Read the forum code of contact
By: - 18th June 2005 at 14:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ergh.
I was looking at this for another reason recently. This is a horrible question, discussed at some length by Ian K Baker in his publication on Hudson Colours. I'll have a look tomorrow at my copy, and see if I can summarise it.
I'm sure there will be other, valued, input in the meantime!
Cheers!
By: - 18th June 2005 at 15:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone know the specific colour details? The Federal Standard or British Standard number and nomenclature of the "dark grey" paint? In the photos it doesn't appear to be terribly dark.
There's a book out there that has all the *standard* Brit colours in it, used it to get the PR Blue for Dayton's recon Spit many years ago. It had all the RAF colours in there, can't remember if there was also RN colours, but I do remember it had "Post Office Red".
Can't remember the name of the damn book, I think Pete still has it down the hangar I'll give him a call next week & ask what the title is. It's not a very big book, maybe 20 pages & about 5x7in
By: - 18th June 2005 at 15:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone think it might be a sun-bleeched olve drab? - Nermal
By: - 20th June 2005 at 11:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone think it might be a sun-bleeched olve drab? - NermalPerhaps for someone used to the Australian Foliage Green, even unfaded Olive Drab might look grey.
By: - 20th June 2005 at 11:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But I get the impression it was new paint, as arrived from the factory. I know many were in standard RAF green/brown, but we got the Hudsons in various batches, so I assume if they were painted grey in the factory it must be a small number of.
What did you find out James?
By: - 20th June 2005 at 12:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IIRC Generally American manufactured aircraft obtained via the British Purchasing Commission tended to be finished in the ANA equivalent of the standard British Paint colours.
Look out for publications by Dana Bell who has done considerable research and produced monographs on Export Colours
Did anybody notice the picture of Razorback Thunderbolt production in the new Key WW2 air warfare special - notice the batch of Brit camo'd /sky tail banded Jugs - half way down the line - these would have been painted in ANA equivalents of Brit colours.
ps the 262 being towed in the same publication - looks like Switzerland to me - especially the little tractor - does it have a Swiss cross on the reg plate - if so is it the same one pictured elsewhere in the special - ie that now in Deutches Museum
By: - 1st July 2005 at 05:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Dave,
Done a bit of checking. A few opening points.
In the Darby book, could it just be an error, 'grey' instead of 'green'? Darby gets my respect, but there are errors in some of the books (as in all books! :rolleyes: )
The folks above have made pertinent points, but the main aspect to bear in mind is that it is (almost) certain than the colours were applied by Lockheed. In that case, they would be US sourced colo(u)rs to match a foreign requirement; or to put it the other way up, at delivery, no Hudsons were painted in non-US manufactured colours.
How close the match was to RAF colours was is not certain, but it is probably noticably different to the Dark Earth and Dark Green that was manufactured and applied in the UK. There has been theory, but no proof that RAAF and RCAF Hudsons were delivered in different colours to RAF batches. It seems very unlikely, although they were repainted in service into local colours. RNZAF Hudsons presumably come under this umberella as well.
Ian K Baker has explored this area in some detail in his Aviation History Colouring Book 53, Lockheed Hudson Camoflage Special. Unfortunately he doesn't discuss RNZAF Hudsons except in passing, and it's a long and complex story he tells. In (very brief) terms there is no mention of Lockheed providing brown and grey camoflage (hence my suspicion of a typo/error). Examining RAAF Hudsons, it is Ian's belief that they had Lockheed applied interpratations of RAF colours on delivery; green and brown, probably from DuPont, and as jeepman says above, ANA equivalents to RAF colours. It seems, though, highly likely that they were different hues to the actual British made colours.
Information IS available, tracked down by Dana Bell, to say that Curtiss colours on Tomahawks were supplied by Dupont, and it is probable that Lockheed used the same supplies, but there's no actual data known, on what Lockheed supplies were used.
The critical paragraph reads: "It appears fairly certain that as a generalisation we can say the entire production run of Hudsons of all marks, with the exception of some aircraft built for the US air forces, were given upper camoflage in dull shades of green and brown. A 1942 factory camoflage colours list relating to Hudson production included Temperate Sea Scheme colours, but AHCB concurs with US c&m historian Dana Bell's opinion that it seems very unlikely any Hudsons were actually factory-finished in that scheme before production ceased in May 1943."
In short, green and brown uppers from Lockheed, though there's little proof of the detail, no known exceptions, and the exact shades of green and brown are arguable and may have changed over the production run, but equating to Lockheed aiming for RAF 'Dark Green' and 'Dark Earth'.
There is some discussion of patterns (RAF 'A' and 'B' patterns, and their use by Lockheed) and under surface colours.
What colours? Ian Baker again:
"If the camoflage colours applied by Lockheed to its Hudsons were then also those applied by Curtiss to its Tomahawks and Kittyhawks, then the following FS colour matchings will be applicable. For the earlier green, a colour similar to, but blacker than, 34092. For the earlier brown, a colour similar to 30099. For the later, slightly lighter shade of green a colour similar to 34092. For the later, darker alternative brown, a colour similar to 30118. For the later,lighter alternative brown, a colour similar to 30219. If Dark Olive Drab or something similar was used in place of green, then it was a colour very similar to 33070. For the light toned undersides that followed black and 'silver', 36463 is very much like sky grey."
You will note the wide sprinkling of weasel words above. Proof on Hudson colours is tough to find!
Ian's books are available in NZ from NZ Models - [email]nzmodels@paradise.net.nz[/email] and Ian's not on the web, but a fax to +61 (0)3 5258 3166 will garner the other retail details.
HTH,
James
By: - 2nd July 2005 at 02:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks James,
It could well be that the word 'grey' was typed in error. The aircraft in question is NZ2003, which was the first Hudson to fly in New Zealand and was diverted from an RAF order, so I'm sure it must have arrived here in US-versions of RAF Dark Earth and RAF Dark Green with RAF Sky underneath. It doesn't make a lot of sense for this to have been grey and dark earth. That is why I asked the question.
However, when you compare the photo to the ones above it, the paint is a markedly different colour. The photo above it shows NZ2004 just after arrival and assembly, it hasn't yet received its guns and suadron code. The paint work on it is much darker in shade and yet the lighting seems as sunny as the photo of NZ2003. So as NZ2003 is taken when it was at No. 1 OTU, this must be mid-late 1943, and the paint must have simply faded really badly to a much paler version of its former self.
RNZAF Hudsons were seen in a variety of colours - the Dark Green/Dark Grey/Sky colours they mostly arrived in, which is the scheme that MOTAT's Hudson is painted in, and this is how they first ventured forward into the Pacific war zone too.
Then later in the war most got a repaint in NZ Green and Pacific Blue, which were unique NZ colours, and this is how the RNZAF Museum's example is painted.
However a number of Hudsons were converted to become cargo versions, the C-63, and these were repainted at that time in overall Olive Drab like the C-47's and Lodestars of the RNZAF's transport squadrons.
After the war many were stripped to bare metal and some received the international Air Sea Recue roundel (yellow cross on blue circle). There is a decal sheet option in this colour scheme available for the Classic Airframes kitset in 1/48th. (did any other air forces actually use that roundel? I've only ever seen it on the RNZAF Hudsons)
Posts: 5,576
By: Dave Homewood - 18th June 2005 at 14:25
In Charles Darby's book "RNZAF - The First Decade" he states that a lot of the Hudsons that entered service with the RNZAF arrived from the factory painted dark grey, dark earth and sky.
Many of our hudsons were diverted from RAF orders. The usual combination for RAF aircraft would have been dark earth and green, or later green and grey, but this combination straight from the factory is fairly odd to me, of dark earth and grey.
Does anyone know the specific colour details? The Federal Standard or British Standard number and nomenclature of the "dark grey" paint? In the photos it doesn't appear to be terribly dark.
Did Hudsons serve in the RAF in this scheme? If so, where? Was it a Middle East/Med scheme or something?