Rafales for Brasil #3, Cachorro-quente!

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14 years 3 months

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and that's why we'll have a decision during the worldcup :)

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14 years 11 months

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and that's why we'll have a decision during the worldcup :)

Perhaps during the 2014 World Cup when Brazil are hosting... ;)

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14 years 2 months

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so even with all the technology and aircraft on offer this is still causing Dassault problems?

I'm shocked.

It is slightly farcical now, but i was suprised when a political leader said he was going to tell everyone which aircraft was the best and they would just have to swallow it.

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14 years 3 months

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actually, it looks to me that it's the first time that in a country the ones who are supposed to make such a decision are the last to decide. usually, the military test, make a report and then politicians decide what is best in their opinion for their nation (officially at least) and that's it. Here, everybody and his uncle in brasil seems suddenly to be an expert whose opinion must be taken into account for buying fighter planes...

Unique...

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14 years 6 months

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actually, it looks to me that it's the first time that in a country the ones who are supposed to make such a decision are the last to decide. usually, the military test, make a report and then politicians decide what is best in their opinion for their nation (officially at least) and that's it. Here, everybody and his uncle in brasil seems suddenly to be an expert whose opinion must be taken into account for buying fighter planes...

Unique...

Well, everybody and his uncle are going to be paying for them..... :)

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14 years 3 months

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certainly, but still... what can they base their judgement upon?

If they want the cheapest aircraft, why not call Yakovlev in Russia, they'll be glad to sell them some brand new yak-3 frames... and they'll be able to buy over a hundred of these for a price on a single gripen, not to speak about operational costs ;)

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15 years 5 months

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certainly, but still... what can they base their judgement upon?

If they want the cheapest aircraft, why not call Yakovlev in Russia, they'll be glad to sell them some brand new yak-3 frames... and they'll be able to buy over a hundred of these for a price on a single gripen, not to speak about operational costs ;)

The evaluations exept the presidents own, have all pointed to gripen as no 1 ;).
The president seems not to have the right arguement for rafale at the moment thats why maybe?

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16 years

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how many cachorro quente do we have to stuff into our mouths before Loolah decides on an aircraft? :)

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14 years 3 months

Posts: 3,259

The evaluations exept the presidents own, have all pointed to gripen as no 1 ;).
The president seems not to have the right arguement for rafale at the moment thats why maybe?

well what happens in all other countries is:

military test the aircraft, politicians decide for reasons they decide (good or bad is beside the point, it's not the best aircraft that wins every time, far from that)

military shut up and is happy with what they have

population learns they have a "great fantastic new aircraft which is the pride of their country"

now, in brasil, there were evaluations, then president said, for strategic reasons rafale is a better option (may he be right or wrong, it's what he has declared) and yet, we get all the time claims, articles and whatnot claiming it should be another aircraft apparently backed by people who, either aren't supposed to speak publically, like the military "in service" or definitely incompetent as far as fighter aircraft acquisition goes (metal workers, how expert are they in either fighters or strategic questions and international partnerships?)

Yet, the one guy who's supposed to be "the leader" of the nation seems to be unable to say clearly: "I was elected to do a job, and as such, I decide to do this and that for this or that reason"

One has to wonder why sarkozy went to brasil to negotiate with him.. better to go and speak with anonymous people on copacabana.. they'll then go speak in the press and the rafale may have been entered production already... :D

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15 years 5 months

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well what happens in all other countries is:

military test the aircraft, politicians decide for reasons they decide (good or bad is beside the point, it's not the best aircraft that wins every time, far from that)

military shut up and is happy with what they have

population learns they have a "great fantastic new aircraft which is the pride of their country"

now, in brasil, there were evaluations, then president said, for strategic reasons rafale is a better option (may he be right or wrong, it's what he has declared) and yet, we get all the time claims, articles and whatnot claiming it should be another aircraft apparently backed by people who, either aren't supposed to speak publically, like the military "in service" or definitely incompetent as far as fighter aircraft acquisition goes (metal workers, how expert are they in either fighters or strategic questions and international partnerships?)

Yet, the one guy who's supposed to be "the leader" of the nation seems to be unable to say clearly: "I was elected to do a job, and as such, I decide to do this and that for this or that reason"

One has to wonder why sarkozy went to brasil to negotiate with him.. better to go and speak with anonymous people on copacabana.. they'll then go speak in the press and the rafale may have been entered production already... :D

no need for evaluations then...

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14 years 3 months

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that's what I was saying... basically: in brasil, no need, indeed ;)

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15 years 5 months

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that's what I was saying... basically: in brasil, no need, indeed ;)

its bound to end up with bribes. And you didnt like it in singapore, did you?

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14 years 3 months

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If the best contender won every time, the rafale would have made a couple of sales already... but such buy is always more political than about the aircraft itself...

in brasil it's no different, it's political. Thing is, the "politician" seems to be the only one that doesn't "do his part"... letting everyone else do it. That delaying and further delaying gives only one image: Lula looks so unable to make a decision (whatever it may be) that it's simply ridiculous.

Dassault did not want to bid in india at some point because they considered it a waste of time.. brasil seems to be something along that way too... a big waste of time

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14 years

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Dassault did not want to bid in india at some point because they considered it a waste of time.. brasil seems to be something along that way too... a big waste of time

nobody twisted their arms to bid in India or Brazil nor did they do either country a favour by bidding. :rolleyes:If they didn't want to they were free to withdraw and someone else would win. No skin off India's or Brazil's back but billions could possibly be at stake for Dassault.

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19 years 1 month

Posts: 742

apparently, Lula has decided.. not to decide...

http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises/industrie/aeronautique-defense/20100406trib000495569/avions-rafale-le-bresil-reporte-sa-decision-a-mai.html

His decision is delayed till the end of may... it seems that everybody in brasil know what they want except the president... now it's the "syndicate of metal workers of sao paulo" that claims support for the gripen. I only wonder when we'll get the national soccer team deciding who they support.

Hi guys,

The Swedes have gotten the support of the powerful SP state metal workers union, but this is in reality a major political stab to Lula`s back... It was exactly in this very same union that Lula began his olitical carrer in the seventies... It is in the ABC region around São Paulo city where his Workers Party (PT) was born. The mayor of São Bernardo do Campo who flew on a Gripen some weeks ago is himself an important Union leader and an ex-minister of the Lula Government. This sudden political repositioning may work to damage the president`s image with its hard core suporters i9n the workers unions... Let`s see what reaction these change of events extract from him, to this moment he opted to move away from the public political confrontation.

Also today the Ministério Publico Federal (Federal Prosecutors office) has declared that it will start looking into the F-X2 aquisition program to see if there is any sugestion of wrongdoing or criminal behaviour in this case...
This will not stop Lula from buying the rafale but it makes such a decision even more controversial. Also this move may work to further dalay the announcement of the decision beyond the may deadline...

As I said before, the Rafale is a wonderful fighter, no doubt, but the government has been very unfortunate in making a credible case for the selection of the clearly most expensive plane of the three.

Also, TooCool please dont go pushing forward these sore looser theories. It is not the best aircraft that will win but that defended by the shrewdest and fastest moving sales team. At this stage if F-X3 was canceled this would be clearly seen as a Dassault loss to the Swedes.

Ironicaly enough when the F-X2 process began some years ago the French lobby was incredibly well positioned. It was very close to the Ministry of Defense, to the Presidency and to the President`s political party. What we have seen recently is that the Swedish seem to have out-maneuvered the French in the recent turns and twists of this competition. The French believed that they had already won this bid by the third quarter of last year. Since them their stay quiet attitude has done little to compensate for Saab`s sustained weekly blows against their proposal.

In my opinion if Lula was confortable with this decision he would have announced it before. Oh, he did announce it! And look at the outcome of that outburst.

Regards,

Hammer

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14 years 3 months

Posts: 3,259

these "theories" are more of a constatation, he said "we'll buy the rafale", then, ok, I'll officially announce the winner in october, then it was a bit later, then, well, maybe a bit later, then again, in april,, then, end of may...

I don't live in brasil, but from europe, what it looks like is like a guy who talks a lot and then is unable take a decision once for all... Lot of people laugh at chavez and his "big declarations" and lula's image overhere is just looking more and more similar: talks and no acts

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14 years 1 month

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Just to add a bit on Hammer’s comment. Also this week, comes the news that the Army will have a budget cut, what raises again the importance of low maintenance costs.

Gripen was FAB’s favorite, but stood no chance with the Federal Government. But SAAB proposal, unlikely the other contenders, includes partnerships for development and production of Gripen in Brazil. Saab put a good proposal on the table. Nelson Jobim keeps doing his utmost to have Rafale as the chosen one tough.

However, Lula is a politician; now he faces a majority of the entrepreneurs, unions, congressmen and FAB that prefer Gripen, all in an election year. Taxpayers would like to know too why the most expensive.

My wild guess: there is some chance that Gripen will be selected, although postponement of the whole process is very possible. If Rafale is chosen right now, the confusion will go on. To add on the suspicious of the Federal Prosecutors Office (MPF), the TCU (sort of Congress General Accounting Office) may look at the process too at anyone request.

Brasil just bought French subs and helis, and more can come in the future; it just doesn’t seem to be the right moment for Rafale.

Naturally, I may be wrong.

Best!
P.S.: TooCool, just between you and me, I think (and you may agree with me) that Le Monde made a mistake by naming Lula the “Man of the Year” …

Member for

14 years 3 months

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Don't know about "Le Monde" (don't read it anyway... too boring most of the time ;) ), but, from what's been said, the french proposed "total technology transfer", which, unless "total" doesn't have the same meaning on both sides of the atlantic would mean they'd build their own aircraft, with the exception of the first few which would come before everything is in place to do it.

On the other hand, SAAB can't offer them "complete production, since all parts d'ont depend on SAAB.. engines, for one, can't be built in brasil if the US decide so... and chances are that they won't give so easily their technology for "hot turbine parts", for example, without which the brasilians won't be able to make workable engines

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 662

The main reason for choosing the Rafale had to
do, since the beginning with technological independence.

If Brazil muddles this up and gets the Gripen instead,
which now seems possible, i just want to say that :
WHEN the US later applies an embargo/refusal/
exportation limitation to the engine or another part,
I will begin posting 60some millions of laughing
finger-up smileys.

( Begin only since the modos most probably will
not let me finish, LOL. )

The US remembered the Alamo; if Brazil forgets the
Tucano, their problem.

Good day all nonetheless.

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14 years 3 months

Posts: 200

lol you guys are very versatile and impressionable ;)