Lebanese Hunters

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19 years 4 months

Posts: 2,290

I've just been sniffing about to see if the Lebanese Air Force still have any of it's Hawker Hunters left and apparantly they have, only kept in store.
On the other hand there's an article published on the net by reporter Robert Fiske from inside Lebanon suggesting that the Air Force still has 3 operational Hunters available, so who knows.
Hunter v F15, I think not, unless he got close enough for a quick squirt with the Aden cannon.

Original post

Member for

20 years 2 months

Posts: 2,508

The Lebanese Air Force is currently only a helicopter force, so their only hope of fighting in the air is to restore their Hunters to airworthiness, which have even outlived their Mirages! In 2000, they had six Hunters in storage, 3 X F.70s + 3 X FGA.70As, but who knows how many could be made airworthy?

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 9,780

It's the American's that usually bomb Hawker Hunters on the ground!

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20 years 6 months

Posts: 2,230

That rather assumes the neighbouring war criminals haven't bombed the storage facility...

Did'nt you know you can't be a war Criminal if the USA sold you your weopon's, It's not like in 2006 the World would just stand by and watch a nation bombed to pieces is it?.
Sorry this is nothing to do with Historic Avaition i'm just touchy because my Good friend is from Lebanon and his family and most Lebananese don't deserve this.

Member for

19 years 4 months

Posts: 2,290

It's the American's that usually bomb Hawker Hunters on the ground!

I take it that you refer to the Iraqi airfield decoys, obviously they were taking no chances in case they were capable of being deployed against F-15's, those pilots up at Lakenheath probably avoid Kemble and Exeter at all costs.
Hopefully the Lebanese have some Vampires left to see off the IDF F-16's.

I shouldn't be so flippant about the situation, it's not funny, I heard this morning that a third of all Lebanese killed are children, I agree with both DB's and Duxfordhawk's sentiments, it did start off as an innocent thread about Hawker Hunters, but emotions are bound to run high over this issue, it really got me this morning to see that poor woman sobbing onboard Bulwark because they had been bombing the Christian area, why?

I seriously doubt whether even if the Lebanese airforce had scores of operational Hunters, that they would commit them to combat, but who knows, some brave souls might attempt it, in this situation, trying to protect their country, Hunter v Apache could be a good bet, but it's what happens afterwards when the wolfpacks move in.

Just peeping round the curtains to see if Mossad are sneeking up the drive.

Member for

18 years 5 months

Posts: 413

This is a terrible situation and the Israelis are doing the Jewish people no good what so ever.

Naturally current affairs has allways been a major topic of conversation, but what has shocked me deeply over the last few days is the number of angry people who have expressed views in private that border on the 'intellectually anti-semetic.' Now bearing in mind that the Jews have been persecuted and subject to pogroms and attrocities since at least the middle ages, I can see that the root anti-semitism that the Nazis manipulted is still deeply ingrained and could easily again raise its head.

The really scary thing though is that the Nazis killed so many more Jews than earlier persecutions/attrocites/genocides because they applied industrial technology to the process. With advances in technology one can only be terrified at what another state sponsored, organised and funded holocaust might achieve.

If we want to prevent this (and I certainly do) then we need to understand the causes of the holocaust and a simplification of it to 'Evil Nazis and Inncoent Jews' is just not good enough, if only because the relationship between Jews and Germans had broken down long before Hitler came on the scene. As indeed it has done between Jews and host peoples in numerous places before on numerous occaisions.

We tend to be historians and their ilk upon this site, maybe the time is ripe for a proper debate upon this subject, rather than shying back from it, because it is PC to just accept the common simplification of 'Evil Nazis (which they undoubtably were) and Inncoent Jews'

However is a Historic aviation Forum the right place?

Steve.

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 9,780

Some would argue that the Israeli's are attacking the terrorists who are firing rockets over the border at them . I don't recall the Iraqi people firing any rockets at us but we still bombed them.

Member for

18 years 5 months

Posts: 413

I agree David,

But does that mean that in 1946 when the Stern Gang were targetting and killing British troops we would have been justified in turning the might of Bomber Command against Tel-Aviv? just because some members lived there. What is a proportionate response? and are the Israelis attacking legitimate military targets? Protocol 1 of the Geneva convention states:

'If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship, house, school or other civilian object is used for military purposes, then it will be presumed not to be a legitimate military target. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)'

Article 51 of the same Protocol regarding indescriminate attacks also makes for interesting reading, in these cirumstances.

I think one of the problems here like the European Convention on Human Rights is that far too few people have ever read them; If your interested there is a very interesting guide to the Geneva Conventions here.

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

Steve.

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24 years 2 months

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Similarily did we need to vapourise everyone inside an Iraqi restaurant because we thought Saddam was there ?

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18 years 5 months

Posts: 413

Hmmm... this has often worried me, it's said that the victor writes the history. But do we perhaps too easily justify our sides less savoury deeds as 'necessary and excusable,' in order to defeat an enemy who by deffinition are 'evil' and behave far worse. Then do our sides misdeeds get subconsciously excluded from main stream history, as unrepresentative in order to protect our collective self respect.

For example I saw a TV program the other week, which I think was 'War of the World' on Channel Four with Prof. Niall Fergusson, which was questioning why the Jappanese had a reputation for never surrendering. The program had some film of American Troops apparently executing Japs who had just given themselves up. True or not it certainly made one think.

Steve.

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 138

I have been trying to resist posting but feel I must (and see if anyone agrees with me).

Ordinarily I would say that places such as Lebanon, where Islamic terrorists originate from, are just getting whats deserved, but on this occasion I think the Israelis have gone OTT.

To my mind a more appropriate response would be to have sent in special forces to locate and free their captured soldiers and to make strikes against the Hezbollah rocket launching sites. What they have done is to destroy a lot of civilian infrastructure - power stations, roads, bridges, the civilian airport in Beirut, the port, killing lots of civilians along the way and preventing civilians from getting out or supplies getting in. I have even heard they attacked civilian convoys attempting to get to Syria. On the whole, the Lebanese do not seem to be the most radical Islamic nation, indeed theres quite a large Christian population and a variety of other religious groups who probably dont (or didnt) have a problem with Israel.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese government are not one in the same and nor do I think the latter has much (if any) influence or control over the former, although they should probably be trying harder to keep them in line.

Getting back on topic, even if Lebanon does have some Hunters, as has been said, there would be no point in sending them up against the IAF as they would get slaughtered. Aside from the Israelis having top American equipment, they also have arguably the most rigourous training and the most dedication of any airforce in the world with 3 trained pilots for each aircraft. A very large percentage of young Israelis also wish to join their armed forced and defend what they see as their country by religious right and so the ones that make it through are very dedicated to their purpose.

Member for

19 years 4 months

Posts: 2,290

I only started this thread as an enquiry over Lebanese Hunters, but I suppose, rightly so, it has stirred passions over the current situation. I agree with what both Megalith and TobyV have to say, in my experience from talking to the lowest building site workers, to profesionals and ordinary people, Israel are doing themselves no favours and anti-semitism is indeed beginning to rear it's ugly head.
What the outcome of this will be is anyones guess, how the Israeli military think that they can destroy Hezbollah with this overpowering military force is beyond me, a few months down the line and they will be marching through Beirut with their yellow flags, freshly supplied with new weapons from certain countries.
I have no profound comments or statements to make on the subject, the Arab/Israeli conflict has been with me all my life and I have always been pessimistic about the situation, I have never been able to see any way in which it could be resolved.

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18 years 10 months

Posts: 4,796

does that mean that in 1946 when the Stern Gang were targetting and killing British troops we would have been justified in turning the might of Bomber Command against Tel-Aviv? just because some members lived there.

According to the Israeli's own Rules of Engagement: Yes.

Ya just know the IDF ain't gonna do a "USS Liberty" type stunt on the Illustrious & Bulwark etc..

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 146

The way I see it, folks in Europe and the USA are able to sit at ease and define their day to day perspectives from a distance. Even though the same wordly information and underastandings are available to Israel, the reality of their everyday lives and the precariousness of their day-to-day existence surely has a major influence on the way they respond to being prodded. I agree that their response has been way over the top in regard to the nature of the provocation, but existing amid that cauldron of dissent and under the cloud of endless Islamic persectution has certainly frayed the permanent nerve of the country.

Anyone who's been physically harrassed by another party nonstop over an extended period of time knows exactly how that situation creates a psycological condition that degrades the finer aspects of rationality and reaction. I think the color of Israel's response is a perfect exhibition of that very syndrome. It doesn't excuse their use of overwhelming force against all of Lebanon, but IMO it does partially define the rationality behind their reaction.

I'm not "for" anyone in this fight because the chaos and death of war absolutely sucks, but I was somewhat suprised that no one in this thread had a peep to say about Hezbolah itself - the instigators of the curent debacle. Without their terroristic actions, all of the children (only the Lebanese ones, oddly) mentioned above would be going about their daily lives.

Member for

17 years 9 months

Posts: 754

Did'nt you know you can't be a war Criminal if the USA sold you your weopon's, It's not like in 2006 the World would just stand by and watch a nation bombed to pieces is it?.
Sorry this is nothing to do with Historic Avaition i'm just touchy because my Good friend is from Lebanon and his family and most Lebananese don't deserve this.

Here here!! Hate to think of the hell that is going on there at the moment makes all your worries seem pathetic doesnt it? doubt if anyone will get much chance to look for the hunters even if they could be flown!

Member for

17 years 9 months

Posts: 754

This is a terrible situation and the Israelis are doing the Jewish people no good what so ever.

Naturally current affairs has allways been a major topic of conversation, but what has shocked me deeply over the last few days is the number of angry people who have expressed views in private that border on the 'intellectually anti-semetic.' Now bearing in mind that the Jews have been persecuted and subject to pogroms and attrocities since at least the middle ages, I can see that the root anti-semitism that the Nazis manipulted is still deeply ingrained and could easily again raise its head.

The really scary thing though is that the Nazis killed so many more Jews than earlier persecutions/attrocites/genocides because they applied industrial technology to the process. With advances in technology one can only be terrified at what another state sponsored, organised and funded holocaust might achieve.

If we want to prevent this (and I certainly do) then we need to understand the causes of the holocaust and a simplification of it to 'Evil Nazis and Inncoent Jews' is just not good enough, if only because the relationship between Jews and Germans had broken down long before Hitler came on the scene. As indeed it has done between Jews and host peoples in numerous places before on numerous occaisions.

We tend to be historians and their ilk upon this site, maybe the time is ripe for a proper debate upon this subject, rather than shying back from it, because it is PC to just accept the common simplification of 'Evil Nazis (which they undoubtably were) and Inncoent Jews'

However is a Historic aviation Forum the right place?

Steve.

I think with slaughter of this magnitude any place is the right place !

What i cant get my head around is how can a people (or the government of that people) who have suffered so greviously in the past cause others to suffer so much over all these years?

Theirs is not the only Government ( Yo Bush could do with listening AS WELL!) to ignore the fact that the more you opress the more rebellion you will cause, the more innocents who die the more the next generation will grow to hate you..I honestly fear for a world that has ignored these basic facts for so long..I cant see us surviving intact for much longer ,god forbid even more 9/11's 7/7's Madrids etc...it will only get worse.

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17 years 9 months

Posts: 754

.... but I was somewhat suprised that no one in this thread had a peep to say about Hezbolah itself - the instigators of the curent debacle. Without their terroristic actions, all of the children (only the Lebanese ones, oddly) mentioned above would be going about their daily lives.

Remember the old adage about one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter ? or that this years terrorist is next years statesman!

and lets not forget the comment made this week and i think going back for many years ..."it would appear that 14 Arab deaths equate to 1 Isreali "

. dont forget that some people are left with no other option than to use force of arms to make their voices heard..

And dont take this as an apology or support for terrorism As someone who has suffered quite a bit at the hands of "terrorists/ freedom fighters" i know the terror at first hand of having a gun shoved in your mouth ! but that was nothing compared to the suffering of those innocents in many parts of the world at the receiving end of a warplanes payload!

Many " civilisied " countries around the world have used terrorism as a weapon as well ...Spain ( GAL), USA (Contras).etc etc etc...

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 146

I completely agree with the common assessment of how completely tragic the current debacle is. I draw the root of my logic in the fact that, if the Islamic radicals surrounding Israel simply stopped attacking that country, there would be no more bloodshed! There's always a more civilized court for addressing grievances, but the Islamic radicals continually default to the sword over the pen, so blood is what they summon for all the otherwise innocent masses who count on them for security and political leadership.

It's kind of like watching some guy beating his head against a rock. The poor bloody soul is screaming about his pain, loss, and the whole unfair tragedy of it all, and all I want to do is scream "Then stop beating your head against the damned rock then!". I have great pity for the Lebanese people caught in the crossfire of this rediculous mess, which is directly counterbalanced by my total disdain for Hezbolah and their tactic of deliberately hiding their military command among the civilian populance, obviously relying on the inevitable innocent deaths as part of their equation for political sympathy. That's as perverse as it gets, and knowing they have the ability to stop the bloodshed instantly at anytime makes it VERY easy for me to blame them for the current situation - past politics be damned.

Those Lebanese citizens were alive and content two weeks ago, and are dead today because the power that controls their country (Hezbolah) is willing to see them slaughtered to further Hezbolah's cause - period. Dredge up the minutiae of a 50-year old feud if you like, but the rockets are still raining heavily on Israel just as they were before a single Lebanese life was lost in this fight. Stop the rockets and you cut the legs out from underneath Israel's justification for retaliation. Still, there's no outcry here for Hezbolah to cease fire in order to save those lives and infrastructure that so many here are waxing tragic over.

By their actions, Hezbolah and radical Islam are telling the world that the destruction ofthese innocent Lebonese lives is the required price for maintaining pressure against Israel. If they did not, they would cease fire, diffuse the battle instantly, spare those lives, and let the world hold Israel accountable for their obtuse reaction to the situation. Fact is, those who rule Lebanon care more about serving their hatred than they do about serving their own populance. That being the case, I can't see how Israel can apparently be held solely responsible for the plight of the Lebanese people, as is seemingly reflected by so many in this thread.

Member for

20 years 10 months

Posts: 419

The IRA bombed us for years and we didn't level Belfast or attack the South did we. Just because some people may not like what Israel is doing (me included) doesn't make them anti semitic - it's a nation doing the bombing not a religion.

The Israelis invented terrorism,ironically during their armed struggle against us Brits their "freedom fighters" kidnapped two British soldiers and killed them.

It's not so clever of the Lebanese to vote in Hezbollah or the Palestinians to vote for Hamas, but you can understand why they did. No real change will happen until there is a nation state for the Palestinians, but even then I doubt if there will ever be peace.

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17 years 8 months

Posts: 3

don't do politics ttfn