Firstly: For the part-number starting 82, try Curtiss Model 82 Seamew. I think the RN, FAA had some of these. As far as I can remember, AM, you had another part that I had suggested was Curtiss and you were going to go look it up next time you were at Kew. Not sure that you came back to it. Maybe the same part?
On your quadrant: I don't think there is any doubt it is Boston/Havoc. The reason why it doesn't have the rivet line is because it was never installed; its a spare. The main bolts do match well.
By: Air Ministry
- 3rd April 2020 at 15:55Permalink- Edited 3rd April 2020 at 18:56
Hi Nicko, and thanks for returning to this thread.
Regarding the "Boston" quadrant, it has definitely been installed. If you turn it over, you can see the chopped through remains of the actuator tubes attached to the foot of the levers. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a single piece of "New Old Stock" in that scrap pile, everything had clearly been hacked out of an airframe during its final breaking down into renderable bits.
I see what you mean about the other screws though. I was hoping someone might turn up a better view of a Boston Bombardier's position, perhaps of another version where the panelling has been revised, doing away with all those rivets?
It's been on the F/B site for over a day now, with no comments as yet but fingers still crossed.
Regarding the other, non-Mitchell item , yes, this is the piece you suggested might be Curtiss Seamew. Sadly, that Air Publication is still on my "to do" list for Kew - maybe later this year?
Meanwhile, I've had another search on the net and have turned up a couple of images, neither of which is of much help.
One is from flight-manuals-online and shows the cockpit of a SOC3-2C which is a British version Seamew but sadly the edge of this stops just short of where the trim controls would probably be (!). The other is a small image containing some official shots recording the layout of the prototype XSOC3-1. I've highlighted what look to me to be the trimmers. The item I've marked as "?" looks like it might be an aileron trimmer? Perhaps this was altered for production versions?
The only other clue that I've uncovered is this partial view of a Curtiss Helldiver cockpit showing the trimmer controls. Not the same, but very similar designs, including the dial indicators and especially that handwheel?
By: Air Ministry
- 6th April 2020 at 18:29Permalink
Three days on and I'm back with another round of pointless self-flagellation.
This time it's the Cowling Gill Control winding mechanism illustrated back up the thread.
I've cleaned it up a little and a few more stamps have been revealed. I'm also pleased to say that the mechanism has freed off and it now works as advertised.
These illustrations have been updated with the new discoveries. I'm particularly intrigued by the tiny stamp on the pointer which appears to be a circle with D : A, where ":" represents a tiny, two bladed propellor. Could this be something to do with Dowty, i.e. propellors?
The threads appear to be B.A., so it's British as far as I can tell. The other Part Nos. start with either AHE or HE and the manufacturers logo "H/A" is surely recognisable by someone with the appropriate expertise?
The sheer variety of stamps and markings must make it a candidate for the Facebook group, even though the response to the previous two items has been rather poor, imho.
Brad, if you are still around, would you mind upping this one too? Maybe third time lucky?
By: Air Ministry
- 20th April 2020 at 16:55Permalink
Oh well, the F/b Factory Stamps Group has been quiet about my other items so far, apart from a few "likes" . Sheesh, these young 'uns...
Meanwhile, my own investigations continue and here's something from earlier in the thread that has had me absolutely mystified as to its origin and purpose until a deep clean revealed a partial part number that was just enough to set me thinking.
The answer has been staring me in the face all along. It seems to be a standard item on Armstrong Whitworth machines of a certain era and it is a rudder pedal adjuster.
The bottom AW cockpit picture looks interesting particularly the control column. Never seen that before any chance of scanning the whole of the cockpit picture/drawing? Thankyou.
By: Whitley_Project
- 27th April 2020 at 16:22Permalink- Edited 27th April 2020 at 16:39
Did I hear my name?.... ?
The real question I want the answer to is has Air Min actually taken the plunge and joined Facebook!
The AW part is not Whitley, granted i'm away from my archive but I do not recognise it, so I think it is Albermarle. That said, I would still be interested in it as I have managed to collect up a number of Albermarle parts along the way.
AM, your British trim unit I believe was made by Blackburn. Your D8A stamp (the 8 represents the propeller) looks just like the B8A stamp from Blackburn. It's a little convoluted, but I have seen a similar stamp L8A on Barracuda parts made by Blackburn. I believe your D8A stamp is a similar variation.
Blackburn had factories in Leeds (L8A), Brough (B8A) and Dumbarton (D8A). There is nothing in print about those stamps, that is my educated deduction and I hope it helps you. It's logical and seems to fit in with the stamp letters and where the Blackburn factories were located.
I know the Dumbarton factory was involved in the manufacture of Short Sunderlands....... So my guess is Sunderland, a Blackburn aircraft (Skua, Roc, Botha) or another aircraft sub-contracted to them such as the Barracuda. Either way, that trim unit definately has a salty vibe about it.
Looking at the unit, it's probably from a single engined aircraft.
By: Air Ministry
- 28th April 2020 at 14:50Permalink- Edited 28th April 2020 at 14:52
I was looking on the wrong page all along...
Thanks for coming back to the thread Elliott, and you've scored another point!
I hadn't made the Blackburn connection (factory stamps aren't my thing really) but your suggestions had me heading back to my gigabytes of cockpit photos for another look.
I had already discounted the Roc and Skua - similar looking handle but a different mounting.
I'd also made two mistakes here - allowing myself to become convinced that I was looking for a fairly obscure, pre-war, single engined machine and that all engine controls would either be in a quadrant or somewhere on the port cockpit side, so I wasn't thinking in the right box, or looking at the right page.
Your suggestion of Botha had me looking at it again - nope, nothing on the port side. Then I looked at the starboard side, in the top, far corner. Only Blackburn....
Now, you say that the A.W. winding wheel isn't from a Whitley? Have a look at this illustration from AP1522E Vol I. It's a bit murky, but isn't that the same handwheel behind the rudder pedals (must have been awkward to use)?
Lastly, why would you ask about F/B? I've already described my only F/B experience. Hawker1966 has been posting some of my items on the Factory Stamps Group but the response has been poor.
Here's the problem. Despite my youthful good looks, adonis figure and full head of wavy brown hair, I'm pushing 70 which puts me in the massive majority of over 65s who don't do facebook. Add to that the fact that I'm amongst the least sociable people I know, and I doubt the F/B experience is really for me.
By: Whitley_Project
- 28th April 2020 at 16:10Permalink
Blackburn Botha - who'd have thought! A tribute to your perseverance and collection of manuals Air Min.
Regarding the rudder pedal adjuster, it is definately not Whitley i'm afraid. Believe me, I wish it was! So far I have collected two types of Whitley rudder pedal adjuster, I think of them as early and late pattern types. They are of the star wheel type seen below and cast in aluminium and run along a steel shaft with an acme type thread. I think that's what's shown in your Whitley picture. Please see my picture below
I understand your reluctance to use FB, I am similar. However, the game changer for me was the groups, there are so many and they are often so interesting and focused, bringing together people with like minded interests from all over the globe, a little like how this forum used to be, but on steroids.
Regarding your mystery American bomb levers, that factory stamp group is mainly German/UK centric and i'm not sure the best place to ask. You are more likely to get a response if you try the Warbird Information Exchange group (WIX) or start searching for more specific groups - there will be groups dedicated to the B-24 and Havoc too, and you could also ask there. Just my humble suggestion. You could also seek out Paul Bellamy, he is very good at identifying American stuff.
By: Air Ministry
- 28th April 2020 at 17:02Permalink
Perhaps I need to persuade Margaret that she needs a f/b account - she's far more sociable than I and would soon have lots of friends, then I can "piggyback"?
Meanwhile, here's yet another item that has defied identification so far. It's just a small cast wheel on the front of a paxolin (or similar) body and is some kind of teleflex device, maybe?.
I've given it a gentle clean and am now fairly certain the markings are as I've indicated on the photo.
Hawker (or Elliott) please feel free to post on f/b. TIA.
By: Air Ministry
- 29th April 2020 at 13:36Permalink
Hi HMS, nice to see you back!
Yes, the stamps could start with "F" rather than "P". I think I said as much when I first posted this item - it's just that, having cleaned the wheel as carefully as I can, it looks more like "P"? There's so much surface corrosion it really is a guess as to which it is.
You're spot on with your id though. Here's the Applecore rudder pedestal. I'd better start looking through my Fairey photo files.
By: Air Ministry
- 30th April 2020 at 19:54Permalink
I'm trawling through various Fairey cockpit photos but no luck so far. Done all the Barracuda variants and about half the Firefly variants (there's a lot of them!) and have most if not all the Gannet ones but am gaining the impression I need to go a bit further back in time, so I'll be looking at the Swordfish, Albacore, Fulmar etc.
Meantime, I was having a tidy of the garage and came across this lever. I'm used to seeing this design on American throttle quadrants but I'm puzzling over the markings on the knob. It is clearly an "R" within a "C". Definitely a "C", not a complete circle and the two letters are picked out in white paint.
Can anyone explain this? I'm used to "T", "P" and "M" etc but don't recall this one. No stamps or part numbers to be seen unfortunately. Is their a Facebook Group for airplane levers with no markings?
By: Whitley_Project
- 1st May 2020 at 16:36Permalink- Edited 1st May 2020 at 17:38
Your PM/FM item really looks like a teleflex controller of some type as you already said. I’m sure you know this AM but they had numerous applications including use as CSU controls, engine auxiliaries, propeller governors, throttle controls, fuel tank selectors, wireless equipment controllers etc.
That may help you focus your research.
I emailed you some possibilities for the PM stamp.
I also posted your American CR lever in the WIX group...
Posts: 774
By: hawker1966 - 1st April 2020 at 20:29 Permalink
Will do AM
I will put it on shortly
Posts: 282
By: Nicko - 2nd April 2020 at 06:17 Permalink
No don't do it! I don't like facebook.
Firstly: For the part-number starting 82, try Curtiss Model 82 Seamew. I think the RN, FAA had some of these. As far as I can remember, AM, you had another part that I had suggested was Curtiss and you were going to go look it up next time you were at Kew. Not sure that you came back to it. Maybe the same part?
On your quadrant: I don't think there is any doubt it is Boston/Havoc. The reason why it doesn't have the rivet line is because it was never installed; its a spare. The main bolts do match well.
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 3rd April 2020 at 15:55 Permalink - Edited 3rd April 2020 at 18:56
Hi Nicko, and thanks for returning to this thread.
Regarding the "Boston" quadrant, it has definitely been installed. If you turn it over, you can see the chopped through remains of the actuator tubes attached to the foot of the levers. Also, I don't recall ever seeing a single piece of "New Old Stock" in that scrap pile, everything had clearly been hacked out of an airframe during its final breaking down into renderable bits.
I see what you mean about the other screws though. I was hoping someone might turn up a better view of a Boston Bombardier's position, perhaps of another version where the panelling has been revised, doing away with all those rivets?
It's been on the F/B site for over a day now, with no comments as yet but fingers still crossed.
Regarding the other, non-Mitchell item , yes, this is the piece you suggested might be Curtiss Seamew. Sadly, that Air Publication is still on my "to do" list for Kew - maybe later this year?
Meanwhile, I've had another search on the net and have turned up a couple of images, neither of which is of much help.
One is from flight-manuals-online and shows the cockpit of a SOC3-2C which is a British version Seamew but sadly the edge of this stops just short of where the trim controls would probably be (!). The other is a small image containing some official shots recording the layout of the prototype XSOC3-1. I've highlighted what look to me to be the trimmers. The item I've marked as "?" looks like it might be an aileron trimmer? Perhaps this was altered for production versions?
The only other clue that I've uncovered is this partial view of a Curtiss Helldiver cockpit showing the trimmer controls. Not the same, but very similar designs, including the dial indicators and especially that handwheel?
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 6th April 2020 at 18:29 Permalink
Three days on and I'm back with another round of pointless self-flagellation.
This time it's the Cowling Gill Control winding mechanism illustrated back up the thread.
I've cleaned it up a little and a few more stamps have been revealed. I'm also pleased to say that the mechanism has freed off and it now works as advertised.
These illustrations have been updated with the new discoveries. I'm particularly intrigued by the tiny stamp on the pointer which appears to be a circle with D : A, where ":" represents a tiny, two bladed propellor. Could this be something to do with Dowty, i.e. propellors?
The threads appear to be B.A., so it's British as far as I can tell. The other Part Nos. start with either AHE or HE and the manufacturers logo "H/A" is surely recognisable by someone with the appropriate expertise?
The sheer variety of stamps and markings must make it a candidate for the Facebook group, even though the response to the previous two items has been rather poor, imho.
Brad, if you are still around, would you mind upping this one too? Maybe third time lucky?
Posts: 774
By: hawker1966 - 6th April 2020 at 19:34 Permalink - Edited 6th April 2020 at 19:48
Hi AM
Let’s give it a go
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 20th April 2020 at 16:55 Permalink
Oh well, the F/b Factory Stamps Group has been quiet about my other items so far, apart from a few "likes" . Sheesh, these young 'uns...
Meanwhile, my own investigations continue and here's something from earlier in the thread that has had me absolutely mystified as to its origin and purpose until a deep clean revealed a partial part number that was just enough to set me thinking.
The answer has been staring me in the face all along. It seems to be a standard item on Armstrong Whitworth machines of a certain era and it is a rudder pedal adjuster.
One less to worry about!
Posts: 1,424
By: FLY.BUY - 20th April 2020 at 17:30 Permalink
The bottom AW cockpit picture looks interesting particularly the control column. Never seen that before any chance of scanning the whole of the cockpit picture/drawing? Thankyou.
Posts: 2,004
By: ian_ - 20th April 2020 at 17:46 Permalink
Whitley or Albermarle then? This would be a good test of whether Elliott is still with us!
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 21st April 2020 at 13:59 Permalink
I'm on a roll here.
I suggested that this item might be from a B24 Liberator way back on page 1 of this thread.
Here's a page from the B24D manual illustrating the landing gear hand crank. Looks like a pretty good match to me?
Posts: 774
By: hawker1966 - 21st April 2020 at 16:56 Permalink
Nice find
Posts: 5,999
By: Wyvernfan - 21st April 2020 at 19:21 Permalink
As usual some really intriguing items AM - please keep them coming.
This thread is one of the only reasons I’ve just signed into this shambles of a forum!
Posts: 2,835
By: Whitley_Project - 27th April 2020 at 16:22 Permalink - Edited 27th April 2020 at 16:39
Did I hear my name?.... ?
The real question I want the answer to is has Air Min actually taken the plunge and joined Facebook!
The AW part is not Whitley, granted i'm away from my archive but I do not recognise it, so I think it is Albermarle. That said, I would still be interested in it as I have managed to collect up a number of Albermarle parts along the way.
AM, your British trim unit I believe was made by Blackburn. Your D8A stamp (the 8 represents the propeller) looks just like the B8A stamp from Blackburn. It's a little convoluted, but I have seen a similar stamp L8A on Barracuda parts made by Blackburn. I believe your D8A stamp is a similar variation.
Blackburn had factories in Leeds (L8A), Brough (B8A) and Dumbarton (D8A). There is nothing in print about those stamps, that is my educated deduction and I hope it helps you. It's logical and seems to fit in with the stamp letters and where the Blackburn factories were located.
I know the Dumbarton factory was involved in the manufacture of Short Sunderlands....... So my guess is Sunderland, a Blackburn aircraft (Skua, Roc, Botha) or another aircraft sub-contracted to them such as the Barracuda. Either way, that trim unit definately has a salty vibe about it.
Looking at the unit, it's probably from a single engined aircraft.
PM sent....
And can we be friends on Facebook please? ?
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 28th April 2020 at 14:50 Permalink - Edited 28th April 2020 at 14:52
I was looking on the wrong page all along...
Thanks for coming back to the thread Elliott, and you've scored another point!
I hadn't made the Blackburn connection (factory stamps aren't my thing really) but your suggestions had me heading back to my gigabytes of cockpit photos for another look.
I had already discounted the Roc and Skua - similar looking handle but a different mounting.
I'd also made two mistakes here - allowing myself to become convinced that I was looking for a fairly obscure, pre-war, single engined machine and that all engine controls would either be in a quadrant or somewhere on the port cockpit side, so I wasn't thinking in the right box, or looking at the right page.
Your suggestion of Botha had me looking at it again - nope, nothing on the port side. Then I looked at the starboard side, in the top, far corner. Only Blackburn....
Now, you say that the A.W. winding wheel isn't from a Whitley? Have a look at this illustration from AP1522E Vol I. It's a bit murky, but isn't that the same handwheel behind the rudder pedals (must have been awkward to use)?
Lastly, why would you ask about F/B? I've already described my only F/B experience. Hawker1966 has been posting some of my items on the Factory Stamps Group but the response has been poor.
Here's the problem. Despite my youthful good looks, adonis figure and full head of wavy brown hair, I'm pushing 70 which puts me in the massive majority of over 65s who don't do facebook. Add to that the fact that I'm amongst the least sociable people I know, and I doubt the F/B experience is really for me.
"Ooh, friends"
Posts: 2,835
By: Whitley_Project - 28th April 2020 at 16:10 Permalink
Blackburn Botha - who'd have thought! A tribute to your perseverance and collection of manuals Air Min.
Regarding the rudder pedal adjuster, it is definately not Whitley i'm afraid. Believe me, I wish it was! So far I have collected two types of Whitley rudder pedal adjuster, I think of them as early and late pattern types. They are of the star wheel type seen below and cast in aluminium and run along a steel shaft with an acme type thread. I think that's what's shown in your Whitley picture. Please see my picture below
I understand your reluctance to use FB, I am similar. However, the game changer for me was the groups, there are so many and they are often so interesting and focused, bringing together people with like minded interests from all over the globe, a little like how this forum used to be, but on steroids.
Regarding your mystery American bomb levers, that factory stamp group is mainly German/UK centric and i'm not sure the best place to ask. You are more likely to get a response if you try the Warbird Information Exchange group (WIX) or start searching for more specific groups - there will be groups dedicated to the B-24 and Havoc too, and you could also ask there. Just my humble suggestion. You could also seek out Paul Bellamy, he is very good at identifying American stuff.
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 28th April 2020 at 17:02 Permalink
Perhaps I need to persuade Margaret that she needs a f/b account - she's far more sociable than I and would soon have lots of friends, then I can "piggyback"?
Meanwhile, here's yet another item that has defied identification so far. It's just a small cast wheel on the front of a paxolin (or similar) body and is some kind of teleflex device, maybe?.
I've given it a gentle clean and am now fairly certain the markings are as I've indicated on the photo.
Hawker (or Elliott) please feel free to post on f/b. TIA.
Posts: 365
By: H.M.S Vulture - 28th April 2020 at 22:06 Permalink
Looks like a wheel that is normally seen, used as peddle adjuster on Fairey rudder pedals.
Could the PM Stamp be FM?
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 29th April 2020 at 13:36 Permalink
Hi HMS, nice to see you back!
Yes, the stamps could start with "F" rather than "P". I think I said as much when I first posted this item - it's just that, having cleaned the wheel as carefully as I can, it looks more like "P"? There's so much surface corrosion it really is a guess as to which it is.
You're spot on with your id though. Here's the Applecore rudder pedestal. I'd better start looking through my Fairey photo files.
Posts: 1,911
By: Air Ministry - 30th April 2020 at 19:54 Permalink
I'm trawling through various Fairey cockpit photos but no luck so far. Done all the Barracuda variants and about half the Firefly variants (there's a lot of them!) and have most if not all the Gannet ones but am gaining the impression I need to go a bit further back in time, so I'll be looking at the Swordfish, Albacore, Fulmar etc.
Meantime, I was having a tidy of the garage and came across this lever. I'm used to seeing this design on American throttle quadrants but I'm puzzling over the markings on the knob. It is clearly an "R" within a "C". Definitely a "C", not a complete circle and the two letters are picked out in white paint.
Can anyone explain this? I'm used to "T", "P" and "M" etc but don't recall this one. No stamps or part numbers to be seen unfortunately. Is their a Facebook Group for airplane levers with no markings?
Posts: 365
By: H.M.S Vulture - 30th April 2020 at 22:20 Permalink
The Early Firefly marks up to the Mk 4 had that style of nut adjuster.
The Swordfish did not have that standard Fairey type of rudder pedals.
You could also look at the Battle?
Posts: 2,835
By: Whitley_Project - 1st May 2020 at 16:36 Permalink - Edited 1st May 2020 at 17:38
Your PM/FM item really looks like a teleflex controller of some type as you already said. I’m sure you know this AM but they had numerous applications including use as CSU controls, engine auxiliaries, propeller governors, throttle controls, fuel tank selectors, wireless equipment controllers etc.
That may help you focus your research.
I emailed you some possibilities for the PM stamp.
I also posted your American CR lever in the WIX group...