Rafale v Typhoon and the F22...

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right so to conclude: since I posed the original question, there has been no useful information come out of any of the sources regarding the 2 euro canards but it seems that Rafale might have impressed the F22 drivers more than they thought it would.

I guess a UAE Rafale order will support the claim that it did well, but Cola's arguement that the SLAM-ER is an excuse not to buy the Rafale could yet be true!:D

Original post

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A UAE buy could mean any number of things. They are close allies of France with quite a few defence ties. It could be a similar situation to Brazil.

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so you mean mixed messages and no clear desire to buy the aircraft then?:D

but seriously, joshing aside, I hope we will get some official clarity on Al Dahfra in the not too distant future. That way everyone can sleep easier.

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That way everyone can sleep easier.

Is it really so serious in your personnal life ? :confused:
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no, don't worry Tmor I shall try my best to put it from my mind.:)

Hopefully the next time we all need to discuss this, things will be a bit less heated (although that seems to happen quite easily on this forum:()

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See what you've done...

MrMalaya??? LOL :p

All joking put aside, buddy, it is much worse elsewhere!
IMO, you simply asked about something that was puzzling you.
In other fora, the intent behind some threads shows
from the beginning unacceptable behavior as per Keypub
rules.

I've come here partly to "meet" someone who was making
too much noise for naught. At the same time, i stopped my
visits elsewhere. When i recently felt the need to go back a
little, it was on account of some troublemaker that, i felt, had
to be put back in his place, quality active members asked me
to be back and active again.
I really like some of them, even those whom i had bugs with.
But the ambient noise is just too much!
Racism and trolling and nonsense, blah/beuark!

I love my country. I like it when it over performs!
But i allow others to feel the same about theirs.

Tell me about your stuff and i'll tell you about mine.
Hopefully, we'll both learn!
:)

Tay.

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http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2010/02/27/170326-le-dernier-post-de-johann

Capitaine Romain, while still denying the BVR encounters between F-22 and Rafale, gives an explanation about what A&C claimed about such engagements.

He says that usually, while he's heading to a training area, or leaving it, with his Rafale, he trains at virtually shooting missiles at other military aircraft passing by. Thus, he acknowledge that as he would have done, F-22 might have secretly engaged Rafale out of the training area, without RoE, at moments when Rafale wouldn't even expect any threat.

This would explain why Rafale had their radars turned "on" during those even more unfair combats.

But IMHO, the really interesting part of what Capitaine Romain wrote is how he secretly engage transiting aircraft : actually, Rafale CAN shoot passively at an other fighter provided the latter has his radar turned on.

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Question from a guy on the capitain Romain's blog :

Hello Captain,

This, I believe, will answer all questions
exercise. The other course within the discretion of the own
military operations. The Rafale neutralizes the F-22 (without the kill) in
combat for 5 out of 6, he lost once. And it is shot, like all
the other, beyond visual range. What is the background logic.


His answer :

This leads me to make these few details ... :-)

1. The dog-fight is an exercise in 'random': 'the F22 did not
prove to be above the rafale "... could also be said as: "the
rafale is the same level as the Raptor in dogfight. " It is my
professional opinion. To say this, I rely on the fact
during ATLC, a UAE Mirage 2000-9, which was piloted by a french pilot
and although it is a plane much less efficient than the
Rafale, successfully pass a gun F22 shot during a fight
spirals ... The dog-fight is an exercise in 'random' as the Rafale and the
Raptor is clearly of equal capability in this area.

2. When I make a transit to my area of training or when
I returned from my Rafale mission, I shall often use this time to
practice shooting dummy missile on other military aircraft, that are
also in transit. Among the possibilities offered by the weapon system of the rafale, there is that which involves firing a missile into an aircraft
enlightens his radar while mine remains silent ... There was never
a confrontation Beyond Visual Range between Rafale and F22. It is
however certain that the Raptor pilots as Rafale pilots , have tried to make such shots at
ATLC during transit phases.

http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2010/02/27/170326-le-dernier-post-de-johann

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Here is Eurofighter's view of the events in the UAE. The following text is a copy paste from the new official "Eurofighter World" magazine.

WAR OF WORDS: RAFALE VS TYPHOON
 After the Dubai Air Shows on the web
circulated a series of unofficial reports about
exercises held in the UAE with both Rafales
and Typhoons. The fact that these reports
are unofficial could be a sign of our French
competitor frustration in not having signed
the much anticipated contract with UAE or
possibly even to fulfil a basic need to develop
positive stories about the currently unexported
fighter.
The unofficial reports were circulated
using French Air Force Rafale pilots who
used their blogs to say that Rafale won 4 vs
1 engagements with RAF Typhoons during
the exercises in UAE. Propaganda is a science,
but in this specific case the stories
about the Rafale vs Typhoon are unjustified
and an unfair representations of reality because
in the exercise sorties Typhoons and
Rafales worked together on the same team!
There were red Typhoon/Rafale combos
and blue Typhoon/Rafale combos which
took part in the exercise. On the CT (Continuation
Training) sorties both Typhoon and
Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up
sorties for their junior pilots and this is in
fact the subject and source of the unofficial
reports. To be quoting results from this
training does not give a true reflection of
aircraft superiority not to mention the fact
that similar results against the Rafale and
in Typhoons favour also occurred in this
training too, thus dissolving the basis on
which these unofficial reports are based.
Throughout the exercise Typhoon was
always carrying a greater payload than
Rafale, Typhoon always came into the fight
above Rafale and Typhoon take off performance
was always more stunning than
Rafale - all fully as expected.

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Here is Eurofighter's view of the events in the UAE. The following text is a copy paste from the new official "Eurofighter World" magazine.

There is too many "unofficial" in that text to take it seriously .....

Anyway, I'm a bit sad to learn that our pilots are so stupid that they believe they are fighting against Typhoon while the ennemy are a bunch of F-16 a bit far away.

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as they say:

"Propaganda is a science" obvously the one they work hard to master...

they continue to talk about unofficial claims... yet, you can hardly make it more official than a press conference organisted by the ministry...

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The following text is a copy paste from the new official "Eurofighter World" magazine.
That must be one of the weakest rebuttal I've ever seen.

Even funnier, the last part of the article is a cut and paste from anonymous comments made on French blogs several months ago:

"The stories about the Rafale vs Typhoon are unjustified and unfair representations.

In the exercise sories Typhoons and Rafales worked together on the same team! There were red Ty/Raf combos and blue Ty/Raf combos.

On the CT (continuation training) sorties both Typhoon and Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up sorties for their junior pilots and yes- mistakes were made on both sides where results as quoted occured (both for and against Rafale) - to quote training results is unfair and as expected "very French"!!

Typhoon was always carrying more than Rafale, Typhoon always came into the fight above Rafale and Typhoon performance take off was always more stunning than Rafale - all as expected."

found on http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/12/carton-plein-pour-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html?cid=6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b#comment-6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b

Copyright infringement anyone?

Profile picture for user Danell

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Very weak Eurofighter answer...

The unofficial reports were circulated
using French Air Force Rafale pilots who
used their blogs to say that Rafale won 4 vs
1 engagements with RAF Typhoons during
the exercises in UAE

No, only one pilot called Capitaine Romain .. at least , it seems Eurofighter believes he's a Rafale pilot for real ;)

In fact ,these reports were officially released by the 1/7 Provence squadron leader at a french MOD press conference:
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/votre_espace/journalistes/points_presse/point_presse_du_ministere_de_la_defense_du_17_decembre_2009
http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defense.gouv.fr%2Fdefense%2Fvotre_espace%2Fjournalistes%2Fpoints_presse%2Fpoint_presse_du_ministere_de_la_defense_du_17_decembre_2009&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
And then reported by the most famous specialized french journalists like Jean Marc Tanguy (Raid magazine) , Jean Guisnel (Le Point) or Jean dominique Merchet (Libération) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Dominique_Merchet

These reports were also officially endorsed by Charles Edelstenne in Dassault magazine number 144:

[...] Just last month, an international confrontation took place in the Emirate which has demonstrated the superiority of our aircraft confronted with RAF Typhoon. [...]

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/3051/dassaultmagazinen144hiv.jpg

Btw it wasn't 4-1 but 4-0 + 4-1...

and so on ...

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That must be one of the weakest rebuttal I've ever seen.

Even funnier, the last part of the article is a cut and paste from anonymous comments made on French blogs several months ago:

"The stories about the Rafale vs Typhoon are unjustified and unfair representations.

In the exercise sories Typhoons and Rafales worked together on the same team! There were red Ty/Raf combos and blue Ty/Raf combos.

On the CT (continuation training) sorties both Typhoon and Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up sorties for their junior pilots and yes- mistakes were made on both sides where results as quoted occured (both for and against Rafale) - to quote training results is unfair and as expected "very French"!!

Typhoon was always carrying more than Rafale, Typhoon always came into the fight above Rafale and Typhoon performance take off was always more stunning than Rafale - all as expected."

found on http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/12/carton-plein-pour-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html?cid=6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b#comment-6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b

Copyright infringement anyone?

lol

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interesting but we are just back to the position of a commercial source against a government source with conflicting commercial intererests.

It is a counter arguement though and it seems facile to just poo poo it, if that is the official Eurofighter view.

They assert that their aircraft is superior in several areas, and will no-doubt have to prove such assertions to potential customers....

Otherwise, all Eurofighter have is a product which they say is fantastic but no-one would buy?

?

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interesting but we are just back to the position of a commercial source against a government source with conflicting commercial intererests.

It is a counter arguement though and it seems facile to just poo poo it, if that is the official Eurofighter view.

They assert that their aircraft is superior in several areas, and will no-doubt have to prove such assertions to potential customers....

Otherwise, all Eurofighter have is a product which they say is fantastic but no-one would buy?

?

Fortunately sales numbers are a better indicator than unofficial sources.

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Well, finally it sounds more like a garbled Jon lake/Marcus Messala article in a magazine called Eurofighter world than something official ;)

have a look:

Rédigé par: Marcus Messalla

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/12/carton-plein-pour-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html?cid=6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b#comment-6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b
Exclusive online report from Jon Lake and Marcus Messalla

http://www.combataircraft.net/reports/rafale.php
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"Fortunately sales numbers are a better indicator than unofficial sources."

cheap shot i know, but it remains an effective point until the UAE are so reassured by Rafale's world dominance that they place an order with Dassault.

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Fortunately sales numbers are a better indicator than unofficial sources.

it's not that simple, the Mig29 was sold in much bigger numbers than the mirage 2000, yet, is it so much better aircraft?

Eurofighter was bought by countries who are part of its development (contractually, they had to buy it), and besides them, who else (talking about "honest" sales with no bribes and such things)?

The mig 21 was produced (and, obviously sold) in higher numbers than any other supersonic jet (little under 11500 aircraft).. was it so much better than its contemporarires, like the F-4 Phantom II or the Mirage III?

Numbers can be spun to claim anything one wants.. but hardly can prove anything precise about the aircraft performance

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so the only way Eurofighter could possibly win a contest is to bribe its way to victory?

I still don't think any of us are any clearer on what happened in Al Dahfra i think i would say that an aircraft is often measured by commercial success (which in turn is linked to its capability, unless you are a potential Typhoon customer in which case you dont care about that and only look to line your own pockets...?).

Now that we are out of the Cold war (re Mig21 and Phantom) i think we have to take commercial success seriously.

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no, what I mean that, if you look at eurofighter export markets, be it in austria or with the saudis, things weren't exactly "clear"... (charges in austria and justice "advised" not to pursue investigations by the british government...)

for the rest, the commercial succes in military aircraft still has much more to do with politics than with the real quality of this or taht particular aircraft...