There are some very good English wheel operators still 'out there', and they will be familiar names to anyone associated with restoration. Now I wouldn't want to criticise anyone who has achieved far more than I probably ever will, but this looks like corner-cutting in this particular case. It comes down to what the 'client' is willing to pay for, rather than lack of skills.
I noticed this at the weekend, i was thinking it was to do with the engine, MK11 Hurricanes had a two stage engine, and a longer bearer by about 6 inches................maybe that's why ?
AFAIK this is best guide on the subject, certainly from a model builders perspective.
Any additions and corrections are of great interest.
The poor old Hurricane does get the cinderella treatment, and while Britmodeller is a model forum, there have been some excellent discussions on Hurricane details and myths, like the Sea Hurricane IC, in all the books, but according to Sturtivant, apart from a couple, not used. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235006484-sea-hurricane-ic/
By: Graham Boak
- 21st July 2019 at 21:34Permalink
The Merlin XX did not have a two-stage supercharger, but a single stage supercharger with two gears. It took the Merlin 60 to appear with a two-stage supercharger, as in the Spitfire Mk.IX. This is some 8 inches longer than the Merlin 45 of the Mk.V Spitfire.
The 4 inch extension is also visible in the fairing between the Hurricane's nose and the wing leading edge, which is almost circular on the Mk.1 and more elliptical on the Mk.II.
By: anneorac
- 22nd July 2019 at 14:58Permalink- Edited 22nd July 2019 at 15:02
At the risk of continuing the thread drift, here'’s some info on the three types of spinner used with Rotol Props.
The first was the ES/6 Which is the blunt spinner seen on Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain. This is sometimes erroneously referred to as a Rotol Spitfire spinner. The ES/6 did find its way onto a handful of reconnaissance Spitfire Ds but is pretty much specific to the Hurricane and differs to the spinners found on Rotol equipped Spit Is and IIs.
Bizarrely the ES (External Spinner) series of spinners were based on German VDM designs and the Weybridge blades used on many of the Hurricanes props are made using the German Schwarz process.
Moving on to the Hurricane II we have the bullet shaped ES/9 spinner and the slightly longer CM/1. The difference in shape between the two is very subtle with the ES/9 having a constantly increasing curve from the back plate to the nose while the CM/1 has a flatter curve from backing plate to just in front of the blades and then a slightly steeper curve from that point.
The easiest way of telling the difference is but looking at the way spinners attach to the back plate. The ES/9 is attached by six locking studs on the spinner so if you can see two small holes on the spinner between the blades, you are looking at an ES/9. Just be aware if you are looking at a close-up, DH spinners attach in a similar way.
The CM/1 spinner is locked by a single slot located on the backing plate so if you can’t see any holes on the spinner you may be looking at a CM/1. If you are lucky and the prop has stopped in the correct place you may even be able to see the slot in the backing plate.
Just for info, the following table lists some of the variations of De Havilland and Rotol props found on Hurricanes. I haven’t included any of the Hydromatic, Hamilton Standard props used on the Canadian Hurricanes. I’m sure, if you’ve made it this far, you’ll know that the Merlin II & III equates to the Hurricane I and the twenty series to the Hurricane II.
By: Graham Boak
- 22nd July 2019 at 16:29Permalink- Edited 22nd July 2019 at 16:53
Thanks for this very interesting table, which confirms my observation that there are at least two different spinners seen on Merlin XX Hurricanes. Can I therefore believe that the more bulbous shape seen on the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane Z7015, and indeed most if not all currently flying Hurricanes, is the CM/1?
It is also interesting to see that the blunt spinner seen on Hurricanes in the BoB is specific to Hurricanes, despite being considerably wider than the Hurricane's nose. Testing of this was carried out on a civil-registered Hurricane with a slightly widened nose, so presumably we are seeing the P3021A/2 here. Do you know the visible difference between that and the ES/6? Further, is this mismatch linked to the oil leakage problem leading to the addition of the oil spill ring on all Hurricanes? I have not seen any examples of Merlin XX (or 28) with such a larger spinner, and late production Mk.Is are seen with the ES/9,.
One clarification please. Is this a list reflecting actual production combination, clearances for use in service (even if not used), or including postwar use on warbirds?
By: Troy Smith
- 22nd July 2019 at 19:58Permalink- Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
At the risk of continuing the thread drift, here'’s some info on the three types of spinner used with Rotol Props.
Moving on to the Hurricane II we have the bullet shaped ES/9 spinner and the slightly longer CM/1. The difference in shape between the two is very subtle with the ES/9 having a constantly increasing curve from the back plate to the nose
this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"hurr2-6.jpg","data-attachmentid":3868665}[/ATTACH]
while the CM/1 has a flatter curve from backing plate to just in front of the blades and then a slightly steeper curve from that point.
this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"hurr2-4.jpg","data-attachmentid":3868666}[/ATTACH]
The easiest way of telling the difference is but looking at the way spinners attach to the back plate. The ES/9 is attached by six locking studs on the spinner so if you can see two small holes on the spinner between the blades, you are looking at an ES/9. Just be aware if you are looking at a close-up, DH spinners attach in a similar way.
The CM/1 spinner is locked by a single slot located on the backing plate so if you can’t see any holes on the spinner you may be looking at a CM/1. If you are lucky and the prop has stopped in the correct place you may even be able to see the slot in the backing plate.
Thank you very much, very interesting and helpful information.
In the Britmodller thread on Hurricane Props and spinners, there are two Mk.I's with different blade shapes
This 501 sq plane in France, May 1940
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"501-rotolhurri-france.jpg","data-attachmentid":3868667}[/ATTACH]
and this IIRC, 1 Sq RCAF/401 Sq August or Sep 1940
Thanks for this very interesting table, which confirms my observation that there are at least two different spinners seen on Merlin XX Hurricanes. Can I therefore believe that the more bulbous shape seen on the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane Z7015, and indeed most if not all currently flying Hurricanes, is the CM/1?
One clarification please. Is this a list reflecting actual production combination, clearances for use in service (even if not used), or including postwar use on warbirds?
Hello Graham,
I’ve got a partial answer for you and a simple rule, which is, be very wary of any spinner or prop you see attached to a surviving Hurricane. Having said that, Z7015 at Shuttleworth and the BBMF’s two Mk.IIc aircraft appear to be sporting ES/9 spinners. If you Google static images of these three aircraft you’ll notice they all have the pairs of circular locking nuts between the blades.
I’ve been looking for surviving examples of the CM/1 and so far, the only one I’m sure of is attached to the Mk.IV LD975 in Belgrade.
The listing is taken from a number of DeHavilland and Rotol publications. Few dates are given but they appear to be from between 1941 and 1945. Sadly I’ve been unable to find any earlier versions which list the earliest DeHavilland installations.
By: anneorac
- 22nd July 2019 at 23:32Permalink- Edited 22nd July 2019 at 23:36
this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\thurr2-6.jpg Views:\t0 Size:\t59.8 KB ID:\t3868665","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"3868665","data-size":"full","title":"hurr2-6.jpg"}[/ATTACH]
this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\thurr2-4.jpg Views:\t0 Size:\t49.5 KB ID:\t3868666","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"3868666","data-size":"full","title":"hurr2-4.jpg"}[/ATTACH]
Now I’m fairly sure you’re going to disagree with me here but I'’m going to make a controversial call and say that they are both the same ES/9 spinner. Now I can hear you all shouting '‘No way, the bottom one is much longer'’ and at first I thought the same thing but I’'ve spent more time today looking at Hurricane props than I really should have and have come to a number of conclusions.
First of all the contours of a spinner can appear to change quite dramatically depending on the angle you view it from. If you Google images of Z7015 you may notice it’s spinner looks much longer if viewed three quarters on than it does from the side. I’'d also guess that different sizes of lenses may also have an effect.
Second revelation is that black spinners just look bigger.
Third discovery, quite a few Hurricanes appear to have sported Sky coloured spinners with black back plates and the top Hurricane appears to be an example of this. This has the effect of making it look just a bit shorter than it really is.
Now if you look carefully at the bottom photo you can just make out two sets of markings on the spinner between the blades and I suspect that these are for the lock nuts found on the External Spinner series. That would mean that this couldn't be a CM/1.
After all this I still find part of myself thinking that the bottom one does look longer but I do wonder if this is a just an illusion. What say you?
I have seen DP55600 as the blade number for the Hurricane I elsewhere but I am.curious about this as it is the one number that completely messes up a sequence painstakingly put together by yours truly) into which very many aircraft types and blades fit.
I have seen DP55600 as the blade number for the Hurricane I elsewhere but I am.curious about this as it is the one number that completely messes up a sequence painstakingly put together by yours truly) into which very many aircraft types and blades fit.
Interesting...how come? Breaking it down you get...
D Dyed blade
P DeHavilland Blade
5 Bracket Type
5 Shank size
6 Design number
0 Right hand rotation
0 Un-cropped
By: Beermat
- 28th July 2019 at 18:43Permalink- Edited 30th July 2019 at 07:14
Interesting...how come? Breaking it down you get...
D Dyed blade
P DeHavilland Blade
5 Bracket Type
5 Shank size
6 Design number
0 Right hand rotation
0 Un-cropped
Yep, I have compiled a table of bracket and Hydromatic blades and applications 1936 - 45 along with their US Hamilton equivalents which I will send you if you PM me your email. In doing so patterns emerge.
The DP55xxx blades were based on US designs - the 553XX and 554XX were HS 6103's at 11'6" uncropped 'basic' diameter, and the 558XX and above were HS 6105's at 13' basic.
The problem with a DP55600 being an 11 foot uncropped blade is there is no US equivalent with that diameter. At the time DH did not have their own VP blade design facility, instead just apparently importing the masters along with the milling machinery from the US. It would be odd to the point of being highly unlikely that a one-off design was made solely for the Hurricane at a time when DH were not in the business of metal blade design. Apart from anything else this would suggest a different, intermediate-sized blank from the standard three, which were 9 inches apart (ultimate diameters 10ft, 11ft 6in and 13ft). Also, designs that were uncropped were noticeably 'pointy', tapering to the narrowest tip possible when using the full length of the blank. Hurricane DH blades look like slight crops.
A logical suggestion for the Hurricane would be 55X06, ie three inches greater diameter than the Spitfire's 55409 with roughly the same speed requirements and identical hp and RPM, hewn from a 6103 blank.
By: Troy Smith
- 10th April 2020 at 23:15Permalink
Moving on to the Hurricane II we have the bullet shaped ES/9 spinner and the slightly longer CM/1. The difference in shape between the two is very subtle with the ES/9 having a constantly increasing curve from the back plate to the nose while the CM/1 has a flatter curve from backing plate to just in front of the blades and then a slightly steeper curve from that point.
The easiest way of telling the difference is but looking at the way spinners attach to the back plate. The ES/9 is attached by six locking studs on the spinner so if you can see two small holes on the spinner between the blades, you are looking at an ES/9. Just be aware if you are looking at a close-up, DH spinners attach in a similar way.
The CM/1 spinner is locked by a single slot located on the backing plate so if you can’t see any holes on the spinner you may be looking at a CM/1. If you are lucky and the prop has stopped in the correct place you may even be able to see the slot in the backing plate.
Is this a CM/1? Can't see the two holes as seen on the ES/9?
Posts: 248
By: StevSmar - 14th July 2019 at 18:09 Permalink
I've compared the nose contours of recent restorations with historic photos and the difference is quite noticeable.
To me it looks like the rear of the nose collar (in front of the front exhausts) is too shallow.
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 15th July 2019 at 08:13 Permalink
There are some very good English wheel operators still 'out there', and they will be familiar names to anyone associated with restoration. Now I wouldn't want to criticise anyone who has achieved far more than I probably ever will, but this looks like corner-cutting in this particular case. It comes down to what the 'client' is willing to pay for, rather than lack of skills.
Posts: 9
By: Troy Smith - 21st July 2019 at 21:20 Permalink
the length difference is 4 inches, as the Merlin XX is 4 inches longer, the extension is visible externally in the bays between cockpit and engine.
This thread has photos and drawings, https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/64364-hurricane-noses-and-the-hasegawa-172-kits/
even if you have to skip over the kit discussions.
Posts: 9
By: Troy Smith - 21st July 2019 at 21:34 Permalink
Hurricane spinners and props are a confusing subject, a while back I did a modellers guide, and after the addition of some excellent contributions on the Canadian variation and the use of Constellation props and spinners, this is the result
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/
AFAIK this is best guide on the subject, certainly from a model builders perspective.
Any additions and corrections are of great interest.
The poor old Hurricane does get the cinderella treatment, and while Britmodeller is a model forum, there have been some excellent discussions on Hurricane details and myths, like the Sea Hurricane IC, in all the books, but according to Sturtivant, apart from a couple, not used.
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235006484-sea-hurricane-ic/
There is a fascinating thread on Canadian Hurricanes at the moment
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235018350-canadian-hurricanes/
Hope of interest.
Posts: 957
By: Graham Boak - 21st July 2019 at 21:34 Permalink
The Merlin XX did not have a two-stage supercharger, but a single stage supercharger with two gears. It took the Merlin 60 to appear with a two-stage supercharger, as in the Spitfire Mk.IX. This is some 8 inches longer than the Merlin 45 of the Mk.V Spitfire.
The 4 inch extension is also visible in the fairing between the Hurricane's nose and the wing leading edge, which is almost circular on the Mk.1 and more elliptical on the Mk.II.
Posts: 653
By: anneorac - 22nd July 2019 at 14:58 Permalink - Edited 22nd July 2019 at 15:02
At the risk of continuing the thread drift, here'’s some info on the three types of spinner used with Rotol Props.
The first was the ES/6 Which is the blunt spinner seen on Hurricanes during the Battle of Britain. This is sometimes erroneously referred to as a Rotol Spitfire spinner. The ES/6 did find its way onto a handful of reconnaissance Spitfire Ds but is pretty much specific to the Hurricane and differs to the spinners found on Rotol equipped Spit Is and IIs.
Bizarrely the ES (External Spinner) series of spinners were based on German VDM designs and the Weybridge blades used on many of the Hurricanes props are made using the German Schwarz process.
Moving on to the Hurricane II we have the bullet shaped ES/9 spinner and the slightly longer CM/1. The difference in shape between the two is very subtle with the ES/9 having a constantly increasing curve from the back plate to the nose while the CM/1 has a flatter curve from backing plate to just in front of the blades and then a slightly steeper curve from that point.
The easiest way of telling the difference is but looking at the way spinners attach to the back plate. The ES/9 is attached by six locking studs on the spinner so if you can see two small holes on the spinner between the blades, you are looking at an ES/9. Just be aware if you are looking at a close-up, DH spinners attach in a similar way.
The CM/1 spinner is locked by a single slot located on the backing plate so if you can’t see any holes on the spinner you may be looking at a CM/1. If you are lucky and the prop has stopped in the correct place you may even be able to see the slot in the backing plate.
Just for info, the following table lists some of the variations of De Havilland and Rotol props found on Hurricanes. I haven’t included any of the Hydromatic, Hamilton Standard props used on the Canadian Hurricanes. I’m sure, if you’ve made it this far, you’ll know that the Merlin II & III equates to the Hurricane I and the twenty series to the Hurricane II.
Posts: 957
By: Graham Boak - 22nd July 2019 at 16:29 Permalink - Edited 22nd July 2019 at 16:53
Thanks for this very interesting table, which confirms my observation that there are at least two different spinners seen on Merlin XX Hurricanes. Can I therefore believe that the more bulbous shape seen on the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane Z7015, and indeed most if not all currently flying Hurricanes, is the CM/1?
It is also interesting to see that the blunt spinner seen on Hurricanes in the BoB is specific to Hurricanes, despite being considerably wider than the Hurricane's nose. Testing of this was carried out on a civil-registered Hurricane with a slightly widened nose, so presumably we are seeing the P3021A/2 here. Do you know the visible difference between that and the ES/6? Further, is this mismatch linked to the oil leakage problem leading to the addition of the oil spill ring on all Hurricanes? I have not seen any examples of Merlin XX (or 28) with such a larger spinner, and late production Mk.Is are seen with the ES/9,.
One clarification please. Is this a list reflecting actual production combination, clearances for use in service (even if not used), or including postwar use on warbirds?
Posts: 9
By: Troy Smith - 22nd July 2019 at 19:58 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"hurr2-6.jpg","data-attachmentid":3868665}[/ATTACH]
this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"hurr2-4.jpg","data-attachmentid":3868666}[/ATTACH]
Thank you very much, very interesting and helpful information.
In the Britmodller thread on Hurricane Props and spinners, there are two Mk.I's with different blade shapes
This 501 sq plane in France, May 1940
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"501-rotolhurri-france.jpg","data-attachmentid":3868667}[/ATTACH]
and this IIRC, 1 Sq RCAF/401 Sq August or Sep 1940
Thank you for the information so far.
Posts: 653
By: anneorac - 22nd July 2019 at 22:57 Permalink
Hello Graham,
I’ve got a partial answer for you and a simple rule, which is, be very wary of any spinner or prop you see attached to a surviving Hurricane. Having said that, Z7015 at Shuttleworth and the BBMF’s two Mk.IIc aircraft appear to be sporting ES/9 spinners. If you Google static images of these three aircraft you’ll notice they all have the pairs of circular locking nuts between the blades.
I’ve been looking for surviving examples of the CM/1 and so far, the only one I’m sure of is attached to the Mk.IV LD975 in Belgrade.
The listing is taken from a number of DeHavilland and Rotol publications. Few dates are given but they appear to be from between 1941 and 1945. Sadly I’ve been unable to find any earlier versions which list the earliest DeHavilland installations.
Posts: 653
By: anneorac - 22nd July 2019 at 23:32 Permalink - Edited 22nd July 2019 at 23:36
Now I’m fairly sure you’re going to disagree with me here but I'’m going to make a controversial call and say that they are both the same ES/9 spinner. Now I can hear you all shouting '‘No way, the bottom one is much longer'’ and at first I thought the same thing but I’'ve spent more time today looking at Hurricane props than I really should have and have come to a number of conclusions.
First of all the contours of a spinner can appear to change quite dramatically depending on the angle you view it from. If you Google images of Z7015 you may notice it’s spinner looks much longer if viewed three quarters on than it does from the side. I’'d also guess that different sizes of lenses may also have an effect.
Second revelation is that black spinners just look bigger.
Third discovery, quite a few Hurricanes appear to have sported Sky coloured spinners with black back plates and the top Hurricane appears to be an example of this. This has the effect of making it look just a bit shorter than it really is.
Now if you look carefully at the bottom photo you can just make out two sets of markings on the spinner between the blades and I suspect that these are for the lock nuts found on the External Spinner series. That would mean that this couldn't be a CM/1.
After all this I still find part of myself thinking that the bottom one does look longer but I do wonder if this is a just an illusion. What say you?
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 26th July 2019 at 06:43 Permalink
Aneorac
I have seen DP55600 as the blade number for the Hurricane I elsewhere but I am.curious about this as it is the one number that completely messes up a sequence painstakingly put together by yours truly) into which very many aircraft types and blades fit.
Posts: 653
By: anneorac - 26th July 2019 at 08:58 Permalink
Interesting...how come? Breaking it down you get...
D Dyed blade
P DeHavilland Blade
5 Bracket Type
5 Shank size
6 Design number
0 Right hand rotation
0 Un-cropped
Posts: 146
By: Trak-Tor - 26th July 2019 at 09:32 Permalink - Edited 26th July 2019 at 09:35
Here, on my older pictures from Shuttleworth, you can see that the rim/oil-deflector is a separate add-on to the cowling:
Shuttleworth2013_155_upr by Juraj Jankovič, on Flickr
Shuttleworth2013_156_upr by Juraj Jankovič, on Flickr
Shuttleworth2013_214_upr by Juraj Jankovič, on Flickr
Juraj
Posts: 3,447
By: Beermat - 28th July 2019 at 18:43 Permalink - Edited 30th July 2019 at 07:14
Yep, I have compiled a table of bracket and Hydromatic blades and applications 1936 - 45 along with their US Hamilton equivalents which I will send you if you PM me your email. In doing so patterns emerge.
The DP55xxx blades were based on US designs - the 553XX and 554XX were HS 6103's at 11'6" uncropped 'basic' diameter, and the 558XX and above were HS 6105's at 13' basic.
The problem with a DP55600 being an 11 foot uncropped blade is there is no US equivalent with that diameter. At the time DH did not have their own VP blade design facility, instead just apparently importing the masters along with the milling machinery from the US. It would be odd to the point of being highly unlikely that a one-off design was made solely for the Hurricane at a time when DH were not in the business of metal blade design. Apart from anything else this would suggest a different, intermediate-sized blank from the standard three, which were 9 inches apart (ultimate diameters 10ft, 11ft 6in and 13ft). Also, designs that were uncropped were noticeably 'pointy', tapering to the narrowest tip possible when using the full length of the blank. Hurricane DH blades look like slight crops.
A logical suggestion for the Hurricane would be 55X06, ie three inches greater diameter than the Spitfire's 55409 with roughly the same speed requirements and identical hp and RPM, hewn from a 6103 blank.
Posts: 9
By: Troy Smith - 10th April 2020 at 23:15 Permalink
Is this a CM/1? Can't see the two holes as seen on the ES/9?
Posts: 9
By: Troy Smith - 12th April 2020 at 00:13 Permalink
is this a CM/1 spinner?
has a slot in the backing plate
from here
http://ava.org.ru/iap/78m.htm