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By: - 23rd May 2007 at 03:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fantastic news Mike, I look forward to making a little side-trip over to Gatineau at some point this summer.
James
By: - 23rd May 2007 at 12:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would like to see you again. The first open house is June 2nd. The Lysander can be viewed then, although it may not be reassembled by that time.
Mike
By: - 24th May 2007 at 19:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Vintage Wings -Aircraft
That is great news. I am so impressed with Mr.Potter and his commitment to
preserve Canada's aviation history. Any word on when the F4U Corsair will
arrive?
Thanks!
By: - 26th May 2007 at 14:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here's a few pictures of the Lysander from my visit to Harry Whereatt's farm on 15 September 2005.
Dennis
By: - 30th May 2007 at 13:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is great news. I am so impressed with Mr.Potter and his commitment to
preserve Canada's aviation history. Any word on when the F4U Corsair will
arrive?Thanks!
The Corsair will be arriving at Vintage Wings this Thursday at around 5 PM weather permitting.
Mike
By: - 30th May 2007 at 13:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How many airworthy and potentially airworthy Lizzies are there?
By: - 30th May 2007 at 13:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did a rundown on WIX. Copy [EDIT] paste...
Are there any Lysanders flying in US or Canada?
bill word
Hi Bill,
Currently no. The nearest is the CWH machine, which has been completed to airworthy condition, and has undertaken engine runs in 2005. As ever, there's still things to do, though so it's yet to fly.
Harry Wherratt's [Now the Vintage Wings of Canada machine] also in Canada, may have flown, but no one's telling! The example in the Smithsonian, at the new Udvar Hazy centre (probably the example Blurrkup's thinking of) was airworthy when restored by Dwight Brooks and 'Fish' Salmon in the 80s. Likewise, Kermit's example was airworthy in the UK before he bought it. Back further, the Canadian Aviation Museum's example was flown after restoration, but that was in the sixties.
Elsewhere, the Shuttleworth example flew this weekend, and is the only currently airworthy example in the world. The Aircraft Restoration Company have the rebuild of a Westland built example underway to fly at Duxford, but that's a way to go yet. In Belgium, the Sabena Old Timers are repairing their example after a landing accident some years ago.
The problem with Lysanders is twofold. They aren't a complex aircraft, but they are odd, both in construction and aerodynamics and thus flying technique. Being a British '30s design, it's a tube frame with wooden stringers and fabric covering structure, with aditional metal panels - not stressed skin construction, lots of fiddly structure, and the short-landing trim and flap arrangement is unique, and a killer for the unwary, although under wartime conditions, unbeatable.
Most critically, they were engined with the Bristol Mercury and Bristol Perseus, the latter being a sleeve-valve and effectively, in working form, extinct. Until ARC came along and 'tamed' the Mercury with their Blenheim, only Shuttleworth had managed to run one (in their case on a Gladiator) for any length of time. Generally other operators gave up with trying to get the engine to behave. It's not, I'm told impossible, but it's very different to other (particularly US) radials and requires a different approach - something pre-ARC operators never seem to have got on top of.
Kermit has one in Lakeland, non-flying. Until you see one in person, its hard to be impressed with it. Once you see it, wow, cool airplane. Big and strong, lots of power.
Wouldn't argue with that. It's a BIG 'plane. Incidentally, the pilot's position (once you've mountain-climbed into it) has to have one of the best views of the period.
Anybody know if any of the remaining Lysanders are displayed with the .303 brownings still mounted in the Wheel fairings and with the Wheel fairing bomb racks?Beautiful bird.
The CWH example was certainly test-fitted with Brownings - I have photos. Once the access panels are closed, you can't tell, though, and except the Langley machine, as mentioned,I don't know if any of the grounded ones do. I don't think those others under restoration to fly, or Shuttleworth's do. None have the stub wing fitted. The actual rack (which would be hung under the stub wing) was usually just a 'Mk.1 Light Series Carrier', as used across the Commonwealth on many types. There was normally (when fitted) a third under the rear fuselage, as well.
It doesn't sound like getting a Lysander flying is a very easy thing to do. My museum (Canadian Museum of flight, Langley BC) has one and just out of curiosity I e-mailed the CWH to ask if they'd suggest getting ours flying. The person that responded said it is a very BIG undertaking, and suggested that we just keep the plane as is, maybe restore it to static, but certainly not to flying status unless we really really want to.The big cost is the engine. We'd need to get a Mercury from the National Museum in Ottawa for a trade, but I don't know what we'd be willing to give up to get it.
Dave, it would certainly cost a bomb, and the engine cost, although big, would vanish alongside the other costs. If you want to explore it further, drop me a note and I'll put you in touch with the other restorers, and they'll give you some scary data, I'm sure.
Your Lizzie is an excellent 'showpiece' as it is, and IMHO should be kept like that. It was certainly useful for my book!
This is all because I'm author of 'The Westland Lysander', MMP Books.
Cheers!
By: - 30th May 2007 at 13:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks James, as ever a mine of information ! :)
By: - 30th May 2007 at 14:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks, BR.
Like most people, when I took on the job or researching the Lizzie for our book, I knew what everyone knew. As with most types, once you start to look, loads of great stories just fall into your hands, unused, because no-one had bothered to look before - it wasn't 'famous'. Trading pictures and information between restorations was also a (very small) bit of help to getting those Lizzie back together, and, where appropriate, airworthy.
Cheers
By: - 30th May 2007 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well said James, of note there seems to be no stubby wings left in the world for the Lizzie? and Vince Oconnors Lizzie s will have the 303s fitted when complete. Also of note in regards to the engines both Harry Wheratts and the CWHs Lizzie have ex-Bolyingbroke Mercurys fitted with slight difference being the spring tension in the carbs causing some trouble for Harry with an engine fire when he first started his Lizzie a few years back after rebuild, and the CWHs carb springs have since been sorted out. The Lizzie is a work of art typically British in design and needs to be seen up close to be appreciated, I have spent many hours with Vince Oconnor working on his and coming to garner an appreciation on the old girl and a big headache soon to come trying to rebuild a Mercury, good luck in dealing with Ottawa getting something from them, Harrys spare engine went to Potter as well as a host of spares. I have located 2 Lizzie cockpit sections here in Canada but am "mum" at the moment, although Vince does have a second Lizzie project which he has hinted at selling, but I suspect static only, keep the Lizzie postings coming, cheers Darrell
By: - 31st May 2007 at 00:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great news Mike, I will have to stop down to Gatineau again in the fall. By the way my brother and I were greatly impressed with the collection of Mr. Potter and the presentation in the hanger looks amazing. Anyhow I just wanted to thank you for the tour of the hanger back a couple weeks ago as it was one of the highlights of our trip to Ottawa.
Are any of the aircraft going to be at Yankee or the Gathering of Legends this summer?
Jeremy
By: - 31st May 2007 at 06:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Darrell,
Thanks for that.
Well said James, of note there seems to be no stubby wings left in the world for the Lizzie?
Thank you! There may not be. Construction can't be too difficult though... Easy to say, of course.
...and Vince Oconnors Lizzie s will have the 303s fitted when complete. Also of note in regards to the engines both Harry Wheratts and the CWHs Lizzie have ex-Bolyingbroke Mercurys fitted with slight difference being the spring tension in the carbs causing some trouble for Harry with an engine fire when he first started his Lizzie a few years back after rebuild, and the CWHs carb springs have since been sorted out.
The Wherratt machine has the Canadian Bollingbroke fitted heater jacket too; which was fitted on one of the airworthy British machines in the 80s. This is shown by the four intakes in the upper cowling, as seen in Dennis B's nice photo. Those were never seen on Lysanders, but certainly on Bollys.
The Lizzie is a work of art typically British in design and needs to be seen up close to be appreciated, I have spent many hours with Vince Oconnor working on his and coming to garner an appreciation on the old girl and a big headache soon to come trying to rebuild a Mercury, good luck in dealing with Ottawa getting something from them, Harrys spare engine went to Potter as well as a host of spares. I have located 2 Lizzie cockpit sections here in Canada but am "mum" at the moment, although Vince does have a second Lizzie project which he has hinted at selling, but I suspect static only, keep the Lizzie postings coming
All v. interesting, as you say, let's keep it coming!
Cheers
By: - 31st May 2007 at 16:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"modern" era Lysander memories
It has been some time since our Lysander project involvments, but these are some memories without going back to our photo collections. I shall look in one of these many boxes of loose photos, and see if I can find some (of the approx 50) photos we have when we first found and moved "our" Lysander from Manitoba, to the East coast U.S, to UK. The photos and our correspondence showed several Lysanders on the gear with wings removed, and spare engines, There were also several bomobers at this farmer's collection.
We arranged to buy the "package" we considered to be in the best condition for restoration, and sent some workers to Western Canada to load it up and bring it back to East Coast (circa 1969?). I well remember that they told us it took them two weeks JUST to LOAD the project, as the middle of the Canadian Winter allowed them to only work for about 15 minutes at a time, outdoors! Lots of smashed wing ribs and moving damage PRIOR to our finding them, but structualy sound and not damaged from crashes etc.I MUST find those photos of the choices we had. We also bought a spare engine (firewall forward, as I recall) and I seem to remember they were Mercury IXs. We sold them to UK private collector Phillip Mann, who had several interesting aircraft at the time. (one being the rare Civilian Coupe, which we provided some parts for his A.S. Genet engine, and we shipped him two Rearwins, including one of the popular Pan Am Instrument trainers-the Rearwin 8135T-ALSO-beautifully restored by Personal Plane Services))Mr. Mann had an excellent relationship with the Bianchis, at Personal Plane Services, and they sent us regular photo updates of the progress of this privately funded restoration to airworthiness. I recall the excitement at having Dunlop provide assistance with original tire molds, at one point) After several years this Lysander DID fly again. I believe that the great Neil Williams flew it for Mr. Mann. I recall that when Neil met with tragedy, in another aircraft, that all or most of the "paperwork" for this Lysander was with him and was lost. Mr. Mann later sold the Lysander to another well-known UK collector (don't recall at the moment-was it Doug Arnold?) who could better deal with this lost paperwork situation. As Mann mentioned that the only way this one could now be approved for flight, required the virtual equivalent of an Annual inspection bfore each flight, at least until things were sorted out. This is from memory, and may not be entirely accurate, some 30 years later..
By: - 31st May 2007 at 17:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Found some of the "before" photos. These are low res, so I could post a couple of them at a time.There are several Lysanders shown here on the same farm. I am posting a slightly larger photo of the photo with Blenheim IV so you can see another one of these Lysanders to the right of it.
By: - 1st June 2007 at 17:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What is the purpose of those four funnel-shaped thingies at the top of G-FIZZ's engine, just under the exaust collector ring? i've only noticed them on photos of Mercurys attached to Canadian aircraft (East Fortune's Bolingbroke also has them).
Best wishes
Steve P
By: - 1st June 2007 at 18:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Steve P
Check out James' posting of May 30, he's the man that knows.
"The Wherratt machine has the Canadian Bollingbroke fitted heater jacket too; which was fitted on one of the airworthy British machines in the 80s. This is shown by the four intakes in the upper cowling, as seen in Dennis B's nice photo. Those were never seen on Lysanders, but certainly on Bollys."
Steve M.
By: - 1st June 2007 at 19:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Steve, I don't know how I missed that. :o
I bought JDK's Lysander book a couple of weeks ago - it's a superb work.
Best wishes
Steve P
By: - 2nd June 2007 at 14:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Steve, I don't know how I missed that. :o
You aren't alone, some Lysander re-builders don't seem to have been that sure about it either! :D
What's interesting is the heater unit attached to the Mk.II Canadian Lysanders. Because they had the more tightly cowled sleeve-valve Persus engines, the heater unit had to go on the outside. I've never seen a reference to it until a chap (Dogsbody) on the Air Warfare Forum asked if anyone knew what the 'lump' was on a photo of a Canadian Mk.II. A bit of digging around came up with more photos with evidence, plus a few indirect references in Canadian papers - yet for over half a century, this (admittedly minor) mod was completely 'forgotten'. All part of the fun.
I bought JDK's Lysander book a couple of weeks ago - it's a superb work.:o Thank you.
It was some hard work, but very worth doing. My respect for the Army Co-op, ASR, Canadian trainers and of course the SOE crews, as well as the (mostly) forgotten Indian Air Force users (plus, of course, the others) made the job thoroughly worthwhile. And I had unstinting help from people, some here, literally worldwide.
Not planning a new edition just yet, but we have some other interesting subjects on the way, including a very good book by Alex Crawford of Furies and Nimrods, and another by a forumite here on the Skua and Roc in the not too distant future. Watch the MMP books 'space'. ;)
Cheers
By: - 2nd June 2007 at 14:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
tut tut *cough* blatant advertising *cough* :) ;)
By: - 3rd June 2007 at 02:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
tut tut *cough* blatant advertising *cough* :) ;)
No, blatant advertising is the junk everywhere telling me to see 'Pirates of the Caribbean' which I have no interest in. :cool:
Posts: 145
By: mrhenniger - 23rd May 2007 at 02:55
Vintage Wings of Canada Press Release
23 May 2007
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Vintage Wings of Canada is pleased to announce the acquisition of another aircraft to the Gatineau based collection. A Westland Lysander has been obtained from Anna Whereatt of Assiniboia, Saskatchewan, Canada. This particular example is a Mark IIIa which was operated by the Royal Canadian Air Force during WWII as serial number 2365.
Anna along with her husband Harry, obtained the Lysander in 1977, one that had spent much time in open storage on a farm. It was one of two reasonably complete airframes in addition to four other Lysanders which were used as parts sources, all of which were obtained from various locations from the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s. The Whereatt family progressed the restoration of 2365 over the years and it is now complete. Although 2365 has not been flown since the work was completed it is in very good condition. Michael Potter, founder of Vintage Wings, comments “It will undergo a deep airframe survey and we will have both the engine and propeller overhauled. Until we have the airplane on hand and develop a plan, we are unable to estimate the date of its first flight. Currently we believe that we can do that within 18 months. We will be transporting it to Gatineau over the next week and hope to have it on hand for visitors by the end of the month.”
The acquisition of the Lysander is an important one. The fighter and trainers are well represented in the Vintage Wings collection, but utility aircraft like the Lysander are not. Lysanders were often used in target towing roles in Canada and perhaps are most well known for clandestine operations into France during WWII in support of the Free French. The mission of Vintage Wings is to inspire and educate future generations about the historical significance of our aviation heritage and the Lysander will be a great aid in doing so. This means there are many potential paint schemes. Michael Potter comments, “We do not know how it will be painted. There are so many wonderful stories about this imposing but peculiar airplane and we will certainly want to do something to stimulate interest in this fascinating part of WWII history.” You can be assured the Vintage Wings historical team is looking for a colour scheme which will allow the Lysander crews to be commemorated and future generations to be inspired.
The Whereatt family is happy the Lysander is staying in Canada. They recently visited the Vintage Wings hangar and inspected an airframe formerly owned by Harry, a Hurricane Mk XII, s/n 5447. They were impressed with the hangar, but even more pleased with the crew and are confident the Lysander is going to a good home.
Mike Henniger