One F-117 downed , second F-117 damaged ?

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Sorry to bring this “old” issue but just came across this article ….

“In the Kosovo air war in 1999, the Serbian air defenses proved that stealth aircraft need to be acutely aware of the radar threats they face: one U.S. F-117 “stealth” aircraft was shot down by radar assisted defenses; a second F-117 was sufficiently damaged that it did not fly in combat again.”

Full article can be seen by going to http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?DocumentID=4636&StartRow=1&ListRows=10&appendURL=&Orderby=D.DateLastUpdated&ProgramID=37&from_page=index.cfm

So one shot down and second damaged ?
Very interesting , how much still we do not know about Air War over Kosovo back in 1999?

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Well what are you driving at?

Damage to NATO air assets has been well reported and nothing nefarious has come up.

There was a guy in Russia called Venik who had an interesting website with all sorts of paranoid theories about damage to NATO fighters and shoot downs. Apparently he was taking Serbian new reports during allied force and taking them as gospel truth! B1's, B2's, B52's and all sorts of NATO tacair had been shot down during the conflict according to him and he had all sorts of wild theories why no wreckage had been found or crew captured.

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This nonsens has been up countless times.
A rather flameable topic too, better leave it.

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About the F-117, an interesting fact is, that while supossed to be "invisible" and operate alone in SAM enviornment, it was not used for that role in the conflict, but rather as a slow, conventional and poorely handled bomber. This came as a result of that after its proven vulnerability to serbian SAMs, the F-117 was declared dangerous to fly under those SAMs, and since then all F-117 flights were escorted with fighters with HARM anti-radar missiles, like if it was the same as a conventional bomber, equally vulnerable.

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About the F-117, an interesting fact is, that while supossed to be "invisible" and operate alone in SAM enviornment, it was not used for that role in the conflict, but rather as a slow, conventional and poorely handled bomber. This came as a result of that after its proven vulnerability to serbian SAMs, the F-117 was declared dangerous to fly under those SAMs, and since then all F-117 flights were escorted with fighters with HARM anti-radar missiles, like if it was the same as a conventional bomber, equally vulnerable.

Nonsense to stay polite.

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Uggghhh! How many times does this have to be written!

The F117 was not designed to be invisible! It was designed to be more survivable in a high threat environment. It was not intended to work independently of other assets.

It was meant to be able to enter an area with a highly integrated air defence network and take out high value targets like command centres and communication junctions/nodes.

Arguably the stealthiest aspect of the F117 was its mission planning system which was designed to provide a path to target that avoids radar coverage.

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Nonsense to stay polite.

- http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/11/23/f117/

"Inmediatly after the downing of the F-117, Coalition forces developed measures in order to to not let occur more situations like that. The f-117s no longer flew in solitary, they were escorted with fighters with HARM missiles (anti-radar)"

Nosense is to have a "stealth" SAM evading bomber, and to need to escort it with anti-radar missiles. If anything here is "nosense" it is the US military planification.

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What's nonsense is drawing a conclusion, based upon a singular incident, while ignoring thousands of other examples, which don't support your hypothesis.

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- http://lenta.ru/articles/2005/11/23/f117/

"Inmediatly after the downing of the F-117, Coalition forces developed measures in order to to not let occur more situations like that. The f-117s no longer flew in solitary, they were escorted with fighters with HARM missiles (anti-radar)"

Nosense is to have a "stealth" SAM evading bomber, and to need to escort it with anti-radar missiles. If anything here is "nosense" it is the US military planification.

Utter TOSH!

The F117 operated as part of larger escorted strike packages throughout the campaign. The USAF did not change general tactics as a result of the shootdown.

The F117 shot down went down a know strike corridor and was caught out by an opportunistic missile battery, it was a fluke rather then a major failing in the aircraft.

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What's nonsense is drawing a conclusion, based upon a singular incident, while ignoring thousands of other examples, which don't support your hypothesis.

Well, don't know about whatever the "amateur" thinking we have here, but the fact that the US completely changed the planification on wich those F-117 operated specifically after that incident, gives us a hint about what conclusions the US planners have reached, and they had to have strong motives to make such a change. And I guess those planners knew better than anyone all the combat "examples" of the F-117.

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The following is an example of how claims like this can get out of hand.

Now we have Lt. Col Djordje Anicic claiming that B-2 Spirit of Missouri is missing!

Part of the Interview with Djordje Anicic, deputy comander of third division of 250 rocket brigade of Yugoslav Army, translated in English, TV Kosava ,Serbia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qi1z4vh79A

Remember that in the case of the B-2 during this time frame that as a strategic nuclear capable heavy bomber it was covered by START treaty. Maybe Lt Col Anicic can inform US Congress that the USAF have struck off Spirit of Missouri. Perhaps he can inform the Russians that Missouri can now be struck off the verification list along with Spirit of Kansas? :)

All F-117 airframes used during Allied Force, bar shot down 82-806, were accounted for and noted flying post conflict. All B-2s, now minus Spirit of Kansas which crashed in 2008 on camera, can be accounted for.

TJ

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Utter TOSH!

The F117 operated as part of larger escorted strike packages throughout the campaign. The USAF did not change general tactics as a result of the shootdown.

The F117 shot down went down a know strike corridor and was caught out by an opportunistic missile battery, it was a fluke rather then a major failing in the aircraft.

The F-117 was intended to operate in dense SAM enviornements and to bomb value targets, on the notion that it's stealth would evade SAM threats, and it flew like that in Serbia until one was shot down, and another damaged. After that it was reported to reduce it's flights and flying always escorted, wich was not compatible for the operations it was designed for.

And the incident showed it's design flaws: a sacrifice design for minimum RCS visible to 60s L-band radars wich resulted in a slow, poor flight and very unstable bomber, vulnerable to 1st gen SAM missiles

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I think what you have all missed is following - officially only one F-117 was shot down / damaged . Now according to that article , and that article represent testimony of “ expert” who used to work for US government , and was giving testimony to Canadian government regarding purchase of F-35 , US Air Force has suffered two combat losses ,one shot down and second one was damaged to the point that it could not be repaired in order to fly combat missions again.

This was statement in writing by Winslow T. Wheeler, Director, Straus Military Reform Project,Center for Defense Information in Washington, D.C. on Canada’s Next Generation Fighter Aircraft to the Standing Committee on National Defence, House of Commons, Parliament of Canada.

Now my question is how much we do not know about that war , and especially about number of shot down / damaged aircrafts.
According to all “official” historians 1 x F16 and 1 x F-117 was shot down. Now according to Mr Winslow T. Wheeler who is Director of Straus Military Reform Project at Centre for Defence Information in Washington, D.C one was damaged beyond repair …so that is combat loss as well.
Is there more to be disclosed in the future?

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Basic research by Lt Col Anicic would have found photographic evidence of every B-2 post conflict. Especially Spirit of Missouri. It must be hard for those maintainers constantly repainting B-2s with different serials and names in order to keep the shot down airframe a secret? Oh the conspiracy! :rolleyes:

http://www.ozatwar.com/usaaf/13threactivated.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mulesafpilot/3990613211/in/photostream/

A Wiki entry for Spirit of Missouri. Sure sign that it is a huge conspiracy!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:B-2_Spirit_returns_to_WHITEMAN_AIR_FORCE_BASE.jpg

They even have to make sure the Spirit of Missouri is noted displaying at airshows in order to keep the ruse going? :)

http://jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?regsearch=88-0329

TJ

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TEEJ this tread is not about Lt Col Anicic but it is about Mr Winslow T. Wheeler who is Director of Straus Military Reform Project at Centre for Defence Information in Washington, D.C and his statment to Canadian goverment.
Is he wrong?

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It must be hard for those maintainers constantly repainting B-2s with different serials and names in order to keep the shot down airframe a secret? Oh the conspiracy! :rolleyes:

Well theoretically you'd only have to do it once, assuming an extra airframe or three rolled off the line at some point preserved for that or other nefarious purposes. That there's currently a "Spirit of Missouri" flying around doesn't necessarily mean that one was never shot down.

Not that I'm lending this conspiracy theory any particular credence...

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Again ,this tread is not about B-2 , it is about F-117 that was , allegedly damaged beyond repair during war.
Any more cases like this?

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GrM wrote

was damaged beyond repair …so that is combat loss as well.

But that is not the case. If it was written off then it would still be missing from the inventory - struck off charge - withdrawn from the inventory.

Every F-117 that took part, less 82-806, noted active post conflict.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=886914&postcount=252

http://www.f-117a.com/Yugo.html

Is there more to be disclosed in the future?

All those missing aircraft and personnel. All those changes of Governments in NATO countries since 1999 and still nobody is coming forward? All those missing aircraft and still aviation enthusiasts and aviation media haven't noticed?

Venik revisted the losses - still nothing. Those claimed losses happened under Clinton and Blair and still nobody is talking? The claimed hidden losses wouldn't have lasted five minutes let alone this period of time.

http://www.truthinmedia.org/Bulletins2000/tim2000-5-1.html

TJ

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The F-117 was intended to operate in dense SAM enviornements and to bomb value targets, on the notion that it's stealth would evade SAM threats, and it flew like that in Serbia until one was shot down, and another damaged. After that it was reported to reduce it's flights and flying always escorted, wich was not compatible for the operations it was designed for.

And the incident showed it's design flaws: a sacrifice design for minimum RCS visible to 60s L-band radars wich resulted in a slow, poor flight and very unstable bomber, vulnerable to 1st gen SAM missiles

Which is why hundreds of F-117s were lost in Iraq and Serbia. Oh wait, that's not the case.
You're suffering from a case of "don't confuse me with the facts." The fact of the matter is that F-117s flew thousands of missions unscathed, but this is conveniently ignored by those that inform themselves by youtube, and .ru sites. If you do some research, you'll see that the SAM site was ~8nm from the F-117, when it engaged(hardly demonstrating that stealth is ineffective). Another thing to ponder is that F-117s had no MAWS, ECM, etc.., resulting in poor situational awareness, or self defense measures. Had that not been the case, the outcome may very well have been different.

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Again ,this tread is not about B-2 , it is about F-117 that was , allegedly damaged beyond repair during war.
Any more cases like this?

But you can't ignore the fact that this claim about the B-2 is coming from a high ranker serving in the 250th! The same person who is claiming the F-117 damaged! He is even claiming that the wreck site was closed off and all evidence removed of Spirit of Missouri. Not to mention the claims of an audio recording of the stricken aircraft! It shows the mindset that surrounds these types of claims and how conspiracy theories evolve and develop.

TJ

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15 years 6 months

Posts: 2,318

Well theoretically you'd only have to do it once, assuming an extra airframe or three rolled off the line at some point preserved for that or other nefarious purposes. That there's currently a "Spirit of Missouri" flying around doesn't necessarily mean that one was never shot down.

Not that I'm lending this conspiracy theory any particular credence...

Where have I seen those type of claims before? There is no point posting it if you don't believe it yourself? Secret production lines all hidden from Congress not to mention the CIS inspectors involved in START/SORT? You can see how silly claims such as these can quickly get out of hand and off into the world of conspiracy? :)

TJ