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By: 31st January 2020 at 19:08 Permalink
-Do you have the correct date/aircraft, AA? https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/203884 suggests it might have been G-ADGM on 24 Oct 1936.
Also a brief reference (but not to the crash) here https://www.baesystems.com/cs/Satellite?c=BAEHeritage_C&childpagename=UK%2FBAELayout&cid=1434612495527&d=Touch&pagename=UKWrapper
By: 31st January 2020 at 19:22 Permalink
-I'm pretty confident that I have the correct date, based upon a report which appears in the Hastings & St Leonards Observer of Saturday 24 August 1935 and which refers to the crash landing on the preceding Thursday (which I calculate to be 22 August 1935). Whether I have the correct aeroplane is another matter! As I said, I suspect it to have been G-ADGB, but I'm not certain of that. Hence my enquiry.
The ASN account of the crash of G-ADGM doesn't tally with that about which I'm enquiring. The newspaper report of the latter says that the pilot and the two passengers were uninjured and that the damage to the aeroplane was limited to the propeller and undercarriage. It also says that a breakdown van from a Rye garage was used to tow the Avro from the sands to 'the aerodrome'. I don't think that would have been possible for the burned out G-ADGM!
By: 1st February 2020 at 17:26 Permalink
-I've just discovered that, apparently, the pilot involved in this crash landing was killed a little over a year later when Puss Moth G-ADLP spun in from about 1000', over Ashdown Forest, and crashed near Danehill, Sussex - that's assuming that Bart Tonge and Bartholomew Furze Tonge were one and the same person.
By: 3rd February 2020 at 07:38 Permalink
-Not the most lucky of pilots then :S
By: 3rd February 2020 at 09:28 Permalink
-If you read the report as to how he lost his life, I suspect that you'll tend toward my view that 'luck' didn't come into it.
Whilst I'm grateful to those who have responded to my plea for help, on this and other topics, I fear that the current state of this forum is such that it's becoming increasingly pointless to raise such abstruse enquiries here. There used to be a wealth of knowledge here - both in breadth and depth - but most of it seems to have given up and gone elsewhere since the last upgrade. That is both a shame and a pity.
By: 3rd February 2020 at 10:34 Permalink
-Gloucester Citizen - Friday 23 August 1935 page 7
No Date, but as this daily paper suggest Thursday 22 August 1935
Says pilot was Sgt- Pilot Bart Tonge, RAF Reserve and landed heavily on beach. The passengers included Mr J L Braddock (owner of machine) and a woman
This is Bartholomew Furze Tonge RAF #700252
By: 3rd February 2020 at 10:42 Permalink - Edited 3rd February 2020 at 10:48
-So looks like without doubt based on the Braddock link
British civil aircraft, 1919-1972, Volume 1
Avro 504K Mk.II
G-ADGB J8758, 19.6.35 L J. Braddock and partners, Croydon, Zenith Airways Ltd, Camber Sands, Sussex 6.35; registration cancelled 6.36
By: 3rd February 2020 at 10:48 Permalink
-I suppose it could be
Avro 504K Mk.II
G-ADGC J9689, registered 23.4.35 to L. J. Braddock and partners, Croydon; Zenith Airways Ltd., Camber Sands, Sussex 6.35; registration cancelled 1.36
By: 3rd February 2020 at 10:52 Permalink
-AA I share your dismay that the forum is effectively broken, and have reluctantly abandoned hope that it can be revived.
Despite breezy sentiments that social media is the future, and forums are old hat, I find FB etc to be nearly useless, being only 'of the moment' and then everything slides away , never to be seen again. As a source of reference, for studious contributions , and accumulation of knowledge it it is hopeless.
We had a historic aircraft forum that generally worked well, and now there is nothing even comparable , which is rather sad. Apologies for taking the thread off course.
By: 3rd February 2020 at 11:03 Permalink
-PS
His name definitely
Bartholomew' Furse Tonge (aged 27 or 28), of Wallington, Surrey
His Obit appears in Dundee Evening Telegraph and Post Page 5 Monday 07 September 1936
Says younger son of Mr and Mrs Thomas Tonge of Dundee
Scotlands People has
TONGE
BARTHOLOMEW FUR
M
1907
282/4 1396
St Andrew (Dundee)
By: 3rd February 2020 at 11:17 Permalink
-Published: Monday 07 September 1936
Newspaper: The Scotsman
NARROW ESCAPES RECALLED Mr Tonge had served in the R.A.F. He was unmarried, and lived in West. Avenue, Wallington. Some years ago he ran out of petrol while over London, and put his machine safely in the Thames opposite the Houses of Parliament, then stepped off the sinking machine to a barge. Last year he was Flying at Camber Sands, and engine trouble developed. For a moment or two it looked as if he would land on the crowded beach. but with great presence of mind he swerved the machine, and landed at the edge of the shore. A few months a Tonge had another narrow escape. from the North Country with two passengers, he ran into heavy mist, and to avoid hitting a hillside, put the machine into a tree. He suffered head injuries, but his passengers were unhurt. It is probable that engine trouble developed this time, as Mr Tonge, in such circumstances. favoured lending in a tree to break impact with the ground.
By: 3rd February 2020 at 11:31 Permalink - Edited 3rd February 2020 at 11:38
-XXXX Deleted
By: 3rd February 2020 at 11:43 Permalink
-Thank you, Paul. I do trust that you noted my use of the word 'most' when, earlier this morning, I said that: ' There used to be a wealth of knowledge here - both in breadth and depth - but most of it seems to have given up and gone elsewhere since the last upgrade.'!
I feel that even if one cannot say it with absolute certainty, G-ADGB is by far the strongest candidate for the Camber forced landing. As to G-ADGC, BCAR 1919-99 says that this was not converted (I do not know whether than means not converted from a military 504N or not retro-converted from a 504N to a 504K Mk. II) but that doesn't mean that, in August 1935, it was not operating as a 504N, rather than as a 504K Mk. II.
If I manage it successfully (!), I'm attaching a copy of the Hastings & St Leonards Observer report on the Camber forced landing.
By: 3rd February 2020 at 13:52 Permalink
-As J8758, Avro 504N, had ground accident Duxford 7 Oct,1928, it is possible that it would have been able to be converted with a flat fuselage - Shame that newspaper photos is not lighter - So a serial can be read
By: 3rd February 2020 at 13:57 Permalink
-Hi AA. Avro Aircraft since 1908 has this to say on the 504K Mk IIs -
The Avro 504K Mk. II was shelved but in 1935 four ex R.A.F. Avro S04N airframes, long stored at Croydon, were brought out and converted into joyriding three seaters with 130 h.p. Clerget engines. They were therefore equivalent to the Avro 504K Mk. II of 11 years previously, differing from the prototype only in the type of engine, rounded sides, untapered ailerons, absence of wing tip skids and fuel tankage. The 1935 machines had one 18 gallon tank under the port upper wing root in the manner of the Mongoose powered civil Avro S04N instead of the slim centre section tank of the prototype. They were registered G-ADGB, 'GC, 'GM and 'GN but work on G-ADGC was not completed. The other three endured one season's joyriding at Camber Sands, Sussex, with Zenith Airways, although 'GM and 'GN were nominally owned by Aircraft and Autos Ltd. and Aviation Commerce Ltd. of Croydon respectively. None flew after 1935 except 'GM which was acquired by Brooklands Aviation Ltd. for joyriding at Shoreham. In the wintcr it was employed on school work at Brooklands and was destroyed there in a hangar fire on October 24, 1936.
It sounds like 'GC never flew with Zenith.
By: 3rd February 2020 at 14:08 Permalink
-Almost their - Can see 18 gallon tank
Avro aircraft since 1908 - Page 105
Avro 504K Mk.II In 1924 the Hamble works produced a hybrid trainer known as the Avro 504K Mk.II
and consisting of a flat sided 504K fuselage married to 504N - type undercarriage and mainplanes.
The reasons underlying the creation of this strange variant were twofound, firstly to enable
air forces of the smaller nations to modernise their 504K trainers using Avro-built
conversion kits,or alternatively to provide low price 504N equivalents powered by
cheap surplus 100 hp Gnome Monosoupape rotaries. While there is no record of
conversion taking place overseas, a very similar machine, named the vro Anahuac, was built under licence in the Mexican Air Force workshops at Balbuena, serials round and about 53.
The Avro 504K Mk.II was shelved but in 1935 four ex-RAF Avro 504N airframes, long stored at Croydon, were brought out and converted into joyriding three-seaters with 130 hp Clerget engines. They were
therefore equivalent to the Avro 504K Mk II of 11 years previously differing from
the prototype only in the type of engine, rounded sides, untapered ailerons, absence of
wingtip skids and fuel tankage. The 1935 machines had one 18 gallon tank under
the port upper wing root in the manner of the Mongoose- ...
... They were registered G-ADGB, 'GC, 'GM and 'GN but work on G- ADGC was not completed.
The other three endured one season's joyriding at Camber Sands, Sussex, with Zenith Airways, although 'GM and 'GN were nominally owned by Aircraft and Autos Ltd and Aviation Commerce Ltd of Croydon respectively. None flew after 1935 ...
By: 3rd February 2020 at 14:17 Permalink
-Just to add that the production list goes on to state " C. of A. issued - Nil" for 'GC
By: 3rd February 2020 at 14:24 Permalink
-Thank you, gentlemen. I think that I can consider it improbable that G-ADGC was the aeroplane that made the forced landing at Camber Sands in August 1935.
If there are some who think my reply to cometguymk1 of this morning was rather enigmatic, take a look at http://sussexhistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=892.0.
Posts: 5,927
By: avion ancien - 31st January 2020 at 17:54
Can anyone help me identify the Zenith Airways' joyriding Avro 504 (I suspect that it was a 504K Mk. II, but it could have beeen a 504N) which, following an engine failure, crash landed on the beach at Camber Sands, East Sussex, at lunchtime on 22 August 1935? It was being flown by F/O Bart Tonge at this time. I suspect that it was G-ADGB (an Avro 504K Mk. II, which had been retro-converted from a 504N), which is recorded as being used by Zenith Airways for joyriding at Camber in 1935/36, but there seems to be no record of that aeroplane being involved in an accident at Camber on that date or at all. If anyone can help with any other information, I'll be most grateful to them.