Short Sealand questions

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18 years 1 month

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Hello,

I'm looking to find some info on the Short Sealand flying boat. Was this aircraft developed as an executive transport or commercial feederliner or both? Which airlines/air arms operated this aircraft? Any info is appreciated. Thanks.

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18 years 3 months

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I don't know anything about what it was designes to do but I think it was only an eight seater or so. It was actually an amphibian and was powered by (I think) a pair of De Havilland Gipsy majors. I hope that this is of some use to you

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The Indian Navy (!) had a couple, I think. Might even be one preserved there, but I am in the office avoiding work at the moment so... - Nermal

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Hi
I'm back again with some more info I've managed to dig up.

Nermal is correct in saying the Indian navy had some (10) which entered service in 1951.
The Air Force of Serbia& Montenegro had one which entered service in 1951 and retired 1960.
Contrary to my previous post the engines were actually Gipsy Queens

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There is a Sealand in one of the Museums in Belfast , it came back over as part of a three way deal with Nick Grace and someone in the US , sorry that's all I can remember off the top of my head , I'll keep looking .

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I think there is another preserved in the museum at Sarajevo,which is presumably the one operated by the Yugoslav air force.

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Originally posted by ageorge
There is a Sealand in one of the Museums in Belfast , it came back over as part of a three way deal with Nick Grace and someone in the US , sorry that's all I can remember off the top of my head , I'll keep looking .

Most recent info available seems to indicate that this airframe is stored.
Further to my previous posts I have also found out the following:

Indian Navy Sealands were retired in 62

There is one in the Yugoslav Aeronautical Museum

There was on flying as recently as Aug 02 in the USA

Royal Navy used at least 1. The one I have found mention of was
"admiral's barge" for C-in-C Northern Europe and was based in Norway

Also used in Egypt, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia ( Saudi AF had 1)

At a quick glance it looks a bit like a Grumman Gosling but quite a bit larger I think

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Originally posted by mike currill

There was on flying as recently as Aug 02 in the USA
Royal Navy used at least 1. The one I have found mention of was
"admiral's barge" for C-in-C Northern Europe and was based in Norway

Hope you can (and do!) post your sourses for these tidbits... I am at work, my info is at home, but I do recall that there was a magazine (Planes? Wingspan? One became the other...) of around 15+years ago that did a type history of the Sealand - and I think the conclusion was that there might be as many as 3 left in the world, all derelict.
The Royal Navy never had one on charge, there has (as far as I can remember) never been a British military registration for the type; if there was any use at all then it was probably from being on very short-term loan by Shorts in the hope of an order - which never came. - Nermal

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21 years 9 months

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The machine in Northern Ireland is the former Saudi machine that was recovered to the U.S in the late 1970's for rebuild but ended
up at the Bradley Air Museum. She was then traded to Nick Grace in return for a Tempest . Nick then traded the Sealand for a Spitfire XVI (TE184) which is now high back airworthyish!
I cannot see any posibility of any flying past the early 1970's -
certainly if was one operating in the U.S I would be amazingly surprised.

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18 years 1 month

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After some more researching, I have found the following operator info:

- Borneo (2)
- Egypt (1 - private/exec transport)
- Indonesia (2)
- Norway (2 - Vestlandske Luftfartselkap)
- Pakistan (3 - Pakistan Air Force?)
- Venezuela (1)
- Yugoslavia (2 - Jugoslovenski Aerotransport)
- India (10 - Indian Navy)

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Originally posted by Nermal
Hope you can (and do!) post your sourses for these tidbits... I am at work, my info is at home, but I do recall that there was a magazine (Planes? Wingspan? One became the other...) of around 15+years ago that did a type history of the Sealand - and I think the conclusion was that there might be as many as 3 left in the world, all derelict.
The Royal Navy never had one on charge, there has (as far as I can remember) never been a British military registration for the type; if there was any use at all then it was probably from being on very short-term loan by Shorts in the hope of an order - which never came. - Nermal

I don't see why I should reveal the source of my information considering I was the one who took the time to search for it. If you really want to be pedantic then my information came from various web sites which I found on Ask Jeeves. It always surprises me that other people never seem to think of using AJ as you can nearly always find something of use on there. Please excuse me if I sound a bit Anti but Compasscall asked for information and I provided what I could find, I don't see that it really matters where I found it unless you mean from the point of verifying its acuracy

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Keep your hair on Mike!

I have spent over an hour searching through Ray Sturtivants various Fleet Air Arm books for anything remotely Short Sealand-ish because when I saw your bit I also shook my head and thought 'Eh?'!
The last flying boat to see service with the FAA was the Sea Otter (off the top of my head).
The last Shorts designs in service with the FAA would be the Sturgeon and the Seamew, both retired after comparatively little service or next to none at all.
Suspect your Admirals barge was one of the Norwegian ones – which I also found nothing out about.
There are just 3 survivors:- G-AKLW in the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, Holywood; 0662 in Belgrade (in the former Yugoslavia); and IN106 of the Indian Navy at the Naval Aviation Musuem near Dabolim, India.
If there was one flying last year then it has been kept very quietly – in total secrecy!
There is comparatively little on the Sealand on the net – yes I did look on Jeeves but got fed up wading through clothing ads and things about places called Sealand.

Flood.

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Oh dear!
Hi Mike - I think Nermal's comment (which, in principle, I support!) is because the statement that one was flying in 2002 is -ah- wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, please, but as an author and editor, I have to sustantiate statements all the time. In academic writing (and any good quality non-fiction) providing your references is required and sensible - so people can track down errors and those myths that grow because "someone read on the flypast website that a Sealand was flying in the US so it must be true."

Also, I'm afraid that according to my researches, Sealand never served with any British armed forces. Soooo... Can we see the refs please? I ask because I have an 'open' file on the Sealand for an article I'm planning (I've already done one, plus a set of 1/72 scale plans, colour schemes and a small collection of photos. many years ago too) and I'm always interested in tracking down the facts - and the myths!

To add a 2p while I see if I can find my info (it was here earlier!) here's the caption to the Short's advert that hangs in my downstairs toilet:

"The Sealand amphibian... designed for areas where freight and passenger carriage is impracticle for normal aircraft. Shorts. The first manufacturers of aircraft in the world. Short Brothers & Harland Ltd, Queens Island, Belfast London office 17 Grovsnor St W1."

I think the summary was - quite a nice aeroplane, underpowered, with some aerodynamic problems (the engine position had to be changed) and because after W.W.II there was no 'Imperial Preference Scheme' for Aus, Canada etc, so the Commonwealth didn't have to buy British, the (frankly) vastly better Grumman amphibs beat it hollow. (And I LIKE the aircraft!) See the Concorde debate elsewhere on 'demise of British aero engineering'
Cheers

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From AJ Jacksons British Civil Aircraft 1919-1972

'Britians 1st(and last) post war amphibian carried up to 7 passengers and 2 crew on the power of 2 Gipsy Queen 70 engines'. Amoungst the information.. was ordered by BWIA but after trials at St Vincent was found unsuitable for open sea use and their order was cancelled. Had extensive sales tours of North and South America and Europe but sales were dissapointing.
Production...
G-AIVX first flight 22/1/48 Shorts demonstrator scraped Belfast 4/55
G-AKLM crashed while on sales tour in Norway 15/10/49
G-AKLN TO LN-SUF 6/52
G-AKLO to Shell as VR-SDS 10/52
G-AKLP to Shell as VR-UDV 9/54
G-AKLR to JAT as YU-CFJ 9/51 for Dalmation coast services later to Yougoslav air force, preserved Blegrade
G-AKLS to YU-CFK
G-AKLT to PK-CMA Christian Missionaries 1/51
G-AKLU to LN-SUH 5/51 undercarriage removed
G-AKLV to AP-AFM 6/52 returned to Shorts 10/57 scraped 58
G-AKLW to SU-AHY 9/51, to Saudia Arabia and later Belfast
G-AKLX TO East Bengal Transport Comission AP-AGB 12/52
G-AKLY to AP-AGC 12/52
G-AKLZ to Indian Navy INS101 1/53
G-AKMA to Indian Navy INS102 1/53

Indian Navy INS103-110 not british registered
also exported directly
JZ-PTA replaced G-AKLT with Christian Missionaries in Indonesia
YV-P-AEG last production for Shell.

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Hi all,
I've found an article I wrote and illustrated (1991 - don't time fly) on the Sealand for Mushroom Model Magazine. It's got plans as well as photos and schemes. If there's enough interest, I'll hapilly scan and post the pages - the repro isn't great, but it'll give you an idea of the beast. Anyone who has a spare copy of the Frog 1/103rd scale kit of the Sealand they'd like to sell me could be a friend for like if the price was reasonable!
Cheers
James

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18 years 1 month

Posts: 58

Originally posted by robbelc
From AJ Jacksons British Civil Aircraft 1919-1972

'Britians 1st(and last) post war amphibian carried up to 7 passengers and 2 crew on the power of 2 Gipsy Queen 70 engines'. Amoungst the information.. was ordered by BWIA but after trials at St Vincent was found unsuitable for open sea use and their order was cancelled. Had extensive sales tours of North and South America and Europe but sales were dissapointing.
Production...
G-AIVX first flight 22/1/48 Shorts demonstrator scraped Belfast 4/55
G-AKLM crashed while on sales tour in Norway 15/10/49
G-AKLN TO LN-SUF 6/52
G-AKLO to Shell as VR-SDS 10/52
G-AKLP to Shell as VR-UDV 9/54
G-AKLR to JAT as YU-CFJ 9/51 for Dalmation coast services later to Yougoslav air force, preserved Blegrade
G-AKLS to YU-CFK
G-AKLT to PK-CMA Christian Missionaries 1/51
G-AKLU to LN-SUH 5/51 undercarriage removed
G-AKLV to AP-AFM 6/52 returned to Shorts 10/57 scraped 58
G-AKLW to SU-AHY 9/51, to Saudia Arabia and later Belfast
G-AKLX TO East Bengal Transport Comission AP-AGB 12/52
G-AKLY to AP-AGC 12/52
G-AKLZ to Indian Navy INS101 1/53
G-AKMA to Indian Navy INS102 1/53

Indian Navy INS103-110 not british registered
also exported directly
JZ-PTA replaced G-AKLT with Christian Missionaries in Indonesia
YV-P-AEG last production for Shell.

Thanks very much for this info. It answers all my questions.
Corrected Sealand Deliveries:

Airlines
- Norway (2 - Vestlandske Luftfartselkap)
- Pakistan (East) (3 - East Bengal Transport Commission)
- Yugoslavia (2 - Jugoslovenski Aerotransport)

Corporate/Private
- Brunei (1 - Shell)
- Dutch East Indies/Indonesia (2 - Christian Missionaries)
- Egypt (1 - private/exec transport)
- Singapore (1 - Shell)
- Venezuela (1 - Shell)

Military
- India (10 - Indian Navy)

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Posts: 8,505

Originally posted by JDK
Oh dear!
Hi Mike - I think Nermal's comment (which, in principle, I support!) is because the statement that one was flying in 2002 is -ah- wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, please, but as an author and editor, I have to sustantiate statements all the time. In academic writing (and any good quality non-fiction) providing your references is required and sensible - so people can track down errors and those myths that grow because "someone read on the flypast website that a Sealand was flying in the US so it must be true."

Also, I'm afraid that according to my researches, Sealand never served with any British armed forces. Soooo... Can we see the refs please? I ask because I have an 'open' file on the Sealand for an article I'm planning (I've already done one, plus a set of 1/72 scale plans, colour schemes and a small collection of photos. many years ago too) and I'm always interested in tracking down the facts - and the myths!

To add a 2p while I see if I can find my info (it was here earlier!) here's the caption to the Short's advert that hangs in my downstairs toilet:

"The Sealand amphibian... designed for areas where freight and passenger carriage is impracticle for normal aircraft. Shorts. The first manufacturers of aircraft in the world. Short Brothers & Harland Ltd, Queens Island, Belfast London office 17 Grovsnor St W1."

I think the summary was - quite a nice aeroplane, underpowered, with some aerodynamic problems (the engine position had to be changed) and because after W.W.II there was no 'Imperial Preference Scheme' for Aus, Canada etc, so the Commonwealth didn't have to buy British, the (frankly) vastly better Grumman amphibs beat it hollow. (And I LIKE the aircraft!) See the Concorde debate elsewhere on 'demise of British aero engineering'
Cheers

Point taken but if you wish to check the references you'll have to wade through the sites listed in Askjeeves as I did as I can't be bothered to go through them all again.

Always wondered why the Sealand wasn't more successful, now I know. Mind you I'm not surprised really by that time they had a lot more experience of building that size machine

Profile picture for user MDF

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Short Sealand

Would be interested in any info JDK could post on this aircraft.
Is the aircraft in Belfast under restoration or just stored??

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Mike - I believe she would have been more successful if she had been fitted with radials instead of the Gipsy's . The single row Alvis 127 as powered the Pembroke springs to mind but she was
competing against the Grumman Mallard and to some degree secondhand Goose/Widgeon aircraft so she was already in a difficult market.

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Hi MDF,
I'll see what I can do. It'll be next week now, but I'll try & get the stuff together.
Cheers

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18 years 3 months

Posts: 8,505

Originally posted by JDK
Oh dear!
Hi Mike - I think Nermal's comment (which, in principle, I support!) is because the statement that one was flying in 2002 is -ah- wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, please, but as an author and editor, I have to sustantiate statements all the time. In academic writing (and any good quality non-fiction) providing your references is required and sensible - so people can track down errors and those myths that grow because "someone read on the flypast website that a Sealand was flying in the US so it must be true."

Also, I'm afraid that according to my researches, Sealand never served with any British armed forces. Soooo... Can we see the refs please? I ask because I have an 'open' file on the Sealand for an article I'm planning (I've already done one, plus a set of 1/72 scale plans, colour schemes and a small collection of photos. many years ago too) and I'm always interested in tracking down the facts - and the myths!

To add a 2p while I see if I can find my info (it was here earlier!) here's the caption to the Short's advert that hangs in my downstairs toilet:

"The Sealand amphibian... designed for areas where freight and passenger carriage is impracticle for normal aircraft. Shorts. The first manufacturers of aircraft in the world. Short Brothers & Harland Ltd, Queens Island, Belfast London office 17 Grovsnor St W1."

I think the summary was - quite a nice aeroplane, underpowered, with some aerodynamic problems (the engine position had to be changed) and because after W.W.II there was no 'Imperial Preference Scheme' for Aus, Canada etc, so the Commonwealth didn't have to buy British, the (frankly) vastly better Grumman amphibs beat it hollow. (And I LIKE the aircraft!) See the Concorde debate elsewhere on 'demise of British aero engineering'
Cheers

Right then the websites I was looking at have it wrong but one of them has a photo of a Sealand in flight dated Aug 2002 so either it is correct or a photo of a very convincing model.

The remark about the one in Navy service is based on an advertisement for the Sealand in some old aviation magazine like RAF Flying Review (if anyone remembers that) or the old Aeroplane