Hawker Tempest II MW763/G-TEMT

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15 years 6 months

Posts: 291

Folks, I am trying to put together a data Sheet for this aircraft which shall be utilised for airshow commentary purposes and therefore, it must be absolutely accurate. I  seek sage advice from the forum on the apparently contradictory data out there or where to find the correct data from prime sources. Being in the Antipodes has its disadvantages  and Dr.Google is not to be 'trusted' in such a case. 

In Putnam's "Hawker Aircraft since 1920" by no less a luminary than  Francis .K.Mason, at Pg438, MW763 is listed as being issued to No.183 Sqn RAF but not shown as being issued to No.54 Sqn. In "Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their Aircraft" by John Rawlings, No.183 Sqn was never equipped with the Tempest II. The unit was disbanded and reformed as No.54 Sqn on 15 November 1945 . No.54 Sqn was equipped with the Tempest II firstly at Chilbolton and then at Odiham later converting to Vampires. Something is amiss here. Does anyone out there know if the aircraft was issued to an RAF squadron and if so which one and for what period? Any details of individual aircraft code? It was later purchased by Hawkers from surplus RAF stocks, refurbished and sold to the Royal Indian Air Force/Indian Air Force with S/N HA586. Presumably it was stored with a Maintenance unit after squadron service (if in fact his did occur). Which unit would that have been and where? When did it arrive in India as this affects "Royal" or simply "Indian" as the Indian flag was unfurled at the "Red Fort" on 15 August 1947.

Any information on its Indian Air Force service would also be greatly appreciated

I would like to ensure that all,the facts on my completed data sheet are completely accurate and would apreciate any assistance that can be provided. It shall certainly look absolutely striking in its representative No.33 Sqn scheme and I am really looking forward to seeing it in person. 

Original post

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12 years 4 months

Posts: 98

I can add the following sold back to Hawkers, Langley 25th May 1948 refurbished and to the RIAF as HA586 first test flight flown from Langley by Eric Stanley "Doc" Morrell 21st June 1949.

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12 years 4 months

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And also the following the Tempests of 54 Squadron were ferried to 20 MU at Aston Down during October 1946.

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12 years 4 months

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HA586 was noted as having been delivered to India via Blackbushe these were ferried in the period 1948-49

(info taken from Blackbushe London's Lost Airport 1942-1960 AJ Aviation)

ironically it appeared back at Blackbushe with Warbirds of Great Britain in the late 1970's after recovery by Doug Arnold and his team.

 

 

Member for

15 years 6 months

Posts: 291

Thanks K4235. That does fill in some gaps. Still uncertain if it was issued  to No.54 Sqn and F.K.Mason had it in the wrong column against No183 Sqn in "Hawker Aircraft" which was never issued with the type prior to disbanding and later reforming as No.54 Sqn. Does anyone out there have access to MW763's "Status Card", (as they are referred to here on Oz by the RAAF) ? It would be very good to know if it had some RAF squadron service prior to departing for India. Would anyone have access to the No.54 Sqn daily diary for the period November 1945 to October 1946 where it may also be mentioned? As indicated in my first post, this is for a data sheet to be used for UK airshow commentary and I pride myself in ensuring that all the 'facts' are correct. If there are gaps then there are gaps but whatever is there must be accurate. 

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12 years 4 months

Posts: 98

The confusion I think with 183 Squadron is that the pilots did some conversion training on the Tempest II during september 1945 converting them from the then squadron Spitfire IX aircraft but the aircraft did not join the squadron.

 

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15 years 6 months

Posts: 291

K4235, thanks again. How do I access the No.54 Sqn diary to ascertain if MW763 was part of its allocation? I am guessing that if as you have indicated, No.183 Sqn used Tempest II for conversion in September 1945, then the redoubtable F.K.Mason may be correct in indicating that she was "with" but not allocated to No.183. Considering he lists ten aircraft against No.183 that must be the source of confusion as you say. If you do not mind, where did the information arise regarding the conversions undertaken at No.183? The units daily diary should indicate which machines were used for the conversions. If I do not have the ability to access the two unit's daily diaries from the Antipodes, does someone in the UK have the ability to undertake that work on my behalf for recompense? Am sending a signal to Sywell but they may not have that data either. All help very gratefully accepted.

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 562

I may have a logbook page or an entry showing that it was flying in Poona as HA586 sometime in 1950. Will have to look it up.  So it was flying with either 4 or 3 Squadron IAF.

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24 years 2 months

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Also note that upto 26 Jan 1950, it would have been part of the "Royal Indian Air Force" - INdia while being independent was still a dominion.  After that date, india went full republic and dropped the "Royal"

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183 Sqn ORB

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8391617

Says 29.9.45 All pilots getting conversion training on to Tempest II aircraft

Aircraft renumbered 54 Sqn 15.11.45

54 Sqn ORB first mention Tempest II 
8.12.45 7 practice flights on Tempest II and 2 Harvard flights by pilots who have not yet flown Tempests

 

So 183 were issued with some Tempest which they continued using when renumbered 54 Sqn

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From 183 and 54 ORBS it is apparent 183 not disbanded just renamed - With same personnel and at same base

54 Sqn were in Australia at time

So technically Mason is correct, the Tempest could have been allocated to 183, (some were being used for training) and 2 months later the whole unit became 54 Sqn 'On Tempests' - I think Rawlings is missing this transitionary period for 183 or only classed fully operational aircraft?

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paulmcmillan, Many thanks for the data and corrections. I can now see how both interpretations were/are correct in that Rawlings probably did classify the Tempests as not being operational and Mason probably extracted the serials from the 183 ORB . It would be great to search those ORB s and to record 763's movements and any comments. Looks like I may have to take a trip to the National Archives this year when I am back in the UK if I cannot sort it electronically. . Possibly the ORB may record the aircraft code as well. Jagan., Thanks also for the data on the squadron use and possible logbook entry. Any information on its Indian service would be really appreciated. I know it sounds like a great deal of effort to go to just for an airshow commentary but I am very 'anal' in ensuring that what I have is correct and my the golden rule is ..."If you do not know....keep silent "!

 

Looking forward to any other help

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Mustang51

I think (looking at ORB's online) you will not find serials of Tempests in 183 ORB (I never looked in detail at 54 Sqn - but based on the compiler of 183 Sqn records moving on to compiling the 54 Sqn records - I would not be too hopeful). My gut feeling is that the info is ONLY on the aircraft movement card @Hendon

I will assume it will say MW763 -> 183 Sqn (and a date) the 'internal transfer' to 54 Sqn in Nov 1945 MAY NOT Be recorded as a separate item (thus "no 54 Sqn service") - Its next record may be to 20 MU Oct 1946

If someone has the Air Britain serials book for MW763 I would be interested to see what it says, as this will be a edited version of what is based on Movement Card

Mason may have just gone through Air Britain serials book and just listed all 183 Sqn Tempests, or he may have looked at the original Movement cards and generated his list from these

Paul

 

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15 years 6 months

Posts: 291

Thanks again Paul. I too would be interested in viewing that Air Britain publication. It is unfortunate that record keeping for both Squadron Diaries (ORB) and and Movement Cards is not all that accurate, is subject to the individual tasked with keeping them up to date, but at the same time is the best available information. For example, I am aware that in the case of some RAAF Mustangs, quite a few of their Status Cards, (Movement Cards), indicate that a reasonable number of machines moved from storage at "A" to "B" allegedly on the same day. This event could not have occurred due to the work required to have them all move at the same time. It is presumed that the entries on their Status cards were merely a clerical invention to ease the 'burden' of the paperwork.. Notwithstanding, those cards are a primary source and are the best available for us now. Doubtless more information shall come to the surface when the aircraft is ready to fly and Flypast/Aeroplane cover that event. Still trying to get to the bottom of it all for my commentary notes !

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Mustang51
 

Air Britain for MV763 says 183/54 then sold 25.5.48 for RIAF the book says HA554? But I have sometime changed it to HA586

i updated Mw764 HA554

BTW a number of “Near” Tempests including MW755 and MW772 to MW774 are marked 183/54 and ME768 is Marked 183/247

 

paul 

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Mustang51 just tied to post image here no dice can you send me an email address 

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Mustang51 Photo sent Paul

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Found the entries - from the logbook of Sqn Ldr I H Latif , later Air Chief.  Extracts kindly provided by KS Nair, author of "The Forgotten Few"

 

All entries for  HA586,  No 4 Sqn, IAF  Poona "The Oorials" 

7 Feb 1950,  Tempest II '586'  60 Degree Dives 1:15 

10 Feb 1950,  586, Dry RP Dives 1:20

21 Feb 1950, Air Ground 20 mm, 1:05

25/2, 60 deg 2 x 250lb  1:00

27/2, 60 deg 2 x 250lb  1:00

28/2, 60 deg 2 x 250lb  Air to Ground 20 mm 1:00

28/2  60 deg 2 x 250lb  Air to Ground 20 mm 1:00

6/March Section Low Flying 1:20

14/April  Harbour Recce 1 :15

5/May Battle Formation and Tail Chase 1:20

24 June  A E Test 1:20

26 June   High Level Battle Formation  1:20

27 June  High Level Battle Formation 1:05

28 June  Range Estimation 1:20

29 June  Range Estimation 1:20

30 June  II Quarter Attacks 1:20 

4 July  (2 Flights 1: 20 each)

5 July  (2 Flights 1: 25 and 1:30  each)

6 July  (1 Flights 1: 20 )   (Last Noted flight for 586 in the logbook) 

 

 

 

 

 

Member for

15 years 6 months

Posts: 291

Marvellous !!!!! This certainly fills out a lot of information. I just joined the Indian AViation Forum on Facebook and posted requesting help with information. Now I need to look up No.4 Squadron RIAF/IAF