By: Hornchurch
- 27th January 2009 at 18:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ill email the chap now
edit: email sent waiting on a reply :)
`
Nashio ; kudos to you mate, for being 'Ballsy' enought to ask !
Ya sure made me chuckle when I read your initial (above) post
I'm bitterly regretting (now) the fact that on one of my early Duxford trips (circa '79/'80), I ONLY bothered to take one or two pix, of the Tempest II that ended up going to Kermit Weeks, after it had sold (with it's broken wing-spar) for £ 85,000 at auction.
Such a shame that a Napier-Sabre Mk.V will forever remain a dream....(sigh):(
New
Posts: 3,214
By: Nashio966
- 27th January 2009 at 18:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
stick around, im here all week :D
yeh well i thought i might as well, may have told a small porkie in that myself and a few business partners were interested in purchasing the aircraft (seeing as im 20) though i thought i might recieve a more agreeable response from the chap.
i would love to see so many aircraft in the air again, so i feel what you say, but i guess we arent the only ones. something my dad always told me when i was younger
"anything is possible if you put your mind to it"
which i intend to apply to the "how much would it take to get XR220 back in the air again?"
argument :diablo:
By: Propstrike
- 27th January 2009 at 18:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suspect that it's one of those cases where..................if you need to ask the price, then you can't afford it!
This has been for sale since early last year, if not longer. I don't think people are queuing round the block to grab it.
The problems of getting it airworthy make it an unknown quantity, and as such there is no established market, and so no market price. It is safe to suppose the vendors want as much as they can get!
If its future is as a static display airframe, I reckon £75K ;)
By: Hornchurch
- 27th January 2009 at 19:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This has been for sale since early last year, if not longer. I don't think people are queuing round the block to grab it.
The problems of getting it airworthy make it an unknown quantity, and as such there is no established market, and so no market price. It is safe to suppose the vendors want as much as they can get!
If its future is as a static display airframe, I reckon £75K ;)
`
Jeez, that's 10k LESS , than Kermit's example from 29 years ago !!!:confused:
By: pogno
- 27th January 2009 at 19:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I for one would be happy to see a Tempest II made airworthy using a US made radial in the same way as the Sea Fury racers. The fitting of such an engine does not require modification to the airframe, its all ahead of the firewall, so reversion to Centaurus could be made in the future. It would at least make one fly.
Although what about a Griffon powered one with a Sabre shaped cowling, that would only leave the sound to the imagination.
By: VX927
- 27th January 2009 at 19:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Although what about a Griffon powered one with a Sabre shaped cowling, that would only leave the sound to the imagination.
The Tempest IV was a Griffon powered aircraft... I'd certainly be happy to see a Tempest fly with a Griffon up front... And I dont think it's beyond the realms of possibility!
By: Propstrike
- 27th January 2009 at 20:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
`
Jeez, that's 10k LESS , than Kermit's example from 29 years ago !!!:confused:
That was the 2nd Mk11 prototype, and already in display condition. There's 7 of these came back from India, none are near flying and they are not all that rare.
Most of the Spits that were brought back at the same time are flying now, but the one that was at the Museum of War in London went to auction and didn't make much, under £50K I think.
Furthermore, there is still much work needed on 376, and the market is depressed at present. So the question is, which museum, which doesn't have a Tempest, wants one, and what can they afford to pay? A flying Sea Fury could be picked up for circa £350,000 not that long ago. The market may even have fallen since then.
If you are thinking this is all amateur guesswork, you are quite right:)
By: Fournier Boy
- 27th January 2009 at 20:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wouldn't even say a Fury would fetch that now. I know an immaculate one that failed to sell for £300,000 not that long ago - and its much easier to get spares for that one! With the UK economy in decline, and some people finding the pinch - I'm seeing a lot of aircraft coming up fairly cheap - and trust me i am in the market for one!
Personally looking at this Tempest, and bearing in mind the overhaul costs for that particular powerplant, plus all the rework and inspections that would be required to those areas already "restored" I'd say £50k is quite an high offer.
I see no point in pricing an airframe for static reasons. If the new owner wants it to fly, they need to look beyond what it is - to what its going to cost to get it there. This I imagine is the reason it has been for sale for so long, as cost wise, unless this is realisticaly cheap - the Fury is the better option!
By: warhawk69
- 27th January 2009 at 20:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can't help thinking that if the Tempest/Centaurus airframe represented a potentially reliable and cost effective restoration project, that Stephen Grey/The Fighter Collection would have been one of the first to put one back into the air.
But as they seem to be swaying more and more towards Spiffires and american types is it perhaps more of a lack of spares for more obscure aircraft types that has put them off in the past - or maybe a potentially low residual resale value - or both.?
I think your forgeting that they already have 3 Sea Fury's!
By: DaveR
- 27th January 2009 at 22:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting to see their response and trying their best to make it a rarer than it is...I could be wrong :) but I don't remember seeing any references to a Tempest II defending against V1's!!! also Tempest II do have 2 aircraft but they also have in store another 2 that are privately owned...these are the ones that I believe were on the market at some point in the 90's.
Reading between the lines in their reply and knowing what others were asking for a Tempest I wouldn't be suprised if they were actually asking for a figure in the 100's of thousands of dollars...however a figure of 50k would be nice (but I can't see it somehow!!)
By: Propstrike
- 27th January 2009 at 23:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
best preserved Hawker Tempest II in existence. Should you be looking for a Sea Fury, the Tempest will not be a comparable purchase.
.
I interpret that as meaning that the vendor believes that this airframe is (price-wise) not in the same league as a Fury, ie more expensive. I would not be surprised if they are expecting £500.000 ! ;):rolleyes:.
Rare aircraft are hard to value. It would be interesting to see, for instance, what the unique contra-prop Seafire 47 would make. Maybe not as much as a stock P.51.......
New
Posts: 3,214
By: Nashio966
- 28th January 2009 at 00:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i gathered that from the response too. the seller obviously believes the aircraft to be worth a substantial amount of money and i think your £500,000 guess wouldnt be far off the mark,
how's about i ply this chap with a few more porkiepies and see if i can find what he wants for it? :diablo:
By: Bruce
- 28th January 2009 at 10:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, absolutely - let sleeping dogs lie I think.
There is a good parallel. The Iraqi Furies imported to the USA by Ed Jurist and David Tallichet were all sold years ago, and all but one I think were restored to fly - initially with the Centaurus, although most have been changed to American engines since.
The Tempests - I think there were six in total, have sat around, changed hands from time to time, but no-one has completed even one of them.
I think that says something about them, and whilst I wish Tempest Two all the best with their example in the near future, I think it may be the only one to get finished, unless it proves to be something really out of the ordinary!
By: T J Johansen
- 28th January 2009 at 13:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I seem to remember from an old Flypast article that the Tempest Two group was planning to rebuild one a/c with a Centaurus, and the other with a US engine. This was years ago. What has been holding back this project, availability of engine or lack of funds?
By: VX927
- 28th January 2009 at 14:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I seem to remember from an old Flypast article that the Tempest Two group was planning to rebuild one a/c with a Centaurus, and the other with a US engine. This was years ago. What has been holding back this project, availability of engine or lack of funds?
T J
The engine. As I understand it, the airframe is pretty much ready to go, but they are still waiting to get the engine back before they can move forward.
By: Sage the Owl
- 28th January 2009 at 17:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What this airframe needs is someone with the vision & drive of someone like Stephen Grey who can appreciate it for what it is, a historical artifact that needs to be preserved in its true element and not just looked at as a drain on the bank balance or stored until a killing can be made once people realise its true worth.
Easy for me to say I know, but at the end of the day isnt it about preservation for future generations rather than "Spitfire snobbery".
I seem to recall a few years ago (I think it was the old Hunter One collection) abandoned a plan to restore to flight a Hawker Sea Hawk because it wasnt economic, but surely thats not the point, if you love the machine you do whatever it takes regardless of cost. Paul Allens collection is a perfect example of this policy.
By: pagen01
- 28th January 2009 at 18:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Merlins have a better reliability and appeal, and support, hence the number of Spitfires etc
What rot, the fact that more Spitfires were built, everyone knows what a Spitfire is, and their huge following has more to do with the number of Spitfires about. The Hurricane is also merlin powered but you don't see lots of those about.
Without a doubt the sleeve valve Centaurus has proved more troublesome than the more straight forward Merlin, but not to the extent that ift prevents a really worthy project flying with one.
By: stuart gowans
- 28th January 2009 at 18:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I beg to differ, the Merlin gained its reputation, not for being the most powerfull, or the best design, but by virtue of the fact that it was capable of full throttle power loading, for longer than all of it's competitors, therefore it was inherently reliable; as it turned out, in 1944 an RM.17SM Merlin, was run for 15 mins at 36lb boost recording 2640hp, and so probably was the most powerfull, measured as a power to weight ratio.
Posts: 342
By: Hornchurch - 27th January 2009 at 18:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
`Nashio ; kudos to you mate, for being 'Ballsy' enought to ask !
Ya sure made me chuckle when I read your initial (above) post
I'm bitterly regretting (now) the fact that on one of my early Duxford trips (circa '79/'80), I ONLY bothered to take one or two pix, of the Tempest II that ended up going to Kermit Weeks, after it had sold (with it's broken wing-spar) for £ 85,000 at auction.
Such a shame that a Napier-Sabre Mk.V will forever remain a dream....(sigh):(
Posts: 3,214
By: Nashio966 - 27th January 2009 at 18:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
stick around, im here all week :D
yeh well i thought i might as well, may have told a small porkie in that myself and a few business partners were interested in purchasing the aircraft (seeing as im 20) though i thought i might recieve a more agreeable response from the chap.
i would love to see so many aircraft in the air again, so i feel what you say, but i guess we arent the only ones. something my dad always told me when i was younger
"anything is possible if you put your mind to it"
which i intend to apply to the "how much would it take to get XR220 back in the air again?"
argument :diablo:
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 27th January 2009 at 18:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This has been for sale since early last year, if not longer. I don't think people are queuing round the block to grab it.
The problems of getting it airworthy make it an unknown quantity, and as such there is no established market, and so no market price. It is safe to suppose the vendors want as much as they can get!
If its future is as a static display airframe, I reckon £75K ;)
Posts: 342
By: Hornchurch - 27th January 2009 at 19:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
`Jeez, that's 10k LESS , than Kermit's example from 29 years ago !!!:confused:
Posts: 1,194
By: pogno - 27th January 2009 at 19:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I for one would be happy to see a Tempest II made airworthy using a US made radial in the same way as the Sea Fury racers. The fitting of such an engine does not require modification to the airframe, its all ahead of the firewall, so reversion to Centaurus could be made in the future. It would at least make one fly.
Although what about a Griffon powered one with a Sabre shaped cowling, that would only leave the sound to the imagination.
Richard
Posts: 894
By: VX927 - 27th January 2009 at 19:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Tempest IV was a Griffon powered aircraft... I'd certainly be happy to see a Tempest fly with a Griffon up front... And I dont think it's beyond the realms of possibility!
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 27th January 2009 at 20:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That was the 2nd Mk11 prototype, and already in display condition. There's 7 of these came back from India, none are near flying and they are not all that rare.
Most of the Spits that were brought back at the same time are flying now, but the one that was at the Museum of War in London went to auction and didn't make much, under £50K I think.
Furthermore, there is still much work needed on 376, and the market is depressed at present. So the question is, which museum, which doesn't have a Tempest, wants one, and what can they afford to pay? A flying Sea Fury could be picked up for circa £350,000 not that long ago. The market may even have fallen since then.
If you are thinking this is all amateur guesswork, you are quite right:)
Posts: 1,037
By: Fournier Boy - 27th January 2009 at 20:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I wouldn't even say a Fury would fetch that now. I know an immaculate one that failed to sell for £300,000 not that long ago - and its much easier to get spares for that one! With the UK economy in decline, and some people finding the pinch - I'm seeing a lot of aircraft coming up fairly cheap - and trust me i am in the market for one!
Personally looking at this Tempest, and bearing in mind the overhaul costs for that particular powerplant, plus all the rework and inspections that would be required to those areas already "restored" I'd say £50k is quite an high offer.
I see no point in pricing an airframe for static reasons. If the new owner wants it to fly, they need to look beyond what it is - to what its going to cost to get it there. This I imagine is the reason it has been for sale for so long, as cost wise, unless this is realisticaly cheap - the Fury is the better option!
Rgds
FB
Posts: 528
By: warhawk69 - 27th January 2009 at 20:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think your forgeting that they already have 3 Sea Fury's!
Phill
www.outflankeduk.com
Posts: 486
By: DaveR - 27th January 2009 at 22:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting to see their response and trying their best to make it a rarer than it is...I could be wrong :) but I don't remember seeing any references to a Tempest II defending against V1's!!! also Tempest II do have 2 aircraft but they also have in store another 2 that are privately owned...these are the ones that I believe were on the market at some point in the 90's.
Reading between the lines in their reply and knowing what others were asking for a Tempest I wouldn't be suprised if they were actually asking for a figure in the 100's of thousands of dollars...however a figure of 50k would be nice (but I can't see it somehow!!)
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 27th January 2009 at 23:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I interpret that as meaning that the vendor believes that this airframe is (price-wise) not in the same league as a Fury, ie more expensive. I would not be surprised if they are expecting £500.000 ! ;):rolleyes:.
Rare aircraft are hard to value. It would be interesting to see, for instance, what the unique contra-prop Seafire 47 would make. Maybe not as much as a stock P.51.......
Posts: 3,214
By: Nashio966 - 28th January 2009 at 00:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i gathered that from the response too. the seller obviously believes the aircraft to be worth a substantial amount of money and i think your £500,000 guess wouldnt be far off the mark,
how's about i ply this chap with a few more porkiepies and see if i can find what he wants for it? :diablo:
Posts: 3,902
By: Propstrike - 28th January 2009 at 09:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would say it is a bit unfair to waste too much of anyone's time if the enquiry is essentially frivolous.
Also, I would not be at all surprised if the vendor was aware of this thead, and will soon put two and two together regarding his latest 'prospect'.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 28th January 2009 at 10:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, absolutely - let sleeping dogs lie I think.
There is a good parallel. The Iraqi Furies imported to the USA by Ed Jurist and David Tallichet were all sold years ago, and all but one I think were restored to fly - initially with the Centaurus, although most have been changed to American engines since.
The Tempests - I think there were six in total, have sat around, changed hands from time to time, but no-one has completed even one of them.
I think that says something about them, and whilst I wish Tempest Two all the best with their example in the near future, I think it may be the only one to get finished, unless it proves to be something really out of the ordinary!
Bruce
Posts: 1,274
By: T J Johansen - 28th January 2009 at 13:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I seem to remember from an old Flypast article that the Tempest Two group was planning to rebuild one a/c with a Centaurus, and the other with a US engine. This was years ago. What has been holding back this project, availability of engine or lack of funds?
T J
Posts: 894
By: VX927 - 28th January 2009 at 14:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The engine. As I understand it, the airframe is pretty much ready to go, but they are still waiting to get the engine back before they can move forward.
Posts: 174
By: Sage the Owl - 28th January 2009 at 17:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What this airframe needs is someone with the vision & drive of someone like Stephen Grey who can appreciate it for what it is, a historical artifact that needs to be preserved in its true element and not just looked at as a drain on the bank balance or stored until a killing can be made once people realise its true worth.
Easy for me to say I know, but at the end of the day isnt it about preservation for future generations rather than "Spitfire snobbery".
I seem to recall a few years ago (I think it was the old Hunter One collection) abandoned a plan to restore to flight a Hawker Sea Hawk because it wasnt economic, but surely thats not the point, if you love the machine you do whatever it takes regardless of cost. Paul Allens collection is a perfect example of this policy.
Posts: 18,350
By: DazDaMan - 28th January 2009 at 17:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Paul Allen has a ****load of money.
Posts: 10,647
By: pagen01 - 28th January 2009 at 18:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What rot, the fact that more Spitfires were built, everyone knows what a Spitfire is, and their huge following has more to do with the number of Spitfires about. The Hurricane is also merlin powered but you don't see lots of those about.
Without a doubt the sleeve valve Centaurus has proved more troublesome than the more straight forward Merlin, but not to the extent that ift prevents a really worthy project flying with one.
Posts: 2,025
By: stuart gowans - 28th January 2009 at 18:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I beg to differ, the Merlin gained its reputation, not for being the most powerfull, or the best design, but by virtue of the fact that it was capable of full throttle power loading, for longer than all of it's competitors, therefore it was inherently reliable; as it turned out, in 1944 an RM.17SM Merlin, was run for 15 mins at 36lb boost recording 2640hp, and so probably was the most powerfull, measured as a power to weight ratio.