By: Sign
- 7th April 2010 at 15:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@Loke
the other thing that was then mentionned in France
was that Embraer would be associated to the design of the
NEXT, 5TH+ GEN. plane by Dassault. ( Maybe resurgence in
the media of the "stealth" Rafale programme is to be seen
as a reminder of this, since from a French perspective this
was understood as a live but longer-termed item. )
Now how well would the "coalition" of SAAB fans from Brazil
argument for industrial development stand up to that?
Duh! Collaborate on a future fighter with input from experience
in making a 4.5+ gen. one or collaborate on a redesign of a
4.5 gen one, period?
SAAB has one big advantage in the time being there for the
Brazilians to join in their NG but in the long run, it is not so.
.
I do not think Dassault or EADS or SAAB soon be making a "5gen+" fighter, the focus of today is UCAV (ex. Neuron for dassault and Saab). What that gives the future will see.
Both Dassault and Saab(ex. the korean offer) do concepts studies and RnD in the meantime of future fighters. But i doubt any of the europeans are going to do it by them self anymore.
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 7th April 2010 at 15:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
France wants a strategic partner in Brazil while the US want a puppet. Which one do you think is worse?
By: Taygibay
- 7th April 2010 at 15:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And yet Sign, just go to the Rafale news thread to find
a heated debate around Stealth Rafale development
initiated by a Bill Sweetman pick-up on the Web.
If its E-stealth, no problem but if it should include
physical stealth, we are talking about the same redesign
that link F-18C/D to the Super Hornet E/F/G.
Plus, take the nEUROn demonstrator, expand scale 20
to 30 %, add a cockpit and voilà!
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 7th April 2010 at 15:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What's wrong with being a puppet!?
In Norway we love Uncle Sam :D
I hope your collective a$$es don't hurt too much from selecting the JSF :o
By: Sign
- 7th April 2010 at 15:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
France wants a strategic partner in Brazil while the US want a puppet. Which one do you think is worse?
Nic
:)
Sweden wants a strategic partner in brazil as well, so..
if the exludation of US components is on the agenda then so be it. they will manage it.
Volvo Aero and Saab chose a cheaper and better suited engine. This is where the crutual american parts goes.
As fast as it was integrated (a year?), as fast can another engine be integrated.
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 7th April 2010 at 15:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
:)
Sweden wants a strategic partner in brazil as well, so..
if the exludation of US components is on the agenda then so be it. they will manage it.
Volvo Aero and Saab chose a cheaper and better suited engine. This is where the crutual american parts goes.
As fast as it was integrated (a year?), as fast can another engine be integrated.
Making the plan even more "paper"
Soon Saab is going to tell brazil to develop its own plane :D
By: TooCool_12f
- 7th April 2010 at 16:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
it keeps being more and more farcical... the "support" for gripen whose article Loke translated said:
"The other two aircraft, even the more advanced versions such as the F/A18 Super Hornet, already in service for some years. The Rafale does not have a version of the new generation."
the rafale entered service after year 2000, it does not have "jast a version", it IS a new generation aircraft... as much as the gripen NG can expect to be if it ever enters production. The only that can seriously pretend to be "higher generation" than the rafale today is the F-22, the other "potential contenders" are still years from entering service. But again, it's the easiest way to sell something: downplay the competition, especially if your comments are misleading
By: Loke
- 7th April 2010 at 16:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK, Sign mate, let's be serious.
Integrating a new engine ( at least one
which is not a simple evolution of the one
already in place ) is complicated.
The redesign of the Gripen into the NG
takes in the newer version of its actual one.
Anything else would be costly both in time
and money.
I do agree that IF it happened, it would be
very interesting but EJ2000 or ruski?
'Cause that's pretty much it , you know!
The Eurojet engine seems the obvious choice; a feasibility study was already done, and it should be quite straightforward (although still more complicated than with the F414 which was slotted in in "no time").
Several options exist:
1. Get the first 36 Gripen NG with F414. The following Gripen NG would be with the EJ200. The first 36 can be retrofitted later or kept as is.
2. Get 36 Gripen C/D from Sweden; use those while the Gripen NG with EJ200 gets ready.
3. Get Gripen NG with F414 and a large number of spares. If you have the complete specs and tools and know-how to repair the engine, it is not really that critical. Look at Iran they are still flying F-14!!! A US boycott will not hurt Brazil. Keep in mind we're talking engine here, not avionics (which needs a lot of updates to stay current). Brazil can develop a Gripen NG using the EJ200 for export only.
By: TooCool_12f
- 7th April 2010 at 16:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
er, just for information, engine making isn't just about playing a giant 3D puzzle... there is the know how in heat resistant treatment which isn't given just like that.
Snecma sold plans for engines in the early 1980 to the chinese... even today, the chinese engines don't have the durability of the snecma made ones from 25 years ago... simply because their aft turbine pieces can't stand temperatures involved... and it's civilian engines which don't use such high temps as the military ones.
brasil may buy spares, but if they don't know how to prepare the pieces themselves, they'll rapidly have to import more and keep doing so.
By: Sign
- 7th April 2010 at 16:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Making the plan even more "paper"
Soon Saab is going to tell brazil to develop its own plane :D
integration is part of building a plane...
if its a big deal the can manage it in a year or so...thats it. this is not paper. its been made twice, it can be done once more.
By: Sign
- 7th April 2010 at 17:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
er, just for information, engine making isn't just about playing a giant 3D puzzle... there is the know how in heat resistant treatment which isn't given just like that.
Snecma sold plans for engines in the early 1980 to the chinese... even today, the chinese engines don't have the durability of the snecma made ones from 25 years ago... simply because their aft turbine pieces can't stand temperatures involved... and it's civilian engines which don't use such high temps as the military ones.
brasil may buy spares, but if they don't know how to prepare the pieces themselves, they'll rapidly have to import more and keep doing so.
where not talking about building engines, we talk about integration of one.
but when your on to it,
How will Brazil absorb the knowlage from Snecma? I the best copier in the world, china, was not enable to...
By: TooCool_12f
- 7th April 2010 at 18:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sign & Loke, two points:
- if you import the engine, you're dependant on the provider.
- brasil don't want the US to be able to interfere with their defence
in any case, the F414 engine won't cut it in these conditions.
If the EJ200 is to be fit into the airframe, it's another story, but for now it isn't proposed as such (which is strange since Lula expressed concern over the US provider, SAAB probably would have proposed that modification if it was "so simple"
By: Danell
- 7th April 2010 at 19:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yawn ...its useless to repost here all the Gripen propaganda , Jobim declared today the Rafale will be chosen ;)
La exposición del ministro a los diputados pareció eliminar cualquier duda sobre el avión que Brasil escogerá.
"Aquí se me disiparon las dudas sobre cuál avión se escogerá, el Rafale será el escogido", manifestó en la audiencia el diputado opositor Raul Jungmann.
By: arthuro
- 7th April 2010 at 19:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This competition is really exiting...Its more about politics/lobbying than specs to say the least but still its as good as a good moovie ! What a suspens !
I am waiting for SAAB counter counter attack now that the choice is the rafale.
I must say that SAAB are really good in the lobbying exercise...They never give up and come with pretty convincing arguments. I think sometimes they speak too much and with too obvious press connections but still pretty efficient.
I respect them for that.
I bet dassault's strategy is more behind the curtain and off the press. I can't help thinking that dassault is sometimes too traditional/discrete in its approach and should learn from SAAB.
Posts: 1,577
By: Sign - 7th April 2010 at 15:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I do not think Dassault or EADS or SAAB soon be making a "5gen+" fighter, the focus of today is UCAV (ex. Neuron for dassault and Saab). What that gives the future will see.
Both Dassault and Saab(ex. the korean offer) do concepts studies and RnD in the meantime of future fighters. But i doubt any of the europeans are going to do it by them self anymore.
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 7th April 2010 at 15:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
France wants a strategic partner in Brazil while the US want a puppet. Which one do you think is worse?
Nic
Posts: 3,280
By: Loke - 7th April 2010 at 15:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What's wrong with being a puppet!?
In Norway we love Uncle Sam :D
Posts: 662
By: Taygibay - 7th April 2010 at 15:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And yet Sign, just go to the Rafale news thread to find
a heated debate around Stealth Rafale development
initiated by a Bill Sweetman pick-up on the Web.
If its E-stealth, no problem but if it should include
physical stealth, we are talking about the same redesign
that link F-18C/D to the Super Hornet E/F/G.
Plus, take the nEUROn demonstrator, expand scale 20
to 30 %, add a cockpit and voilà!
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 7th April 2010 at 15:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I hope your collective a$$es don't hurt too much from selecting the JSF :o
Posts: 662
By: Taygibay - 7th April 2010 at 15:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That whole hand up that hole in your bottom, maybe?:D
:p;):D:diablo:
Posts: 1,577
By: Sign - 7th April 2010 at 15:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
:)
Sweden wants a strategic partner in brazil as well, so..
if the exludation of US components is on the agenda then so be it. they will manage it.
Volvo Aero and Saab chose a cheaper and better suited engine. This is where the crutual american parts goes.
As fast as it was integrated (a year?), as fast can another engine be integrated.
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 7th April 2010 at 15:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Making the plan even more "paper"
Soon Saab is going to tell brazil to develop its own plane :D
Posts: 662
By: Taygibay - 7th April 2010 at 16:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK, Sign mate, let's be serious.
Integrating a new engine ( at least one
which is not a simple evolution of the one
already in place ) is complicated.
The redesign of the Gripen into the NG
takes in the newer version of its actual one.
Anything else would be costly both in time
and money.
I do agree that IF it happened, it would be
very interesting but EJ2000 or ruski?
'Cause that's pretty much it , you know!
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 7th April 2010 at 16:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
it keeps being more and more farcical... the "support" for gripen whose article Loke translated said:
"The other two aircraft, even the more advanced versions such as the F/A18 Super Hornet, already in service for some years. The Rafale does not have a version of the new generation."
the rafale entered service after year 2000, it does not have "jast a version", it IS a new generation aircraft... as much as the gripen NG can expect to be if it ever enters production. The only that can seriously pretend to be "higher generation" than the rafale today is the F-22, the other "potential contenders" are still years from entering service. But again, it's the easiest way to sell something: downplay the competition, especially if your comments are misleading
Posts: 3,280
By: Loke - 7th April 2010 at 16:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Eurojet engine seems the obvious choice; a feasibility study was already done, and it should be quite straightforward (although still more complicated than with the F414 which was slotted in in "no time").
Several options exist:
1. Get the first 36 Gripen NG with F414. The following Gripen NG would be with the EJ200. The first 36 can be retrofitted later or kept as is.
2. Get 36 Gripen C/D from Sweden; use those while the Gripen NG with EJ200 gets ready.
3. Get Gripen NG with F414 and a large number of spares. If you have the complete specs and tools and know-how to repair the engine, it is not really that critical. Look at Iran they are still flying F-14!!! A US boycott will not hurt Brazil. Keep in mind we're talking engine here, not avionics (which needs a lot of updates to stay current). Brazil can develop a Gripen NG using the EJ200 for export only.
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 7th April 2010 at 16:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
er, just for information, engine making isn't just about playing a giant 3D puzzle... there is the know how in heat resistant treatment which isn't given just like that.
Snecma sold plans for engines in the early 1980 to the chinese... even today, the chinese engines don't have the durability of the snecma made ones from 25 years ago... simply because their aft turbine pieces can't stand temperatures involved... and it's civilian engines which don't use such high temps as the military ones.
brasil may buy spares, but if they don't know how to prepare the pieces themselves, they'll rapidly have to import more and keep doing so.
Posts: 1,577
By: Sign - 7th April 2010 at 16:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
integration is part of building a plane...
if its a big deal the can manage it in a year or so...thats it. this is not paper. its been made twice, it can be done once more.
Posts: 1,577
By: Sign - 7th April 2010 at 17:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
where not talking about building engines, we talk about integration of one.
but when your on to it,
How will Brazil absorb the knowlage from Snecma? I the best copier in the world, china, was not enable to...
Posts: 3,280
By: Loke - 7th April 2010 at 17:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
???
How often do the French engines break then?
Posts: 662
By: Taygibay - 7th April 2010 at 17:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@Sign ToT
@Loke in context, he was refering to the
Gripen's F414 as in previous message by Sign.
Good day all.
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 7th April 2010 at 18:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sign & Loke, two points:
- if you import the engine, you're dependant on the provider.
- brasil don't want the US to be able to interfere with their defence
in any case, the F414 engine won't cut it in these conditions.
If the EJ200 is to be fit into the airframe, it's another story, but for now it isn't proposed as such (which is strange since Lula expressed concern over the US provider, SAAB probably would have proposed that modification if it was "so simple"
Posts: 200
By: Danell - 7th April 2010 at 19:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yawn ...its useless to repost here all the Gripen propaganda , Jobim declared today the Rafale will be chosen ;)
http://www.elnuevoherald.com/2010/04/07/691425/brasil-ratifican-preferencia-por.html
http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/mat/2010/04/07/relatorio-sobre-cacas-indicara-modelo-frances-diz-jobim-916270711.asp
http://noticias.terra.com.br/brasil/noticias/0,,OI4367915-EI306,00-Jobim+aponta+caca+frances+como+a+melhor+oferta+em+analise.html
Posts: 662
By: Taygibay - 7th April 2010 at 19:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@ Danell, Thanks, thanks, thanks!:):D
Posts: 1,447
By: arthuro - 7th April 2010 at 19:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This competition is really exiting...Its more about politics/lobbying than specs to say the least but still its as good as a good moovie ! What a suspens !
I am waiting for SAAB counter counter attack now that the choice is the rafale.
I must say that SAAB are really good in the lobbying exercise...They never give up and come with pretty convincing arguments. I think sometimes they speak too much and with too obvious press connections but still pretty efficient.
I respect them for that.
I bet dassault's strategy is more behind the curtain and off the press. I can't help thinking that dassault is sometimes too traditional/discrete in its approach and should learn from SAAB.