By: David_Kavangh
- 6th July 2015 at 10:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sideslip, you are quite correct. The Flight moved from Coltishall to Coningsby on 1st March 1976. The mid upper gun turret was fitted at Coningsby on 18 March 1976, so the photo was taken between 18 March 1976 and 1979 when the AJ-G codes were added.
By: Air Ministry
- 6th July 2015 at 14:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My questions remain unfortunately. Did all Lancasters built before mid 1945 have two escape hatches?
Did all Lancasters built after mid 1945 have just one hatch?
I think the answer lies less in when the airframe was manufactured and more in which mid upper turret the particular airframe was intended to have, i.e. FN50 or 150 in "traditional" position = two escape hatches (BI/III/BX), Glenn Martin or FN150 in "forward" position = only one escape hatch (BX(later)/BVII/BVII INTERIM).
By: MikeHoulder
- 6th July 2015 at 16:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Air Ministry, thank you very much for the two great photos. You've solved my problem.
The turret is the key. I should have checked & checked again. But in fact, my Avro drawing D.4395, "GA of fuselage", is for the Glenn-Martin turret, but does not say so. I had some misgivings about the short distance shown between the cockpit & the turret location, but didn't follow them up. I should also have taken account of the relatively high drawing number, 4395. My apologies to all for this bad error on my part.
I should have been looking instead at D.1629, "GA of fuselage", last amended 14-9-37. Although that is an uncomfortably early date, it is stated as valid for both Manchester & Lancaster I & II.
A quick comparison between D.4395 and D.1629 shows all the frames in the same locations which is a relief.
The location of the Glenn-Martin turret between frames 19 to 22 is centred on the rear escape hatch location between frames 20 & 21 . The length front to rear of the rear hatch is 18 3/8" which is just about 0.5" shorter than the front hatch.
The fault was my laziness. D.1629 is in a different less used database to D.4395 in my system.
One interesting thought to leave you with, either the addition of a different aircraft, i.e. the Lancaster I & II added to a drawing validity list for the Manchester, does not count as an amendment and is not recorded or the date 14-9-37 is a very early one to have a detailed drawing of the Lancaster. Could this change some myths about the genesis of the Lanc?
There are quite a few posts that credit 44 Squadron as “caring” for the aircraft which is not quite correct. Being on RAF charge, the aircraft may have been allocated to 44 squadron for administration purposes but, back in the 1960s the Waddington Wing was on Centralised Servicing and none of the squadrons had any technical personnel. PA474 was restored and maintained under Mechanical Engineering Aircraft Squadron (MEAS) by a team of SNCOs many of whom were WW2 veterans with Lancaster experience. Also, none of the 44 Squadron aircrew had current tail wheel heavy aircraft experience and the original crews that flew PA474 were Hastings crew from RAF Lindholme. 44 Squadron’s contribution to her care was minimal. In 1968 and 1969 I was privileged to work on PA474 doing extensive rewiring of the perished rubber insulated 1945 wiring and installing an inverter system to power a TACAN system to enable the aircraft to find its way around the country.
As regards emergency escape hatches, A.P. 2062 A & C Vol 1 Sect. 3 paragraph 8 states there are three - “(i) In the cockpit canopy above the pilot’s cockpit (ii) In the intermediate centre portion (iii) In the centre rear portion above the end of the main floor”.
Posts: 985
By: David_Kavangh - 6th July 2015 at 10:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sideslip, you are quite correct. The Flight moved from Coltishall to Coningsby on 1st March 1976. The mid upper gun turret was fitted at Coningsby on 18 March 1976, so the photo was taken between 18 March 1976 and 1979 when the AJ-G codes were added.
Posts: 1,751
By: Bruggen 130 - 6th July 2015 at 10:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The turret was started to be fitted at Coningsby round about the 18 march 76, she did a display in Holland on 4 may and it was finished by then.
Posts: 1,919
By: Air Ministry - 6th July 2015 at 14:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the answer lies less in when the airframe was manufactured and more in which mid upper turret the particular airframe was intended to have, i.e. FN50 or 150 in "traditional" position = two escape hatches (BI/III/BX), Glenn Martin or FN150 in "forward" position = only one escape hatch (BX(later)/BVII/BVII INTERIM).
Unless I've misunderstood your question?
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Posts: 245
By: MikeHoulder - 6th July 2015 at 16:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Air Ministry, thank you very much for the two great photos. You've solved my problem.
The turret is the key. I should have checked & checked again. But in fact, my Avro drawing D.4395, "GA of fuselage", is for the Glenn-Martin turret, but does not say so. I had some misgivings about the short distance shown between the cockpit & the turret location, but didn't follow them up. I should also have taken account of the relatively high drawing number, 4395. My apologies to all for this bad error on my part.
I should have been looking instead at D.1629, "GA of fuselage", last amended 14-9-37. Although that is an uncomfortably early date, it is stated as valid for both Manchester & Lancaster I & II.
A quick comparison between D.4395 and D.1629 shows all the frames in the same locations which is a relief.
The location of the Glenn-Martin turret between frames 19 to 22 is centred on the rear escape hatch location between frames 20 & 21 . The length front to rear of the rear hatch is 18 3/8" which is just about 0.5" shorter than the front hatch.
The fault was my laziness. D.1629 is in a different less used database to D.4395 in my system.
One interesting thought to leave you with, either the addition of a different aircraft, i.e. the Lancaster I & II added to a drawing validity list for the Manchester, does not count as an amendment and is not recorded or the date 14-9-37 is a very early one to have a detailed drawing of the Lancaster. Could this change some myths about the genesis of the Lanc?
Mike
Posts: 1
By: Frank 124 - 6th August 2022 at 15:27 Permalink
There are quite a few posts that credit 44 Squadron as “caring” for the aircraft which is not quite correct. Being on RAF charge, the aircraft may have been allocated to 44 squadron for administration purposes but, back in the 1960s the Waddington Wing was on Centralised Servicing and none of the squadrons had any technical personnel. PA474 was restored and maintained under Mechanical Engineering Aircraft Squadron (MEAS) by a team of SNCOs many of whom were WW2 veterans with Lancaster experience. Also, none of the 44 Squadron aircrew had current tail wheel heavy aircraft experience and the original crews that flew PA474 were Hastings crew from RAF Lindholme. 44 Squadron’s contribution to her care was minimal. In 1968 and 1969 I was privileged to work on PA474 doing extensive rewiring of the perished rubber insulated 1945 wiring and installing an inverter system to power a TACAN system to enable the aircraft to find its way around the country.
As regards emergency escape hatches, A.P. 2062 A & C Vol 1 Sect. 3 paragraph 8 states there are three - “(i) In the cockpit canopy above the pilot’s cockpit (ii) In the intermediate centre portion (iii) In the centre rear portion above the end of the main floor”.