By: Newforest
- 24th August 2015 at 16:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
eemmmmm!!!! NOT me I am afraid!!
Wish I knew whom it was though, is there anyway to find out do you know please?
The Forum member 'pistonrob' last visited the Forum in February 2015, so not likely to come across this thread anytime soon. Check out his details by clicking on his name and you will find several links to him, one of which should elicit a response.
By: trumper
- 24th August 2015 at 16:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Forum member 'pistonrob' last visited the Forum in February 2015, so not likely to come across this thread anytime soon. Check out his details by clicking on his name and you will find several links to him, one of which should elicit a response.
These are his details,i would love to know what the link is between Dianesowden and him and this accident? http://forum.keypublishing.com/member.php?31322-pistonrob of all the planes ,aircrew and crashes throughout ww2 -quite a coincidence.
By: dianesowden
- 2nd September 2015 at 17:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Got the report of Stanley James Accident today!!
Here is what it says:
Report of flying accident on 13th January 1945
W/O Russell a pilot of 60.O.U.T.accompanied by a staff Navigator and 4 pupil Navigator took off in Anson MK.890 at 23.30 hours on the 12th January 1945, to carry out a night GEE and map reading exercise. His course was to be: BASE NESWTON NANTWICH RUGELEY LEAMINGTON TEWKEBURY BRIDGNOTH OSWESTRY STONE MUCH WENLCK BASE. This route is elastic and depends to a great degree on instructions from the staff navigator. Moreover, at briefing pilots had be told to stay in the north of the area, if the weather was indifferent in the south.
At 01.55 W/O Russell was seen by Mr. C H Weaver flying fairly low on a southerly course: the starboard navigation light waws above two white lights. This suggests that the aircraft was either banked to port, or that it was on its back. The latter postulate seems the most likely, and this is also borne out by the technical evidence: the only cylinder remaining attached to the starboard engine was on at the bottom of the engine, where it was protected by a propeller blade.
After passing almost overhead, Mr C H Weaver states that the engine sound changed to a scream and the aircraft dived into the ground.
Weather conditions at the time of the accident were: visibility 3 miles clouds 10/10th of 1300 feet Wind N E 8 MPH Weather slight mist. .
FINDINGS OF THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER f/lt f white (8.1.45.)
The pilot was fully briefed. The flight properly authorised, the weather suitable and the aircraft serviceable for the flight. The primary case of the accident was, in his opinion, loss of control at night: it is considered that the technical evidence is not sufficiently conclusive to point to engine failure.
It is noteworthy that this pilot had been off flying for two days prior to the accident on account of a bad cold and it is considered that this may have been a contributory factor.
REMARKS OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER (19.1.45)
I can add nothing to the conclusions of the Investigating Officer detailed above. Seems unlikely that a pilot with 600 hours to his credit would have efficiency so impaired by the after effects of a cold that he would utterly lost control of an Anson aircraft. W/O Russell had not reported sick or been treated by the M O.
REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING
Agrees with the finding of the Investigating officer, but does not consider the after erect of the cold could have caused the pilot to lose control of the aircraft.
REMARKSW OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING IN CHIEF
Remarks of the group commander are concurred in.
By: Moggy C
- 2nd September 2015 at 18:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
REMARKS OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER (19.1.45)
I can add nothing to the conclusions of the Investigating Officer detailed above. Seems unlikely that a pilot with 600 hours to his credit would have efficiency so impaired by the after effects of a cold that he would utterly lost control of an Anson aircraft. W/O Russell had not reported sick or been treated by the M O.
REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING
Agrees with the finding of the Investigating officer, but does not consider the after erect of the cold could have caused the pilot to lose control of the aircraft.
REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING IN CHIEF
Remarks of the group commander are concurred in.
This looks like a lot of a*se-covering to me.
A bad cold can frequently affect the delicate balance organs in the ear and even pilots with considerably greater instrument flying experience than Warrant Officer Russell have fallen victim to 'The Leans'.
By: dianesowden
- 2nd September 2015 at 18:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This looks like a lot of a*se-covering to me.
A bad cold can frequently affect the delicate balance organs in the ear and even pilots with considerably greater instrument flying experience than Warrant Officer Russell have fallen victim to 'The Leans'.
Moggy
So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.
By: trumper
- 2nd September 2015 at 19:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.
A cold would/could block his ear,nose,sinuses which keep your balance senses in trim ,tells you whether you are leaning,stationary,correct way up,it's wiki but the basics are there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system.
If you stand in a dark room how do you know which is correct? ,add noise ,confusion,tiredness and dont forget it only takes a second to lose alot of height .
By: dianesowden
- 2nd September 2015 at 20:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A cold would/could block his ear,nose,sinuses which keep your balance senses in trim ,tells you whether you are leaning,stationary,correct way up,it's wiki but the basics are there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system.
If you stand in a dark room how do you know which is correct? ,add noise ,confusion,tiredness and dont forget it only takes a second to lose alot of height .
So the crash was caused by Russell having a cold and not going to the M O to be signed of work then?
By: trumper
- 2nd September 2015 at 20:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So the crash was caused by Russell having a cold and not going to the M O to be signed of work then?
No thats not what the report says,it MAY have been a factor but only may.Unfortunately you will never know ,they are only theories at best.The aircraft was ok [as best as they could tell] ,the weather was ok ,the pilot had had a cold but hadn't gone to the M O so unfortunately how badly it affected him we will never know,all theories.
By: Moggy C
- 2nd September 2015 at 21:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.
If you look at the weather it was overcast (10/10 cloud) at 1300ft, which is low.
Flying at night you can do by looking out of the window, even in the dark you will generally get an horizon. But flying in cloud you have to rely totally on your instruments, the window doesn't help you. The problem is that your senses will often tell you a different story from the instruments and there is simply no way around it, you HAVE to rely on your instruments and ignore your perception. That's hard to do when your senses are telling you that you are dropping out of the sky, even though your instruments say you aren't.
We don't know how much instrument time Russell had logged, but it might not have been a huge amount (by the standards of a modern airline pilot say). Now if his balance organs were affected by his cold then he might have found the messages he was getting too acute to ignore.
Only two things would make an Anson appear from the sky upside down, either pilot disorientation or a cataclysmic airframe failure. But also remember we have only one witness and a little physical evidence that this was the case, and eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
We won't solve this mystery here. But what I have suggested is one possible scenario.
By: John Aeroclub
- 2nd September 2015 at 21:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As Moggy has already pointed out, a bad head cold can seriously affect ones ability to fly accurately. The pilot had a number instruments in front of him to enable him to fly blind. Of these the Turn and Bank Indicator and an Artificial horizon as well as his Airspeed indicator were the most important. If he lost concentration or he had difficulty reading these (or a fault had occurred) and instead he relied on his own impaired senses he would soon lose control. The GEE mentioned was a radar navigation equipment. This report seems to make nonsense of much of the so called eye witness reports in the earlier posts.
Posts: 39
By: dianesowden - 24th August 2015 at 14:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
WELL DONE on finding my website!!
You now know that I do other things other than researching my uncle!!
Posts: 8,847
By: Newforest - 24th August 2015 at 16:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Forum member 'pistonrob' last visited the Forum in February 2015, so not likely to come across this thread anytime soon. Check out his details by clicking on his name and you will find several links to him, one of which should elicit a response.
Posts: 7,025
By: trumper - 24th August 2015 at 16:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
These are his details,i would love to know what the link is between Dianesowden and him and this accident? http://forum.keypublishing.com/member.php?31322-pistonrob of all the planes ,aircrew and crashes throughout ww2 -quite a coincidence.
Posts: 39
By: dianesowden - 24th August 2015 at 17:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have just sent pistonrob a private message asking who he is!! Never heard of him before!!
Posts: 8,847
By: Newforest - 24th August 2015 at 19:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I doubt whether he will be any relation or acquaintance of yours, just an aviation historian interested in this accident. Good luck!
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 24th August 2015 at 21:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pistonrob said he was doing the research for a relative of Margrie's
Posts: 39
By: dianesowden - 24th August 2015 at 21:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hope that he answers my private message!!
Posts: 39
By: dianesowden - 2nd September 2015 at 17:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Got the report of Stanley James Accident today!!
Here is what it says:
Report of flying accident on 13th January 1945
W/O Russell a pilot of 60.O.U.T.accompanied by a staff Navigator and 4 pupil Navigator took off in Anson MK.890 at 23.30 hours on the 12th January 1945, to carry out a night GEE and map reading exercise. His course was to be: BASE NESWTON NANTWICH RUGELEY LEAMINGTON TEWKEBURY BRIDGNOTH OSWESTRY STONE MUCH WENLCK BASE. This route is elastic and depends to a great degree on instructions from the staff navigator. Moreover, at briefing pilots had be told to stay in the north of the area, if the weather was indifferent in the south.
At 01.55 W/O Russell was seen by Mr. C H Weaver flying fairly low on a southerly course: the starboard navigation light waws above two white lights. This suggests that the aircraft was either banked to port, or that it was on its back. The latter postulate seems the most likely, and this is also borne out by the technical evidence: the only cylinder remaining attached to the starboard engine was on at the bottom of the engine, where it was protected by a propeller blade.
After passing almost overhead, Mr C H Weaver states that the engine sound changed to a scream and the aircraft dived into the ground.
Weather conditions at the time of the accident were: visibility 3 miles clouds 10/10th of 1300 feet Wind N E 8 MPH Weather slight mist. .
FINDINGS OF THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER f/lt f white (8.1.45.)
The pilot was fully briefed. The flight properly authorised, the weather suitable and the aircraft serviceable for the flight. The primary case of the accident was, in his opinion, loss of control at night: it is considered that the technical evidence is not sufficiently conclusive to point to engine failure.
It is noteworthy that this pilot had been off flying for two days prior to the accident on account of a bad cold and it is considered that this may have been a contributory factor.
REMARKS OF THE COMMANDING OFFICER (19.1.45)
I can add nothing to the conclusions of the Investigating Officer detailed above. Seems unlikely that a pilot with 600 hours to his credit would have efficiency so impaired by the after effects of a cold that he would utterly lost control of an Anson aircraft. W/O Russell had not reported sick or been treated by the M O.
REMARKS OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING
Agrees with the finding of the Investigating officer, but does not consider the after erect of the cold could have caused the pilot to lose control of the aircraft.
REMARKSW OF THE AIR OFFICER COMMANDING IN CHIEF
Remarks of the group commander are concurred in.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 2nd September 2015 at 18:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This looks like a lot of a*se-covering to me.
A bad cold can frequently affect the delicate balance organs in the ear and even pilots with considerably greater instrument flying experience than Warrant Officer Russell have fallen victim to 'The Leans'.
Moggy
Posts: 39
By: dianesowden - 2nd September 2015 at 18:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So you mean the cold would have caused him not to know where he was then in the sky? Is that why he was upside down as he was coming down.
Posts: 7,025
By: trumper - 2nd September 2015 at 19:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A cold would/could block his ear,nose,sinuses which keep your balance senses in trim ,tells you whether you are leaning,stationary,correct way up,it's wiki but the basics are there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_system.
If you stand in a dark room how do you know which is correct? ,add noise ,confusion,tiredness and dont forget it only takes a second to lose alot of height .
Posts: 39
By: dianesowden - 2nd September 2015 at 20:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So the crash was caused by Russell having a cold and not going to the M O to be signed of work then?
Posts: 7,025
By: trumper - 2nd September 2015 at 20:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No thats not what the report says,it MAY have been a factor but only may.Unfortunately you will never know ,they are only theories at best.The aircraft was ok [as best as they could tell] ,the weather was ok ,the pilot had had a cold but hadn't gone to the M O so unfortunately how badly it affected him we will never know,all theories.
Posts: 16,832
By: Moggy C - 2nd September 2015 at 21:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you look at the weather it was overcast (10/10 cloud) at 1300ft, which is low.
Flying at night you can do by looking out of the window, even in the dark you will generally get an horizon. But flying in cloud you have to rely totally on your instruments, the window doesn't help you. The problem is that your senses will often tell you a different story from the instruments and there is simply no way around it, you HAVE to rely on your instruments and ignore your perception. That's hard to do when your senses are telling you that you are dropping out of the sky, even though your instruments say you aren't.
We don't know how much instrument time Russell had logged, but it might not have been a huge amount (by the standards of a modern airline pilot say). Now if his balance organs were affected by his cold then he might have found the messages he was getting too acute to ignore.
Watch this two minute video to give you some sense of what can happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7t4IR-3mSo
Only two things would make an Anson appear from the sky upside down, either pilot disorientation or a cataclysmic airframe failure. But also remember we have only one witness and a little physical evidence that this was the case, and eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable.
We won't solve this mystery here. But what I have suggested is one possible scenario.
Moggy
Posts: 2,766
By: John Aeroclub - 2nd September 2015 at 21:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As Moggy has already pointed out, a bad head cold can seriously affect ones ability to fly accurately. The pilot had a number instruments in front of him to enable him to fly blind. Of these the Turn and Bank Indicator and an Artificial horizon as well as his Airspeed indicator were the most important. If he lost concentration or he had difficulty reading these (or a fault had occurred) and instead he relied on his own impaired senses he would soon lose control. The GEE mentioned was a radar navigation equipment. This report seems to make nonsense of much of the so called eye witness reports in the earlier posts.
John