By: italian harvard
- 21st June 2005 at 19:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
thanks Melv! :)
u have drum or disk brakes? This reminds me of the sooo many headaches and good pints of brake fluid when adjusting the Tiger Moth ones... despite our efforts we often had one wheel blocking or with no braking power at all, expecially on grassy airfields..
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 21st June 2005 at 19:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
thanks Melv! :)
u have drum or disk brakes? This reminds me of the sooo many headaches and good pints of brake fluid when adjusting the Tiger Moth ones... despite our efforts we often had one wheel blocking or with no braking power at all, expecially on grassy airfields..
Alex
Neither. These are plate brakes, like motorbike clutches. Cable operated and useless. I have tried all sorts of ways of adjusting (and more) and they do not work.
I am in the middle now of getting hydralic discs organised.
By: italian harvard
- 21st June 2005 at 19:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
plate brakes? never heard of them before! :confused: this really tickled my curiosity, u have a skectch drawing or something? u even talked about some brake pics u took.. :D
Anyway, think twice before installing disc brakes on a taildragger, they can turn out to be too effective and cause annoying results.. I'd definitely go for the drum ones.
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 21st June 2005 at 20:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
plate brakes? never heard of them before! :confused: this really tickled my curiosity, u have a skectch drawing or something? u even talked about some brake pics u took.. :D
There will be pics at the bottom. There are six plates in each wheel Three are splined onto the axle the other three are splined onto the wheel. When they are compressed they are supposed to pinch together. The problem is that at least part of the effort goes into just pulling the cable and stretching it. The cam is also pretty weak and only has about 3mm movement and so it is not possible to set them up so the wheels revolve freely and stop properly. Consequently there is always a heat build-up and the material fails.
Anyway, think twice before installing disc brakes on a taildragger, they can turn out to be too effective and cause annoying results.. I'd definitely go for the drum ones.
Alex
The problem is what is available for the wheel size. We are not talking a common aeroplane here! The axle size and wheel size and wheel format is different to other aeroplanes. You can do a mod to fit Cub brakes but they are pretty useless too and this is a 850kg aeroplane. It needs to be able to run up and some Cubs can barely do this without moving with less weight and fewer horses. The discs were not my first choice but having spoken to a lot of people over the past few weeks (since I left my wheel pants at La Ferte!) I know of several people that have them on things like Vagabonds and they work well.
The Rearwin has the wheels well forward and so braking in taxying is not an issue and you can set the discs up so they are not too fierce.
You would rarely use them to stop you on a landing roll but you do need them to keep you straight after landing. There is no rudder authority at all from about 30mph and the tailwheel steering is ineffective then as the wheel sloped backwards and so automatically tries to stay straight.
As long as the brakes are progressive in operation they will be fine. I was explaining to my dad about them today. I told him you don't need brakes to stop a taildragger you just need them to stop you starting!
By: dhfan
- 22nd June 2005 at 01:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...Williams Aircraft Collection - nice gut too...
Did you mean guy or are you envious of his shape?
I've never heard of using a clutch as a brake either. If you're planning on converting to hydraulic, couldn't you do that to the existing brakes? It should get rid of all the cable problems and be far more positive.
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 22nd June 2005 at 09:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did you mean guy or are you envious of his shape?
I've never heard of using a clutch as a brake either. If you're planning on converting to hydraulic, couldn't you do that to the existing brakes? It should get rid of all the cable problems and be far more positive.
I suppose I shoud say "Clutch-type". These brakes are originally made by Goodyear and the drawing I have dates from about 1932. They were relatively common for a while but were a dead-end in brake design. In theory they are fine, you have a set of discs spinnign with the wheel and a set stuck on the axle. When you push them together the brake works but it is finding the correct material that is the hard bit, not the engineering. I am sure I could make these into a hydraulic system but that is still going to leave me the problem of the brake material. Try getting a company to quote on the set up costs of having sintered discs made! One place quoted £2,000 minimum and from what I have subsequently learned I donn't think they would have managed it.
The other point about going the standard hydraulic route is that the parts are available. If the pads wear I get new ones, if the disc gets scored I get new ones. With the plate brakes I have to have everything engineered from new.
Has an email from Matco last night and they are confident they have a wheel and brake system that can also accomodate my spats. The next task is actually harder (the wheels and actual brakes are quite easy!) as we have to design the master cylinder arrangement and placement.
By: dhfan
- 22nd June 2005 at 10:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Couple of good points there I hadn't thought of. Clutches are designed to slip a bit and then lock - not ideal for brakes. :)
Also the only units of that style I've had any dealings with were on old British 'bikes which had replaceable inserts, rather than one-piece discs.
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 22nd June 2005 at 12:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Melvcock, how easy would it be to say adapt the Cub Cleveland disk brake mod onto your conveyance?
There is a mod but it is not tidy and has a few problems. The Cub wheels use smaller diameter axles and so that is an engineeing issue and I would have to prove a heavy Rearwin (1800lbs) would be OK on the lighter Cub axles. It is far easier to use the thicker, stronger, axles I have a dn find a wheel and brake that fits. I think we have done this.
The other problem is that what fits on the floor in a cub to operate the brakes will not fit in a Cloudster. We are having to design the whole master cylinder thing so that it is foolproof.
Cub wheels would have been easier but not the answer.
Or, in plain english as a direct answer to your question, "just as difficult as what we are doing" (I hope)
By: mike currill
- 22nd June 2005 at 12:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is one weeerd system, I reckon you'd probably be better off with no brakes at all than this Mickey Mouse set up. I can't understand why it was a dead end idea can you? :)
New
Posts: 1,174
By: Swiss Mustangs
- 22nd June 2005 at 12:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 22nd June 2005 at 12:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is one weeerd system, I reckon you'd probably be better off with no brakes at all than this Mickey Mouse set up. I can't understand why it was a dead end idea can you? :)
It is interesting as it has to have brakes. The Sportster was priced with brakes extra, on the Cloudster they were included. Whether this is because time had changed or not is a question I donno the answer to.
Most taildraggers can, and should, be landed with scant attention to the brakes. The Cloudster is a little different as it has no rudder authority in the latter stages of the landing run and the tailwheel steering is not good enough to turn you. It is fine at slow speed but not when moving quickly. Therefore the is a band of speed where any divergence off the runway needs a little dab of brake to bring you straight. You can sit with full rudder and it does nothing. When Stuart flew it he thought it was a characteristic of square-sectioned fuselages.
It does need brakes!
New
Posts: 1,174
By: Swiss Mustangs
- 22nd June 2005 at 13:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: italian harvard
- 22nd June 2005 at 17:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
u said right melv, it's a matter of finding a braking system which allows u to have a progressive control on them. Are the brake pedals on top of the rudder ones? The original config of the Rearwin was with a tailskid or tailwheel?
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 22nd June 2005 at 18:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What size wheels you got then? We're on 8x6s.
In general just a bit worried you're re-inventing the wheel! Have you looked at other aircraft brake systems?
I know of a company that does electric braking ;)
800x4 with a 1.5 in axle. The Supercub mod paperwork I have shows using a smaller axle which will add to the paperwork. The Rearwin is a bit heavier than a Cub. It is not the wheel end of the equation that is the problem. As long as the wheels and axles remain the same diameter it doesn't matter if I go from 4in hubs to 6 in as long as they are rated for the weight. And as long as the wheel centres are in the same position there is no change of load. Matco have a wheel that is suitable and more or less a slot on and connect up AND I can use the spats.
There are Cloudsters flying with Cub wheels and no spats but I have the original spats and would like to use them. There are also Cloudsters flying that have probably not had the effort I am exerting to get the system right and so may well have substandard parts (you should have seen some of the stuff I have already replaced!)
As for reinventing the wheel, I am not really doing that, just changing the way they are stopped using proprietry parts! There are so few Cloudsters flying that whatever I do other than what was originally fitted is more or less new ground. It is like my glass roof. I had to design that too as some of those on existing Cloudsters did not fill the PFA with joy!
The only problem now is how and where to mount the master cylinders.
By: Melvyn Hiscock
- 22nd June 2005 at 18:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
u said right melv, it's a matter of finding a braking system which allows u to have a progressive control on them. Are the brake pedals on top of the rudder ones? The original config of the Rearwin was with a tailskid or tailwheel?
Alex
Original config was a tailwheel, the same as the one I have (mine is no3!)
The brakes are heel brakes and are positioned well for how you need to use them. They are not used for stopping the aeroplane at all, just jostling it back on line when the rudder doesn't work.
Posts: 763
By: italian harvard - 21st June 2005 at 19:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
thanks Melv! :)
u have drum or disk brakes? This reminds me of the sooo many headaches and good pints of brake fluid when adjusting the Tiger Moth ones... despite our efforts we often had one wheel blocking or with no braking power at all, expecially on grassy airfields..
Alex
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 21st June 2005 at 19:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Neither. These are plate brakes, like motorbike clutches. Cable operated and useless. I have tried all sorts of ways of adjusting (and more) and they do not work.
I am in the middle now of getting hydralic discs organised.
M
Posts: 763
By: italian harvard - 21st June 2005 at 19:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
plate brakes? never heard of them before! :confused: this really tickled my curiosity, u have a skectch drawing or something? u even talked about some brake pics u took.. :D
Anyway, think twice before installing disc brakes on a taildragger, they can turn out to be too effective and cause annoying results.. I'd definitely go for the drum ones.
Alex
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 21st June 2005 at 20:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There will be pics at the bottom. There are six plates in each wheel Three are splined onto the axle the other three are splined onto the wheel. When they are compressed they are supposed to pinch together. The problem is that at least part of the effort goes into just pulling the cable and stretching it. The cam is also pretty weak and only has about 3mm movement and so it is not possible to set them up so the wheels revolve freely and stop properly. Consequently there is always a heat build-up and the material fails.
The problem is what is available for the wheel size. We are not talking a common aeroplane here! The axle size and wheel size and wheel format is different to other aeroplanes. You can do a mod to fit Cub brakes but they are pretty useless too and this is a 850kg aeroplane. It needs to be able to run up and some Cubs can barely do this without moving with less weight and fewer horses. The discs were not my first choice but having spoken to a lot of people over the past few weeks (since I left my wheel pants at La Ferte!) I know of several people that have them on things like Vagabonds and they work well.
The Rearwin has the wheels well forward and so braking in taxying is not an issue and you can set the discs up so they are not too fierce.
You would rarely use them to stop you on a landing roll but you do need them to keep you straight after landing. There is no rudder authority at all from about 30mph and the tailwheel steering is ineffective then as the wheel sloped backwards and so automatically tries to stay straight.
As long as the brakes are progressive in operation they will be fine. I was explaining to my dad about them today. I told him you don't need brakes to stop a taildragger you just need them to stop you starting!
Melv
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 21st June 2005 at 20:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whoops, forgot the pics.
The plates and also the actuator.
M
Posts: 2,890
By: dhfan - 22nd June 2005 at 01:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did you mean guy or are you envious of his shape?
I've never heard of using a clutch as a brake either. If you're planning on converting to hydraulic, couldn't you do that to the existing brakes? It should get rid of all the cable problems and be far more positive.
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 09:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suppose I shoud say "Clutch-type". These brakes are originally made by Goodyear and the drawing I have dates from about 1932. They were relatively common for a while but were a dead-end in brake design. In theory they are fine, you have a set of discs spinnign with the wheel and a set stuck on the axle. When you push them together the brake works but it is finding the correct material that is the hard bit, not the engineering. I am sure I could make these into a hydraulic system but that is still going to leave me the problem of the brake material. Try getting a company to quote on the set up costs of having sintered discs made! One place quoted £2,000 minimum and from what I have subsequently learned I donn't think they would have managed it.
The other point about going the standard hydraulic route is that the parts are available. If the pads wear I get new ones, if the disc gets scored I get new ones. With the plate brakes I have to have everything engineered from new.
Has an email from Matco last night and they are confident they have a wheel and brake system that can also accomodate my spats. The next task is actually harder (the wheels and actual brakes are quite easy!) as we have to design the master cylinder arrangement and placement.
M
Posts: 2,890
By: dhfan - 22nd June 2005 at 10:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Couple of good points there I hadn't thought of. Clutches are designed to slip a bit and then lock - not ideal for brakes. :)
Also the only units of that style I've had any dealings with were on old British 'bikes which had replaceable inserts, rather than one-piece discs.
I'll go back to my corner...
Posts: 2,606
By: BlueRobin - 22nd June 2005 at 11:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Melvcock, how easy would it be to say adapt the Cub Cleveland disk brake mod onto your conveyance?
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 12:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is a mod but it is not tidy and has a few problems. The Cub wheels use smaller diameter axles and so that is an engineeing issue and I would have to prove a heavy Rearwin (1800lbs) would be OK on the lighter Cub axles. It is far easier to use the thicker, stronger, axles I have a dn find a wheel and brake that fits. I think we have done this.
The other problem is that what fits on the floor in a cub to operate the brakes will not fit in a Cloudster. We are having to design the whole master cylinder thing so that it is foolproof.
Cub wheels would have been easier but not the answer.
Or, in plain english as a direct answer to your question, "just as difficult as what we are doing" (I hope)
M
Posts: 8,505
By: mike currill - 22nd June 2005 at 12:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is one weeerd system, I reckon you'd probably be better off with no brakes at all than this Mickey Mouse set up. I can't understand why it was a dead end idea can you? :)
Posts: 1,174
By: Swiss Mustangs - 22nd June 2005 at 12:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Melv
see the last photo on this page:
http://www.447bg.com/library/cpt/cpt3.html
and some
http://www.edcoatescollection.com/ac3/Classics/Rearwin8135.html
http://www.landings.com/_landings/ganflyer/mar21-1997/of-wings-n-things.html
Martin
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 12:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is a Cloudster on the third to last too.
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 12:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is interesting as it has to have brakes. The Sportster was priced with brakes extra, on the Cloudster they were included. Whether this is because time had changed or not is a question I donno the answer to.
Most taildraggers can, and should, be landed with scant attention to the brakes. The Cloudster is a little different as it has no rudder authority in the latter stages of the landing run and the tailwheel steering is not good enough to turn you. It is fine at slow speed but not when moving quickly. Therefore the is a band of speed where any divergence off the runway needs a little dab of brake to bring you straight. You can sit with full rudder and it does nothing. When Stuart flew it he thought it was a characteristic of square-sectioned fuselages.
It does need brakes!
Posts: 1,174
By: Swiss Mustangs - 22nd June 2005 at 13:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
how about these ? :diablo:
Martin :D
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 13:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
or one of these
Posts: 2,606
By: BlueRobin - 22nd June 2005 at 16:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What size wheels you got then? We're on 8x6s.
In general just a bit worried you're re-inventing the wheel! Have you looked at other aircraft brake systems?
I know of a company that does electric braking ;)
Posts: 763
By: italian harvard - 22nd June 2005 at 17:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
u said right melv, it's a matter of finding a braking system which allows u to have a progressive control on them. Are the brake pedals on top of the rudder ones? The original config of the Rearwin was with a tailskid or tailwheel?
Alex
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 18:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
800x4 with a 1.5 in axle. The Supercub mod paperwork I have shows using a smaller axle which will add to the paperwork. The Rearwin is a bit heavier than a Cub. It is not the wheel end of the equation that is the problem. As long as the wheels and axles remain the same diameter it doesn't matter if I go from 4in hubs to 6 in as long as they are rated for the weight. And as long as the wheel centres are in the same position there is no change of load. Matco have a wheel that is suitable and more or less a slot on and connect up AND I can use the spats.
There are Cloudsters flying with Cub wheels and no spats but I have the original spats and would like to use them. There are also Cloudsters flying that have probably not had the effort I am exerting to get the system right and so may well have substandard parts (you should have seen some of the stuff I have already replaced!)
As for reinventing the wheel, I am not really doing that, just changing the way they are stopped using proprietry parts! There are so few Cloudsters flying that whatever I do other than what was originally fitted is more or less new ground. It is like my glass roof. I had to design that too as some of those on existing Cloudsters did not fill the PFA with joy!
The only problem now is how and where to mount the master cylinders.
M
Posts: 2,764
By: Melvyn Hiscock - 22nd June 2005 at 18:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Original config was a tailwheel, the same as the one I have (mine is no3!)
The brakes are heel brakes and are positioned well for how you need to use them. They are not used for stopping the aeroplane at all, just jostling it back on line when the rudder doesn't work.