
- 18th September 2015 at 10:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There have been no posts removed on this thread Tim.
Meddle - the saga of the IWM Shackleton dates back to the 1987 gales, when a Broussard was blown into it and bent the propellers. Not sure why they were subsequently cut off, but those props do tend to suffer from serious intergranular corrosion which might have been an issue.
I suspect that the RAFM are not especially happy at this turn of events. The Nimrod and VC10 will have cost a small fortune to move to Cosford, and I expect the coffers to be fairly dry when it comes to more movements.
However, I think we wait and see. The director will be playing a long game. As she says, they rent the site of the aircraft museum from the council - this may just serve to put the council under some pressure to reduce the rent, or hand over the building. That said, the aircraft hall is long overdue a serious refresh.
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By: Mostlyharmless - 29th April 2015 at 17:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the Sycamore, Hunter and Spitfire were all on loan from RAFM and went back there, the former two into storage and the latter to Hendon.
The Sycamore and Hunter were at MOSIs request, im not sure about the Spitfire, that might have been recalled for Hendon.
The reasoning at the time was the collection was meant to have connections to the local area but it's a bit vague. The Shack, P1 and 707 have links but not sure about the Trident, Kamikaze aircraft or the Belvedere.
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By: aeronut 2008 - 29th April 2015 at 19:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Tridents link to Manchester is easy -it was a way to get to Heathrow from Ringway. The Belvedere is a little more tenuous. Its a Bristol design from the period when Raoul Hafner was chief designer. Following his release from internment as an enemy alien Hafner worked at Ringway with the CLE/AFEE where he developed the Rotachute. No idea of a link for the Oka but its better in a museum than gathering dust at Stafford.
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By: TwinOtter23 - 29th April 2015 at 19:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Was the Sycamore the same one that the RAFM offered for Disposal last autumn, which IIRC went to The Bristol Aero Collection?
This was at the same time as the Skeeter disposal that I believe went to NELSAM.
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By: Spartabus - 30th April 2015 at 10:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Having been inside this airframe a few times, I can tell you that it is in incredible condition. It is certainly not unloved and I am lead to believe that it has the most complete interior of any AEW2, from what I have seen I do not doubt this.
Posts: 463
By: WH904 - 17th September 2015 at 17:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, we now know that my concerns were entirely valid...
David is absolutely right, this Shack is the least at risk of all the survivors and scaremongering over a bit of dust helps no-one. We know that there are plans to revitalise the current MOSI halls and the best thing would be to monitor that rather than make unfounded assumptions about what the museum may or may not intend to do.
Dust does not equal neglect
WebPilot, David and yourself were wrong. My assumptions were correct and were not unfounded at all. Dust does equal neglect.
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By: Meddle - 17th September 2015 at 18:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Any development we should know about?
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By: David Burke - 17th September 2015 at 18:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Shackleton has been undercover since 1982 -its not neglected . Dust is dust -I have seen sundry pictures of the AAM aircraft with dust on them -are they neglected as well ?
The situation with the Shackleton from recall was that the RAFM had an interest in moving it to Cosford circa ten years ago . That didn't happen -I don't for any moment see that a new plan couldn't be formulated to move it to Cosford or somewhere like East Fortune if they expressed an interest.
Its by far the best preserved Shackleton in the U.K -I don't see any reason why they couldnt happen somewhere else.
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By: blurrkup - 17th September 2015 at 19:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?136438-Manchester-Air-and-Space
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By: WH904 - 17th September 2015 at 19:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
David you claimed that the Shackleton was secure. It isn't. The Museum Director states that they will leave the building. I said that the aircraft's future appeared very uncertain and it was, even though the usual "experts" claimed I was talking nonsense. It was obvious to me at the time of my visit that all the aircraft had been virtually abandoned. Now we know why. One assumes that the Shackleton will go to Cosford but there is no hangar space for it. Heaven forbid it went to East Fortune - the last thing we need is a second Shackleton being "preserved" in that part of the world, only to be destroyed a few years later.
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By: Bruce - 17th September 2015 at 20:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting. But it doesn't look like anything will happen quickly.
The sad thing is that the area will lose exhibits which have a genuine history in Manchester. As has already been said (somewhere), it would be good if the museum at Woodford could be expanded to take some of it on.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 17th September 2015 at 21:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The aircraft is on charge with the RAFM . Its not outside -its not under threat of being scrapped and there is no reason to believe the aircraft will not be cherished by the RAFM at another location. The RAFM has the ability to move aircraft around and put aircraft with other collections if it feels the need.
So whilst the future is different for her -its hardly any more different than when proposals were mooted to move her circa ten years ago.
Not really sure where you get the 'heaven forbid it go to East Fortune' slur from ! I don't recall the museum having a track record of scrapping aircraft -indeed its seems that they stepped up to the place when Cosford was busy scrapping the BA collection .
It would be a wholly appropriate place for it -the fact that another Shackleton was scrapped by a private collection in Scotland is hardly an indicator for the future of a machine within a national collection.
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 17th September 2015 at 21:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Bruce -there has always been a clear need for a museum to reflect the rich aviation heritage of the North West. Interestingly the Shackleton was by no means the first choice -a Lancaster/Lincoln being prefered. For whatever reason the museum has never really reached full potential. The likes of the EE P.1B should have gone to Manchester along with items like a Canberra nose to illustrate the world beating production.
If it has come to nothing - it will be a sad day when it finishes -constructive thought and a vision for the future is needed !
Maybe Ringway or Woodford can step up.
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By: Meddle - 17th September 2015 at 23:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well if you took the Shackleton, squinted a bit...
Funny how a few months changes everything. The St Mawgan Shackleton appears to have been saved, albeit the photos I've seen of it suggest a lot of metalwork needs replacing. Now the Manchester example is in peril! A comprehensive Woodford museum makes a lot of sense.
Odd to see the Duxford example with the blades chopped like that, though it only appears to be one blade per set (or is it just me?). Was this done purely for logistical purposes? It seems short-sighted and pointlessly destructive, but then again I know nothing of aircraft conservation. Perhaps this indicates where those four stolen blades from the WR963 stores may end up... I jest.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 17th September 2015 at 23:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nothing I have read above, from those who know what they are talking about, indicates it's in any peril at all.
Moggy
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By: Meddle - 17th September 2015 at 23:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peril is probably a bit strong, but it was seen as the safe Shack only a few months ago, whereas the St Mawgan specimen was at risk of rusting away where it stood. Now it seems that MOSI don't really consider the value of an air and space collection and would rather give the building back to the council. The first question should be how do they plan to get the Shackleton out of there?
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By: Mike J - 17th September 2015 at 23:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Probably the same way they got it in there in the first place?
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By: Meddle - 18th September 2015 at 09:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I meant, rather, that depending on the various stakeholders' level of interest in the aircraft. It might ultimately be removed carefully, with every piece labelled and bagged with great care. Alternately it might be chopped into sections somewhat more crudely but still be restorable at the end of the day. Finally it could end up coming out in a procession of skips.
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J - 18th September 2015 at 09:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is an RAF Museum aircraft. I would think it safe to assume that it will be dismantled and transported with the same care that have recently seen the Nimrod and VC.10 moved to Cosford.
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By: WH904 - 18th September 2015 at 09:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suppose it depends what you mean by Peril Moggy (btw, one of my posts seems to have been removed?). I don't imagine the Shackleton will be scrapped but it seems more than likely that it will eventually languish outside at Cosford. That's the perilous aspect of this story.
Incidentally, our Shackleton special is now on sale - www.aeroplaneicons.com
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By: Bruce - 18th September 2015 at 10:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There have been no posts removed on this thread Tim.
Meddle - the saga of the IWM Shackleton dates back to the 1987 gales, when a Broussard was blown into it and bent the propellers. Not sure why they were subsequently cut off, but those props do tend to suffer from serious intergranular corrosion which might have been an issue.
I suspect that the RAFM are not especially happy at this turn of events. The Nimrod and VC10 will have cost a small fortune to move to Cosford, and I expect the coffers to be fairly dry when it comes to more movements.
However, I think we wait and see. The director will be playing a long game. As she says, they rent the site of the aircraft museum from the council - this may just serve to put the council under some pressure to reduce the rent, or hand over the building. That said, the aircraft hall is long overdue a serious refresh.