Rafales for Brasil #3, Cachorro-quente!

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14 years 5 months

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If it was on pure performance/capability the rafale would be the winner:D

no, that was the one SH won, by air having an increase from 5% to 10% performance requirement in the eval, it took a 40% TOT to knock it out
dont embarrass yourself by having a SH vs Rafale capability debate

it has been clearly said there wont be a contract before the election, its time to start a FX 3 page here

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19 years 11 months

Posts: 1,403

no, that was the one SH won, by air having an increase from 5% to 10% performance requirement in the eval, it took a 40% TOT to knock it out
dont embarrass yourself by having a SH vs Rafale capability debate

no the SH won on the price of the plane and the costs of ownership due to cheap US spare parts and weapons. Which can be explained by the rather big production for the US navy, weak dollar and the poor ToT package (a package that does not come for free in the rafale offer).

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go back a couple of pages and see what the Brazilian posters said, i am quoting their numbers and results

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http://translate.google.com.br/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.fab.mil.br/portal/capa/index.php%3Fdatan%3D03/08/2010%26page%3Dmostra_notimpol&sl=pt&tl=en

Google translated:

Folha de São Paulo, São Paulo, terça-feira, 03 de agosto de 2010

ELIANE CANTANHÊDE

BRASILIA - And the new fighters FAB, huh? Are flying around, nobody knows, nobody saw.
Lula announced the choice of the French Rafale on September 7, 2009, before the official report of Aeronautics pricing, logistics, technical skills, technology transfer and the like. Given the embarrassment, he reneged.
When the report was ready, was approved by the High Command of the FAB on December 18 and sent a letter to Nelson Jobim on January 5. Created the impasse: the Rafale ranked last, behind the Swedish Gripen NG (first) and the American F-18 (second). And Jobim went on to make a parallel report, summarizing the more than 2,000 pages in half a hundred, to show, by "a" plus "b" was better than the Rafale.
Throughout this time, there are numerous statements by the minister and other Brazilian authorities announced the official choice for the winner there a few weeks or days. So far, nothing.
Jobim lost a spectacular moment to disclose the result: the combination of World Cup with congressional recess, when only criticized the vuvuzela and Dunga. Who would cry if it was against the Rafale, Gripen or F-18? Now, in the middle of the election, everything is much more complicated. Any ad that does Lula, who wins, it will inevitably give ammunition to the opposition.
It is likely that the President has considered the risks of opting for the World Cup between France and the election and / or have been upset with Nicolas Sarkozy ally, which pulled the rug in negotiating the nuclear deal with Iran
The fact is that the project FX-2 (fighter) beat wings and flew. Possibly, past the election.

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19 years 11 months

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We don't read the same source JJ

The risk weight were doubled by Brazilian Air Force High Command to gave the F/A-18E/F a lead. From 5% to 10%.

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that indeed could be the problem, so the SH won on risk too
pepe is the guy who said the SH has a rcs 100 times bigger than the rafale, it might be an idea to seek another source


Kovy said
no the SH won on the price of the plane and the costs of ownership due to cheap US spare parts and weapons. Which can be explained by the rather big production for the US navy, weak dollar and the poor ToT package (a package that does not come for free in the rafale offer).

gripen won on cost as far as i know

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18 years 3 months

Posts: 1,447

So What are the variables at stake as all the 3 aircatfts met the minimum technical criteria :

-ToT
-Offset
-Risk
-Costs

-ToT is the most important in terms of weight. Gripen is the winner with the Rafale as a close second and SH is last

-Offset : Rafale is first with gripen and SH quite behind appartently

-Risk : SH won with the rafale as the second and the gripen NG is last far away

-Costs : Gripen won with the SH and the rafale is last.

So the criteria that are being manipulated are far from technical concerns apparently. It would have been interesting if in the competition the aircafts that would have performed better than the minimum standard would get a bonus. From what I understand the extra performance is not really a "plus" if the requirement is achieved.

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15 years 5 months

Posts: 55

According to the article below (O Globo), original weights were:

Logistics: 20%
Technical: 20%
Operating costs: 20%
ToT and risk: 15% (ToT increased from 9% to 40%, Correio Braziliense)
Offset: 15%
Program management: 10%

Google translated:

Aeronautics will refuse to move in a report that points the purchase of Swedish fighters

O Globo, January 7, 2010

BRASILIA - The command of the Air Force will not accept changing the report's conclusion of the competition program FX-2 to delete a rating that put it in first place the Swedish Gripen fighter NG, Saab. The Defence Minister, Nelson Jobim, prefers the government proposal of France and try to negotiate with FAB a text that is not as clear-cut. While insisting on keeping the result of its technical evaluation, the Air Force is willing to accept the government's policy choice, which can lead to the purchase of the French Rafale.

But the Air Force does not want to turn your report in part only advisory. Assesses that the decision has always been the president. The three competing countries know this and did their lobbies. The report of the FAB was completed in October and has not been officially handed over to Defence.

To consider proposals from three consortia competing for business - than French and the Swedes, the United States also participate in the competition - the FAB assessed six items. Gave greater importance to the proposed logistics, technical and cost operating, each with 20% weight in the final evaluation.

The Air Force press the government using financial arguments, because the fighters will fly for 30 years from 2014 through seven presidential terms. Among the competitors, the higher price would be the Rafale. France has promised a significant improvement in price. Still, the Rafale was in last place, behind the F/A-18 from Boeing.

The remaining questions were evaluated by FAB technology transfer and risk (15%), the compensatory trade (15%) and program management (10%). The Government requested the cancellation of such different weights, crucial to the final score, which would open interpretative margin over who was the winner.

Amorim: It is not exclusively a military decision "

In Geneva, the foreign minister, Celso Amorim, said that policy will be the final decision on the purchase of 36 fighters. According to the minister, the definition will be given by President Lula and Jobim.

- We take into account the technical issues, but the final decision rests with the defense minister and the president. It is not a purely military decision. It's a political decision - said the chancellor, in an interview alongside the Minister of the Palestinian Affairs, Riyadh Al-Maki.

Saab and Dassault stated that pending the notification of the FAB and the final decision of the government. Boeing, in a statement, stressed that its proposal presents no risk to your delivery schedule and price quotation - one indirect criticism, has also launched by the French, that the Gripen NG is a prototype and may be delayed in delivery and extras Price.

The government only wants to resume the subject from next Monday. Congress is beginning to mobilize.

- No doubt that the opposition will exploit this alleged contradiction between the technical opinion and political choice. But the fact is that the three fighters are appropriate for the country, and France guarantees the transfer of technology, a key issue for the state - said John Peter PT (AM), the Committee on Foreign Relations and National Defense of the Senate.

To the committee's chairman, Eduardo Azeredo (PSDB-MG), Lula must decide soon.

- The positioning of the FAB should have greater weight. The government has already done damage to their political fallout. What more is you can not delay the decision. The purchase must be made.

Aeronáutica se recusará a mexer em relatório que aponta a compra de caças suecos
O Globo, 07 de Janeiro de 2010

BRASÍLIA – O comando da Aeronáutica não aceitará modificar a conclusão do relatório da concorrência do programa FX-2 para excluir a classificação que colocou em primeiro lugar o caça sueco Gripen NG, da Saab. O ministro da Defesa, Nelson Jobim, prefere a proposta do governo da França e tenta negociar com a FAB um texto que não seja tão taxativo. Apesar de insistir em manter o resultado de sua avaliação técnica, a Aeronáutica está disposta a acatar a opção política do governo, que pode levar à compra do francês Rafale.

Mas a FAB não quer transformar seu relatório em peça apenas consultiva. Avalia que a decisão sempre foi do presidente. Os três países concorrentes sabem disso e fizeram seus lobbies. O relatório da FAB foi concluído em outubro e não foi oficialmente entregue à Defesa.

Para analisar as propostas dos três consórcios que disputam o negócio – além dos franceses e dos suecos, os Estados Unidos também participam da concorrência -, a FAB avaliou seis quesitos. Deu maior importância para as propostas de logística, técnica e de custo operacional, cada uma com 20% de peso na avaliação final.

A Aeronáutica pressiona o governo usando argumentos financeiros, porque os caças voarão por 30 anos a partir de 2014, atravessando sete mandatos presidenciais. Entre os concorrentes, o preço mais alto seria o do Rafale. A França prometeu uma melhora significativa no preço. Ainda assim, o Rafale ficou em último lugar, atrás do F/A-18 da Boeing.

Os demais quesitos avaliados pela FAB foram a transferência de tecnologia e risco (15%), as contrapartidas comerciais (15%) e o gerenciamento do programa (10%). O governo solicitou o cancelamento desses diferentes pesos, cruciais para a pontuação final, o que abriria margem interpretativa sobre quem foi o vencedor.

Amorim: “Não é decisão exclusivamente militar”

Em Genebra, o ministro das Relações Exteriores, Celso Amorim, disse que será política a decisão final sobre a compra dos 36 caças. Segundo o ministro, a definição será dada pelo presidente Lula e por Jobim.

- Vamos levar em conta as questões técnicas, mas a decisão final cabe ao ministro da Defesa e ao presidente da República. Não é uma decisão exclusivamente militar. É uma decisão política – afirmou o chanceler, em entrevista ao lado do ministro de Negócios da Palestina, Riad Al-Maki.

A Saab e a Dassault declararam que aguardam a notificação da FAB e a decisão final do governo. A Boeing, em nota, destacou que sua proposta não apresenta riscos em seu cronograma de entrega e na cotação de preços – uma crítica indireta, também já lançada pelos franceses, de que o Gripen NG é um protótipo e pode sofrer atrasos na entrega e acréscimos de preço.

O governo só pretende retomar o assunto a partir da próxima segunda-feira. O Congresso já começa se mobilizar.

- Não tenho dúvida de que a oposição vai explorar essa suposta contradição entre o parecer técnico e a escolha política. Mas o fato é que os três caças são adequados para o país, e a França garante a transferência de tecnologia, ponto fundamental para o Estado – disse o petista João Pedro (AM), da comissão de Relações Exteriores e Defesa Nacional do Senado.

Para o presidente da comissão, Eduardo Azeredo (PSDB-MG), Lula precisa decidir logo.
- O posicionamento da FAB deve ter o maior peso. O governo já fez o estrago com sua precipitação política. O que não se pode mais é postergar a decisão. A compra precisa ser feita.

Member for

18 years 3 months

Posts: 1,447

Now that's clear that as the Brazilian choice will be purlely political and on financial basis any aircraft that is rated first is in a fragile position.

It all depends on the subjective perception of what has to be the best valued as a criteria. So a next government might weight more another criteria and change the winner without calling into question the whole evaluation.

I know understand why France is already preparing the post electoral period with Dilma Brazilian favourite for the run for presidency.

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19 years

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have they made a decision already? combat aircraft may be obsolete by the time they do.

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new president = new eval
FX 3 anyone ?

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19 years 11 months

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New thread here.