By: TooCool_12f
- 3rd March 2010 at 17:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
can't speak for anyone, but as far as I'm concerned, a statement by someone "not anonymous" who was there and stating clearly what happened would be a good start...
actually, if there had been a press conference and it was an RAF officer saying "we did "that" against the rafales", and france not communicating about it, except maybe some vague allegations by dassault, I'd simply consider it true and say: "ok, well done gentlemen"
By: TMor
- 3rd March 2010 at 18:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, Eurofighter wrote that the source about "Rafale vs Typhoon" is an unofficial pilot blog.
Do they believe so, or are they trying to make people believe it's the case ?
Are they voluntarily mixing the ATLC exercise with something which happened aside ?
out of curiosity what would it take for the Rafale fanbase to chance its view (even slightly) of what Rafale did or didn't do in the UAE?
What fanbase ?
If ever i'm seen as a member of this fanbase, then here's my answer : what's the official opinion of the RAF about the Lt Colonel Grandclaudon's claims ? Let the RAF put one of his pilot in front of journalists.
By: Kovy
- 3rd March 2010 at 20:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here is Eurofighter's view of the events in the UAE. The following text is a copy paste from the new official "Eurofighter World" magazine.
I hope this is not the article promised by Jon Lake. If so, I would be highly disappointed.
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 3rd March 2010 at 21:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
point taken...
out of curiosity what would it take for the Rafale fanbase to chance its view (even slightly) of what Rafale did or didn't do in the UAE?
Something written by someone else than jon lake maybe?
The best way would be an official statement from eurofighter gmbh or the RAF.
But we aren't going to see that... only "various sources" (lake, messala...) are going to repeat the same rebuttal in any place that seem semi official, and as many times as possible to try to make it look true.
By: arthuro
- 3rd March 2010 at 22:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Something written by someone else than jon lake maybe?
True...When you take some distance and think about all the bad press about the rafale you soon realize that Jon Lake is the common denominator.
The copy past from the french blog post in the Eurofighter journal is quite funny and ridiculous at the same time. And Again you find the trace of JL thanks to this "mistake".
By: TMor
- 4th March 2010 at 09:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is one thing i'm pretty sure of, now, it's that Eurofighter communication departement read this forum, and probably only fora when they are looking for information about Rafale.
The problem is that they skip French's messages, and thus, they get a totally distorded picture of the situation (they believe the source is a pilot's blog).
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 4th March 2010 at 09:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or they know, but rather avoid the fact that the source was also an official press conference from the armée de l'air; After all does the average reader know it?
By: Danell
- 4th March 2010 at 10:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is one thing i'm pretty sure of, now, it's that Eurofighter communication departement read this forum, and probably only fora when they are looking for information about Rafale.
The problem is that they skip French's messages, and thus, they get a totally distorded picture of the situation (they believe the source is a pilot's blog).
By: mrmalaya
- 4th March 2010 at 10:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
just to be clear, when i said fanbase i meant "people who are followers of the programme, and support its success".
I realised later that "fan" for some bizarre reason is a rude word on forums like this....
anyway, i think we can assume the article published by Eurofighter which Scorpion82 posted is their official view and therefore representative of what they would tell prospective customers (an action which would be to the detriment of the programme if they couldn't back up their assertions surely?).
having said that, the rest of the magazine is essentially press realease material, some of which is totally one sided because its designed to push their product.
I really think you guys have got to drop the whole paranoid conspiracy theory thing about Jon Lake and Jackonicko. It undermines your arguement in my view...
By: Danell
- 4th March 2010 at 10:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or they know, but rather avoid the fact that the source was also an official press conference from the armée de l'air; After all does the average reader know it?
Nic
I think it would be dangerous , who read such magazines? a crowd of passionates and probably some potential customers too.
That's only bad job from my point of view, even the polemic tone of the article doesn't sound very professional.
By: c-seven
- 4th March 2010 at 12:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is one thing i'm pretty sure of, now, it's that Eurofighter communication departement read this forum, and probably only fora when they are looking for information about Rafale.
The arguments and counter-arguments are tested on the internet.
It's a good "flight simulator" or more preciselly a "commercial arguments simulator".
If some commercial arguments fall flat, it's not a big deal here. It allows to test the comunication before going to the main media.
The only thing I can say at this point is that the French "amateurs" do better than the Eurofighter "professionals" IMO ;)
(That's why I've said several times that Dassault should pay a free ride on a Rafale B one day to the good French posters here and elsewhere ... Personal message to the Dassault PR who read us: for me Istres better than Mont de Marsan please: it's more convenient to get there :D)
A lot of journalos who know nothing use the Internet to make their opinion too. So the point of view of the internet has some importance enven though none of us will ever buy a fighter. And actually we often hear about noticable points before the main media.
By: HAWX ace
- 4th March 2010 at 12:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
FWIW, I too believe the recent eurofighter explanation is pure, high grade BS.
so the only way Eurofighter could possibly win a contest is to bribe its way to victory?
Of course not, don't be silly! It can also win through politic extortion based on debts and other obligations... ;)
no, what I mean that, if you look at eurofighter export markets, be it in austria or with the saudis, things weren't exactly "clear"... (charges in austria and justice "advised" not to pursue investigations by the british government...)
Quite a point, still, finding a contest that even approaches the notion of "clear" is not exactly the easiest task, don't you think?
By: Taygibay
- 4th March 2010 at 14:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Entirely agreed, Cola!
But as long as the dead are rising, let's give it a push
correlating your surprise ( and mine ) as stated in that
final sentence of your post with its opening quote :
Gee, i hope no one i "know" took nearly two months
to pen that!
Seriously, Eurofighter had to say something at some
point but doing so so poorly revived the bickering.
Not valuable enough a piece of reporting to justify it,
i'd tend to think; let's get back to sleep, LOL.
By: TooCool_12f
- 4th March 2010 at 15:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Quite a point, still, finding a contest that even approaches the notion of "clear" is not exactly the easiest task, don't you think?
of course, in such deals it's always about politics anyway, so "clear" isn't the first adjective that comes to mind when thinking about it... ;)
I was just responding to a post saying that "sold numbers prove the aircraft quality", which would, under the context, imply that the typhoon, since bought (or ordered in bigger numbers than the rafale) was obviously better... My remark, therefore, was just considering the way the typhoon got its exports, and it didn't seem so directly related to the inherent quality of the aircraft
Posts: 4,619
By: mrmalaya - 3rd March 2010 at 16:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
point taken...
out of curiosity what would it take for the Rafale fanbase to chance its view (even slightly) of what Rafale did or didn't do in the UAE?
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 3rd March 2010 at 17:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
can't speak for anyone, but as far as I'm concerned, a statement by someone "not anonymous" who was there and stating clearly what happened would be a good start...
actually, if there had been a press conference and it was an RAF officer saying "we did "that" against the rafales", and france not communicating about it, except maybe some vague allegations by dassault, I'd simply consider it true and say: "ok, well done gentlemen"
it's about that simple
Posts: 1,498
By: TMor - 3rd March 2010 at 18:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So, Eurofighter wrote that the source about "Rafale vs Typhoon" is an unofficial pilot blog.
Do they believe so, or are they trying to make people believe it's the case ?
Are they voluntarily mixing the ATLC exercise with something which happened aside ?
What fanbase ?
If ever i'm seen as a member of this fanbase, then here's my answer : what's the official opinion of the RAF about the Lt Colonel Grandclaudon's claims ? Let the RAF put one of his pilot in front of journalists.
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 3rd March 2010 at 18:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I guess those who appear to like the rafale ;)
Posts: 1,842
By: glitter - 3rd March 2010 at 18:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, to be consistent with our position, let's say that an official statement from RAF pilots would do the trick.
Just a problem, in such a case, we would be sure that one of the two side is an obvious liar without knowing which one ... :(
Posts: 1,403
By: Kovy - 3rd March 2010 at 20:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I hope this is not the article promised by Jon Lake. If so, I would be highly disappointed.
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 3rd March 2010 at 21:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Something written by someone else than jon lake maybe?
The best way would be an official statement from eurofighter gmbh or the RAF.
But we aren't going to see that... only "various sources" (lake, messala...) are going to repeat the same rebuttal in any place that seem semi official, and as many times as possible to try to make it look true.
Nic
Posts: 1,447
By: arthuro - 3rd March 2010 at 22:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
True...When you take some distance and think about all the bad press about the rafale you soon realize that Jon Lake is the common denominator.
The copy past from the french blog post in the Eurofighter journal is quite funny and ridiculous at the same time. And Again you find the trace of JL thanks to this "mistake".
Posts: 1,403
By: Kovy - 3rd March 2010 at 22:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I especially like the part where the guy who wrote the Eurofighter Gmbh article lectures the french air force about the science of propaganda :D
He definitely has a great sense of humor :p
it also makes me wonder who is the best porkies teller :dev2:
Posts: 2,357
By: Jackonicko - 3rd March 2010 at 23:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good use of the word 'porkies', Kovy! Well done.
For full cockney effect you could have said:
"I reckon Eurofighter are 'avin' a bleedin' Giraffe, telling Porkies like that!"
(I believe that EF GmbH are having a laugh (joking), telling tall stories like that).
Posts: 1,498
By: TMor - 4th March 2010 at 09:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is one thing i'm pretty sure of, now, it's that Eurofighter communication departement read this forum, and probably only fora when they are looking for information about Rafale.
The problem is that they skip French's messages, and thus, they get a totally distorded picture of the situation (they believe the source is a pilot's blog).
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 4th March 2010 at 09:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or they know, but rather avoid the fact that the source was also an official press conference from the armée de l'air; After all does the average reader know it?
Nic
Posts: 200
By: Danell - 4th March 2010 at 10:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it's just a bad job from a frustrated journalist(?)/propagandist called Marcus Messala (...). Which explains the copy/paste from the comment on Secret-Defense. http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/12/carton-plein-pour-le-rafale-lors-dexercices-aux-emirats.html?cid=6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b#comment-6a00e008d663eb88340120a76c92c2970b
In any case : amateurishness
Posts: 4,619
By: mrmalaya - 4th March 2010 at 10:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
just to be clear, when i said fanbase i meant "people who are followers of the programme, and support its success".
I realised later that "fan" for some bizarre reason is a rude word on forums like this....
anyway, i think we can assume the article published by Eurofighter which Scorpion82 posted is their official view and therefore representative of what they would tell prospective customers (an action which would be to the detriment of the programme if they couldn't back up their assertions surely?).
having said that, the rest of the magazine is essentially press realease material, some of which is totally one sided because its designed to push their product.
I really think you guys have got to drop the whole paranoid conspiracy theory thing about Jon Lake and Jackonicko. It undermines your arguement in my view...
Posts: 200
By: Danell - 4th March 2010 at 10:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it would be dangerous , who read such magazines? a crowd of passionates and probably some potential customers too.
That's only bad job from my point of view, even the polemic tone of the article doesn't sound very professional.
Posts: 371
By: c-seven - 4th March 2010 at 12:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The arguments and counter-arguments are tested on the internet.
It's a good "flight simulator" or more preciselly a "commercial arguments simulator".
If some commercial arguments fall flat, it's not a big deal here. It allows to test the comunication before going to the main media.
The only thing I can say at this point is that the French "amateurs" do better than the Eurofighter "professionals" IMO ;)
(That's why I've said several times that Dassault should pay a free ride on a Rafale B one day to the good French posters here and elsewhere ... Personal message to the Dassault PR who read us: for me Istres better than Mont de Marsan please: it's more convenient to get there :D)
A lot of journalos who know nothing use the Internet to make their opinion too. So the point of view of the internet has some importance enven though none of us will ever buy a fighter. And actually we often hear about noticable points before the main media.
Posts: 694
By: HAWX ace - 4th March 2010 at 12:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
FWIW, I too believe the recent eurofighter explanation is pure, high grade BS.
Of course not, don't be silly! It can also win through politic extortion based on debts and other obligations... ;)
Quite a point, still, finding a contest that even approaches the notion of "clear" is not exactly the easiest task, don't you think?
Posts: 1,206
By: Cola1973 - 4th March 2010 at 13:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, but then there's nothing left. :D
I'm surprised to see this topic still going on...
Posts: 662
By: Taygibay - 4th March 2010 at 14:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Entirely agreed, Cola!
But as long as the dead are rising, let's give it a push
correlating your surprise ( and mine ) as stated in that
final sentence of your post with its opening quote :
Gee, i hope no one i "know" took nearly two months
to pen that!
Seriously, Eurofighter had to say something at some
point but doing so so poorly revived the bickering.
Not valuable enough a piece of reporting to justify it,
i'd tend to think; let's get back to sleep, LOL.
Good day all.
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 4th March 2010 at 15:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
of course, in such deals it's always about politics anyway, so "clear" isn't the first adjective that comes to mind when thinking about it... ;)
I was just responding to a post saying that "sold numbers prove the aircraft quality", which would, under the context, imply that the typhoon, since bought (or ordered in bigger numbers than the rafale) was obviously better... My remark, therefore, was just considering the way the typhoon got its exports, and it didn't seem so directly related to the inherent quality of the aircraft