Rafale v Typhoon and the F22...

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Member for

17 years

Posts: 4,042

yes thats how i read it

Of course then that whole nothing ever goes as planned factor comes into play.

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 1,741

i'll wait till he tells me how this is achieved in the first place before allowing for other factors

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 662

Good day all.

As promised earlier, i'm back with information.

Mass 112 kg
Length 3.10 m
Diameter 0.16 m
Range
from < 500 m to > 60 km
Missile guidance
strap-down inertial reference unit
active RF monopulse doppler seeker
passive imaging IR seeker
reardata-link receiver
lock-on after launch or lock-on before launch
Offensive section
RF proximity fuze
impact fuze
focused splinters
high explosive warhead
Aerodynamics
long chord wings
Control
tail control surfaces
thrust vector control (TVC)

That is out of this link that I have posted earlier :
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/ref/scripts/EN_MICA_124.html

so the range is 60kms!

Now, here is the head movement aspect of acquisition
by the pilot of a target which i kided about earlier :

The radar is backed up by optical and passive electronic-detection systems. Located immediately behind the radar is the front-sector optronic (FSO) system, produced by Thales. The FSO has two optical heads. On the right is a long-range infrared search and track (IRST), operating in the long-wave IR band, which detects point IR sources over a wide field of view. On the left is a combat-identification sensor, which combines an imaging sensor (daylight video on the prototype and mid-wave IR in production aircraft) and a laser rangefinder. It can track a single target in the front sector and display an enlarged image in the cockpit, and is normally aimed automatically at the most threatening target. If the rules of engagement require visual identification, the Rafale pilot can declare a target as hostile well outside normal visual range.

Information from the Spectra EW suite, the radar, and the OSF are brought together through modular mission computers and presented to the pilot and back-seater via a modern cockpit with 160 square inches of active display space - a close second to the 180 square inches on the larger F-22 and rather more than the Typhoon.

The Rafale cockpit hardware includes a number of unusual or unique features. The large central screen, which normally hosts the main tactical-situation display, is collimated at infinity. The physical optics of the "head-level display" (HLD) are designed so that the top of the HLD is directly below the head-up display (HUD). (On most other fighters, there is a small up-front control panel under the HUD and above the main central display.) Imagery from the identification sensor can be displayed on a window in the HLD. This system allows the pilot to switch from the short-term HUD view to the larger tactical picture without refocusing his eyes or dropping his gaze below the head-up display (HUD).

That is straight out of here :
http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/rafale.htm

This is the heading of Jane's piece about OSF :
Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF) for the Rafale aircraft (France), Airborne electro optic (EO) systems

Type
Airborne Electro Optic (EO) Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRSTS).

Description
Thales Optronics and SAGEM SA are co-operating for the development and manufacture of the TV and Infra-Red Search and Track System (IRSTS) for the Dassault Aviation Rafale ACT and ACM.The OSF (Optronique Secteur Frontal) is designed to aid covert missions, firing under jamming, visual identification and damage assessment in air-to-air, air-to-ground and air-to-sea operations and to provide navigation/piloting assistance. Key features include long-range Infra-Red (IR) passive detection, very low false alarm rates, high-definition CCD imagery, an eye-safe laser range-finder and very large Field of Regard (FoR), which may be supplemented by employing the seeker heads of Mica missiles fitted to the wingtip stations. The utilisation of separate optical assemblies for the IR and TV sensors facilitates multiple simultaneous search/identification/telemetry operation.The system is fully integrated with RBE2 radar and weapons system, with target hand-off from radar to OSF facilitating passive approach and engagement. Future improvements to the OSF includes enhancing the video system to a day/night camera.

as seen here of course :
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Avionics/Optronique-Secteur-Frontal-OSF-for-the-Rafale-aircraft-France.html

Finally, the resulting "useless" HMCS already
exists and has been tried :
TopSight (France)

Rather than designing an HMD around an existing helmet shell, Thales Avionics (Vélizy-Villacoublay, France),
(at the time, Sextant Avionique) teamed with Intertechnique to design a new helmet system integrating the vision
system with the oxygen positive pressure breathing and full nuclear, biological, and chemical (NBC) protection.
The futuristic appearance of these helmets results from the use of a flush external face guard, contoured such as
not to obstruct the pilot's FOV yet to fully cover the oxygen mask.
The TopSight (previously known as Opsis) (Figure 3-20), was evaluated originally on the Mirage 2000 fighter
and subsequently has been used on both the Mirage and the next-generation multirole Rafale fighters. The
TopSight is a day-only helmet, configured for air-to-air missions.
The TopSight uses a modular approach. The headgear includes two line-replaceable units: a) the basic helmet,
with a custom-fitted form liner and b) a removable Day Display Module, that projects symbology on the pilot's
visor for target acquisition and designation; depending on the mission, this module can be replaced by a Night
Vision Module (ejection-compatible), or a Double Visor Module (for conventional helmet use).
Designed primarily for target acquisition and designation in support of the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, the air-to-
air version is a monocular visor projection display with 20° FOV and 60- mm eye relief. It uses a 0.5-inch
diameter CRT in stroke-only symbology, generated from target and aircraft parameters. The fully integrated
system, including the oxygen mask, has a head-supported weight of 1.45 kg (3.2 lbs).

TopNight

The TopNight (Figure 3-20) is a TopSight helmet configured for air-to-ground and night mission for the Rafale
fighter. It adds to the TopSight an image-intensified charge-coupled device (I2CCD) camera and binocular display
capability. It also adds FLIR image capability from an aircraft sensor or a night-vision image intensified image
from the helmet-mounted CCD. The pilot can switch between the external FLIR and I2CCD sensors. There is also
the option of presenting an image received from an outside video source.
The TopNight has a binocular display with a 40- x 30-degree FOV and 60-mm eye relief. It uses two 1⁄2-inch
diameter CRTs. Aircraft and targeting data are displayed both in stroke (symbology) and raster video imagery
(IR, image-intensified tubes [I2T] and television [TV]). The fully integrated assembly, including the oxygen mask
and the I2T, has a head-supported weight of 1.8 kg (4 lbs).

which comes from this source :
http://www.usaarl.army.mil/new/publications/HMD_Book09/files/Section%209%20-%20Chapter%203%20Introduction%20to%20Helmet-Mounted%20Displays.pdf

Sorry for the coping/pasting, i am in a wee bit of a hurry,
read you later.

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 1,741

the mica rf does have a range of 50-60k
passive mica ir doesnt by a long way

how does the osf provide passive bvr accurate targeting data and you can scratch the ir from the osf, even the fr say its obsolete

yes thales has 2 hms, we have brought one of them, what has that got to do with showing it being tested/fitted on a rafale

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 2,248

the mica rf does have a range of 50-60k
passive mica ir doesnt by a long way

Hhmm.. So MBDA are telling some really big porkies then...or did you just not bother to read the weblink :rolleyes:;)

"An additional advantage lies in the possibility of launching MICA with its seeker (namely IR) either locked-on to the target or not, while still featuring all BVR qualities."

"MICA missile in BVR mode introduces a new way of waging air combat by offering multi-target capability at extended ranges with the two interoperable versions (RF or IR)."

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/ref/scripts/EN_MICA_124.html

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14 years 5 months

Posts: 1,741

i take it you added (namely IR)
do you really need me to explain those 2 quotes and how radar would be used
your claim is 50-60k passive ir and i'm still waiting for you and arthur to show me how

Member for

14 years 6 months

Posts: 91

the mica rf does have a range of 50-60k
passive mica ir doesnt by a long way

The ir mica have the same range, the problem was that the IR version doesn't have lock after launch in the old version of the F3 standard (F3-1 ?). So the operational range was limited. The actual version of the standard F3 (F3-2 ?) have this function so the mica-ir can use all it range.

@+, Arka

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14 years 5 months

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the ir has had loal for a long time afaik
not passivly it doesnt have the same range and lets hope the battle space isnt too cluttered with friendlies

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16 years 2 months

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i take it you added (namely IR)
do you really need me to explain those 2 quotes and how radar would be used
your claim is 50-60k passive ir and i'm still waiting for you and arthur to show me how

Adding anything to a quote is called lying. Do you do that on a regular basis? I don't.

Go read the website. You obviously haven't. Until you do your opinion is even more worthless than it generally is :p ;).

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 567

the mica rf does have a range of 50-60k
passive mica ir doesnt by a long way

how does the osf provide passive bvr accurate targeting data and you can scratch the ir from the osf, even the fr say its obsolete

yes thales has 2 hms, we have brought one of them, what has that got to do with showing it being tested/fitted on a rafale

The OSF has a range of around 45 km or something like that. SPECTRA has a significantly longer range, as well as sophisticated emitter identification/locating/tracking modes, I think. If an object is detected by SPECTRA, OSF can be cued to get an image of the target. Between SPECTRA and OSF reasonably accurate data for both azimuth and elevation as well as target identification (via SPECTRA's threat library) can be found. From these, range can be found by means of either the laser range finder or entirely passively via creative use of nonlinear kalman filters and special maneuvering patterns. Or if there is a datalink present, one doesn't even need to use special maneuvers. Speed can likely be found via other tricks. From these a firing solution can be obtained. An IR Mica can be fired off based on the given firing solution and then track passively via IR on its own once it is in range (the initial firing solution from the Rafale's sensors probably handles this). Additionally the missile may be able to be guided via the Rafale's passive sensors and one-way datalink, but I am not sure about this.

I'm guessing this is how it works. I'm sure a lot of info on the Rafale's sensors is classified. I know the EF uses the nonlinear kalman filter + maneuvering/datalink trick to get passive ranging info and I think it is known in the industry as a whole, though it is a bit of an "art". I'm sure Thales has the expertise to do it, but I'm just guessing in the case of the Rafale as to the exact method.

Either way it is entirely possible to passively detect/track and fire on a target well outside of BVR and this is a capability possessed by the Rafale, Eurofighter, and F-22, and perhaps some other aircraft as well.

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14 years 5 months

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snafu352
i couldnt find a 50-60k ir passive shot, can you point it out for me
you dont think they mean radar guided loal, do you

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 1,741

The OSF has a range of around 45 km or something like that. SPECTRA has a significantly longer range, as well as sophisticated emitter identification/locating/tracking modes, I think. If an object is detected by SPECTRA, OSF can be cued to get an image of the target. Between SPECTRA and OSF reasonably accurate data for both azimuth and elevation as well as target identification (via SPECTRA's threat library) can be found. From these, range can be found by means of either the laser range finder or entirely passively via creative use of nonlinear kalman filters and special maneuvering patterns. Or if there is a datalink present, one doesn't even need to use special maneuvers. Speed can likely be found via other tricks. From these a firing solution can be obtained. An IR Mica can be fired off based on the given firing solution and then track passively via IR on its own once it is in range (the initial firing solution from the Rafale's sensors probably handles this). Additionally the missile may be able to be guided via the Rafale's passive sensors and one-way datalink, but I am not sure about this.

I'm guessing this is how it works. I'm sure a lot of info on the Rafale's sensors is classified. I know the EF uses the nonlinear kalman filter + maneuvering/datalink trick to get passive ranging info and I think it is known in the industry as a whole, though it is a bit of an "art". I'm sure Thales has the expertise to do it, but I'm just guessing in the case of the Rafale as to the exact method.

Either way it is entirely possible to passively detect/track and fire on a target well outside of BVR and this is a capability possessed by the Rafale, Eurofighter, and F-22, and perhaps some other aircraft as well.

i think the tv camera osf has a much longer range, the laser designator is the limiting factor
i think the radar would provide the targeting bvr info to bring it in range for the ir to take over
i found it easier to split the spectra/osf into its different functions to try to get an understanding of how it works

link 16 by off-board data could do it too

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14 years

Posts: 130

your claim is 50-60k passive ir and i'm still waiting for you and arthur to show me how

Both types of MICA missile (IR and radar) have an inertial guidance system and a Liaison Avion Missile one-way datalink. The latter receives updates transmitted either via a datalink in the aircraft’s vertical fin (on the Mirage 2000-5 and later) or incorporated the antenna of the RBE-2 antenna array (on Rafale). So, for longer-ranged shots, it’s part of the way using inertial navigation with in-flight updates if needed, then a changeover to the IR or RF seeker.

But I didn't know that older Rafales lack this feature.

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14 years 5 months

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i agree with you and in my post above yours i said about radar and link 16 by off-board data could do it too

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16 years 2 months

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snafu352
i couldnt find a 50-60k ir passive shot, can you point it out for me
you dont think they mean radar guided loal, do you

Read the website. The quotes from it are clear. When talking of bvr they are talking both em and ir.
The missile is in service, it would be slightly strange to make inaccurate claims for an in-service product would it not? Of course you are a paid up member of the LM fanclub so inaccurate claims may be the only thing you are aware of...;)
Joking aside the Adla have published documents that make reference to new tactics and roe that have been developed in order to make use of the bvr capabilities of the ir mica.
Speaking to pilots of 01.002 they also have mentioned the bvr capabilites the ir mica gives them. Note that this is on the 2000-5 not the Rafale, which has rather better avionics than the -5.

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16 years 2 months

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i agree with you and in my post above yours i said about radar and link 16 by off-board data could do it too

How exactly do you think AMRAAMS work??

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14 years 5 months

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are you confusing passive and active ?

we use the asraam wvr/just bvr range, with similar functions as the mica ir

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14 years

Posts: 11

MICA EM (RF) range

the mica rf does have a range of 50-60k

Dear Jackjack

I think that there is a small confusion here:;)
MICA RF does have range exceeding 60km, as Taiwanese Air Force shot down a target drone in May 1998 67km away (see the link hereunder).
http://www.taiwanairpower.org/af/mirage.html

Of course here we are talking about "range" not NEZ, which is quite different. But it is the same thing for every air-to-air missile, I think (although Meteor might have a different "paradigm" due to its aerobe engine?:confused:)

Best regards
Vorpal777

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14 years 5 months

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another polite, correct post, are you going to make a habit of this :D
does a 70k tail wind count :diablo:
i was using the numbers posted in this thread
there are a few missiles that are trying to improve the end game, but meteor seems to be leading
it will be interesting to see if we choose the meteor
lets not start with NEZ, this is hard enough

are you able to explain to us why the mica ir cant on-board passively engage at that range

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18 years 7 months

Posts: 893

i think the radar would provide the targeting bvr info to bring it in range for the ir to take over

The radar is just another sensor that is fused and correlated with other sources. While it adds some value to the "big picture", it's not a must have item of the whole weapons/targetting system.
Fully passive BVR shots can be achieved (even without LRF). That doesn't mean this capability actually makes sense on an operational standpoint.