Friday Fun. Military V Civy Combat

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Airfix mag this month shows a Seafury downing a blue Piper cub.

So how many Military aircraft deliberately shot down civilian aircraft in anger? (Or vise Versa).

Go!

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..... and then there's the DC-3 G-AGBB which was shot down by Luftwaffe aircraft over the Bay of Biscay on 1 June 1943, resulting in the loss of seventeen lives including that of the actor, Leslie Howard.

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I think Russia / the Soviet Union probably has the best chance of an 'ace' in that category! :dev2:

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There was that AN-2 shoot down by an Air America UH-1.

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Airfix mag this month shows a Seafury downing a blue Piper cub.

So how many Military aircraft deliberately shot down civilian aircraft in anger? (Or vise Versa).

Go!

Think it was an Aussie Sea Fury downed a pilotless Auster if memory serves.

Russia shot down two Korean Airlines flights, the infamous 747 and also a 707 that was force landed on a frozen lake. A Soviet fighter also brought down an Argentine CL-44 with a mid-air collision during an intercept, though whether deliberately or accidentally...

Was the Gary Powers U-2 ostensibly a civilian aircraft?

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In a Bulgarian MiG-15 shoot down a Lockheed Constellation of El Al with 58 fatalities.

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So, in post-1945 terms, apart from the USS Vincennes incident, which I was going to mention anyway (except that it was a missile shoot-down rather than an air-to-air), the message seems to be: 'do not fly in a Soviet built aircraft or near the airspace of the Soviet Bloc or China'?

The only United Kingdom 'incident' I can think of was during the Falklands Conflict when a commercial airliner was mistaken for an Argentine 707 transport / surveillance aircraft and was tracked on missile-control radar by the Task Force; fortunately a 'weapons tight' order was issued and no weapon was launched.

Personally, I have reservations about this whole incident because it was well before a shot had been fired in the recovery operation, before the Task Force had even reached the Falklands, the Argentine 707 was totally unarmed and shooting-down a civilian airliner (or even an Argentine 707?) at that stage would have (rightly) brought utter condemnation of the United Kingdom and totally scuppered any support for military liberation of the Falklands...

...it also first appeared in 'One Hundred Days', the book by Admiral 'Sandy' Woodward (but ghost-written by a well-known thriller writer)! Edit: Patrick Robinson was the ghost-writer.

Without this 'incident' the long passage-south of the Task Force may have needed a bit of a 'spice-up'?

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The 747 Korean shoot down highlighted the risks accepted by civil airline crews which are worse at night. I have been a passenger on a 747 over Europe which was trailed for 10 minutes by a small jet in our rear three quarters at night, it departed suddenly and did display hard to spot nav lights,no cabin lights so might have been military. Later we flew over Afghanistan and I did wonder about the war below. It was ashock to hear the news about the SAM bringing down the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17).

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One thing that staggers me on commercial flights these days is how many passengers fly with the window blinds down the whole flight (so they can see their iPad screens properly) even when flying over interesting terrain.....a 'window seat' is now just one less armrest to contest for most people! Me, I like to look out of the window!!!

I mention this as the light from the windows on Flight 007 was one reason given as why the Soviet pilot couldn't, or shouldn't, have mistaken it for a military spy-plane as the Soviets claimed.

The 747 Korean shoot down highlighted the risks accepted by civil airline crews which are worse at night.
Why would the risk at night be worse than during the day? A missile attack is very likely to be made from out of visual range anyway.

I have been a passenger on a 747 over Europe which was trailed for 10 minutes by a small jet in our rear three quarters at night,
It is the normal practice of aircraft to follow the centre-line of an airway, so being behind/above/below and with a separation of 1,000 ft is quite normal. Since we all fly at similar speeds, we often remain trailing each other for long periods.

it departed suddenly
Turning to fly a new track will do that.

hard to spot nav lights, no cabin lights so might have been military.
Nav lights will have standard visibility angle display/intensity whether civilian or military. No cabin lights … people like to sleep at night, so it is usual for blinds to be down and lights in the cabin dimmed.

The TCAS display in the cockpit will keep the crew aware of a lot of the traffic.

You worry too much.

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I saw a brief mention of an incident in 1940, the Russians shot down a Finnish JU-52 when it was learned an American diplomat aboard had a plane which detailed Soviet plans to conquer the Baltic nations.

Anyone know more?

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Two yellow Piper Cubs were shot down by marauding Zero's at the start of Pearl Harbour attack.
The pilots, both US airman are officially (I believe) the first US casulaties of WW2.

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Never knew about the French Caravelle incident either, thanks for the link, statistics must surely show that 11th September is s bad day to fly!

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Two yellow Piper Cubs were shot down by marauding Zero's at the start of Pearl Harbour attack.
The pilots, both US airman are officially (I believe) the first US casulaties of WW2.

This gent may have that dubious claim to fame;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Losey

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Technically America was not at war. Does that still count as a military fatality?

Also the case at the time of the Pearl Harbor shoot downs.