By: Blitzo
- 30th June 2011 at 22:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My point is that they have made stunning progress anyway. But you can progress that fast as it is showed.
Look at other Asian countries.
South Korea - first F-16 license, later the T-50 that fits somewhere between combat aircrafts and trainers.
Japan - F-15 license for many years, later not so successful F-2.
India - the Su-30 license and lots of experience on upgrades, but Tejas seems to fit same class as combat T-50
Those countries had full support of US, Russia and/or other countries aviation industries (the landing gear of T-50 was designed by Dassault).
At same time the Chinese would develop such a growth in isolation?
Yes, more or less. Building and J-7 upgrades, building and J-8 upgrades, JH-7/A, J-10, Flanker experience and eventually building their own etc...
You still have to do your own research and tests even if you're building off a known airframe, especially if no one else is there to help you.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at -- are you implying that the Chinese industry had no foreign help (as opposed to other countries in the region) therefore their progress we see now is either A: unexpected, B: faked, C: stolen?
And for J-20, it confuses me. First I thought that it is just a mock-up, now I still consider it to be flying mock-up, but really I don’t know what to think about it.
I think it might confuse you even more when it gets into service around 2018 :p
And compare progress in civil aviation, if they would be so advanced they should at least try to develop some regional jet like Suchoj Super Jet, instead they will assemble A320.
Heard of ARJ-21 and COMAC 919? But it's true that the whole chinese aerospace industry is not suited for building larger transport aircraft.
By: Deino
- 1st July 2011 at 06:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@Corran
First of all HELLO here on borad, but second ...
J-11B? What is J-11B? There is absolutely no reliable information on that airplane. Many here say that serial airplanes are using WS-10 engine - I very much doubt it. I saw some pictures of test airframe Su-27 with one AL-31 and one WS-10, WS-10 is bigger and requires the whole engine bay to be modified.
Come on ... YES, we don't have much realiable information of the individual avionics fit, but we know for sure it has a new radar, new cockpit with MFD's + HUD, several other items and most of all from block 02 on it is powered by the WS-10A Thaihang. Honestly I can't believe that You still doubt that since there are so many Chinese reports on that, we have high resolution photos - maybe not that clear as we all wish - but surely good enough to say for sure it's a new engine.
At the moment there are at least four operational regiments flying already with these new birds or just under conversion ... and they are surely not simply painted AL-31F's.
As such to deny these changes and esp. the new powerplant would be plain stupid.
Besides that, the one with both engine with that "larger diameter + modified engine bay" (IMO not necessary different, since the TH was developed to fit the standard bay), that was the prototypes WS-10 not to confuse with the serial WS-10A !
As for J-15. Chinese have acquired one of the Su-27K (now called Su-33) prototypes from Ukraine. I believe that with their know-how on Flankers they are capable to make it into flyable condition. And not much more. The crazy idea that the carrier based J-15 is flying on WS-10 is just ridiculous as this engine is far from being mature and that carrier use is much more demanding on the aircraft. The original Su-33 use special AL-31 variant that for short period of time can give additional thrust comparing with the standard AL-31 (it probably works similar to R-25 engine from MiG-21bis).
Then again You seem to ignore the latest photos & reports - maybe You are bettere familiar with the scene on Russian aviation but not on Chinese !? You are correct that the first and second prototype flew with the AL-31F, but the latest - the grey one - is clearly powered by the same engine like all J-11B, BH, BS & BSH are powered. Again - and I'm surprised too - but You should believe that "crazy idea" even if You don't want to !
As such ... and that again seems to prove the other reports, the PLAAF and PLANAF together with SAC are quite confident enough in that engine.
and finally ...
My conclusion is that JF-17, J-10 and J-11B radars ... . Engines:AL-31 or RD-93, the WS-10 is not 1 on 1 copy but is heavily inspired by the AL-31.
Again that might be Your conclusion even if already known that the TH is not to a minimum based on the AL-31F but related to the CFM-56's core ...
By: Corran
- 1st July 2011 at 09:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Come on ... YES, we don't have much realiable information of the individual avionics fit, but we know for sure it has a new radar, new cockpit with MFD's + HUD,
True, but what is important is that those elements are Chinese made, and not necessarily better than Russian. And this is a big win for them as they developed capabilities produce aircrafts on their own.
several other items and most of all from block 02 on it is powered by the WS-10A Thaihang. Honestly I can't believe that You still doubt that since there are so many Chinese reports on that, we have high resolution photos - maybe not that clear as we all wish - but surely good enough to say for sure it's a new engine.
But doesn't prove that the engine is ready to be used in operational frontline units. For sure Chinese have some umber of experimental Flankers powered by WS-10 (including at least one with canards and folding wings).
At the moment there are at least four operational regiments flying already with these new birds or just under conversion ... and they are surely not simply painted AL-31F's.
As such to deny these changes and esp. the new powerplant would be plain stupid.
Ok, I will be very happy if you help me to extend my knowledge. Four operational regiments mean that there should be around 100 aircrafts + even more for OCU. This is bold claim, how can you confirm the existence of over 100 J-11B? How long it took to manufacture them?
By: haavarla
- 1st July 2011 at 09:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok, its all boils down to this:
If China are able to produce its own WS-10 fighter engine without importing any spares parts, then good for China.
Now if the eninges is as reliable and have the same fuel consumption as AL-31F or not.. Its not that important.
Chinese Aviation industry have to start somewhere just like everybody else.
And China has shown the ability to improve its product in the past, so well done!
By: Deino
- 1st July 2011 at 10:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
...Ok, I will be very happy if you help me to extend my knowledge. Four operational regiments mean that there should be around 100 aircrafts + even more for OCU. This is bold claim, how can you confirm the existence of over 100 J-11B? How long it took to manufacture them?
As far what I know the J-11B was manufactured in 4 lots ...
in 2008:
Lot 00 - 20 J-11B - 1st Division (1st Regiment at Anshan)
until then all produced J-11B had to be re-engined again to the AL-31F because of quality issues of the TH. Of special note is that these were in one point general a problem regarding their operation / service life and second - that's why we've seen several engine-less J-11B's and BS' standing around at SAC for a while - because of a much higher than anticipated rate of parts not reaching the required quality ... as such Shenyang liming wasn't able to deliver as many WS-10A as required for the new figthers. These problems were reportedly solved by late 2009 and from 2010 production is again on a high level:
in 2010:
Lot 01 - 20 J-11B - 30th Division (88th Regiment at Yingchengzi or 89th Regiment at Datong-Pulandian) + 4 J-11BS trainers
Lot 03 - 20 J-11B 8th PLANAF Division (24th Regiment at Jialaishi) + 4 J-11BS
in 2011:
Lot 04 - 20 J-11B 37th Division (originally they were thought to go to the 6th 6th Division, 16th Regiment at Lintao) + 4 J-11BS
You might be correct that actually not all units have reached their full complement of 24 aircraft but at least these units have been confirmed with TH-powered J-11B/BS and since (at least IMO) it doen't make sense to fly two different types engines within one unit, it could be assumed that they finally will be re-equipped with only TH-powered ones.
By: Blitzo
- 1st July 2011 at 12:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@ Corran, if you're new to the PLAAF I suggest huitong's site: http://cnair.top81.cn/index.html
There are some fairly comprehensive (if a few outdated) write ups on most of the PLAAF's past, current and future aircraft. Unfortunately there is nothing near officially released info on things like the number of J-11Bs in service, readiness of WS-10 or what the role of J-20 is etc, but we can extrapolate from pictures and credible accounts on chinese BBS
By: Corran
- 2nd July 2011 at 08:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok, its all boils down to this:
If China are able to produce its own WS-10 fighter engine without importing any spares parts, then good for China.
Now if the eninges is as reliable and have the same fuel consumption as AL-31F or not.. Its not that important.
Chinese Aviation industry have to start somewhere just like everybody else.
And China has shown the ability to improve its product in the past, so well done!
Exactly! This is my point.
The goal of J-11B is not to be better than J-11 (and in my opinion it is not) but to be all Chinese.
And thanks everybody for info on Chinese Air Force, but allow me to take them with a little bit of skepticism, not as a granted facts, ok? :)
By: Blitzo
- 2nd July 2011 at 09:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Exactly! This is my point.
The goal of J-11B is not to be better than J-11 (and in my opinion it is not) but to be all Chinese.
What aspects of J-11B, in your opinion makes it inferior to J-11(A)? :confused:
And thanks everybody for info on Chinese Air Force, but allow me to take them with a little bit of skepticism, not as a granted facts, ok? :)
Of course, it's your opinion -- but imho there are certain "facts" (some of which could change over time) that one must take for granted if one is to properly talk about the PLAAF (like J-11B's advancements over J-11A, maturation of WS-10A engines, and the fact that J-20 is definitely not a mock up).
New
Posts: 2,040
By: Y-20 Bacon
- 10th September 2013 at 00:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This is a thread about the differences between J-11B and Su-35S. It's a small step to start talking about a similar rumored SAC project which is more suitable to compare with Su-35S.
A few "off topic" posts will occur in every thread and in this one it was hardly derailing the topic (well now it is), seeing as it was fairly relevant to the title. No big deal.
seems like more and more so Su-35 sale to China is legit lol
so wouldn't this threaten a supposed SAC project that's the similar to the Su-35?
or perhaps the SAC project is an Su-35 clone?
By: Fedaykin
- 10th September 2013 at 23:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I must admit the recent generation of Chinese holographic HUD looks rather similar to the one fitted to the F-16 from Block 40/42. Not saying it is a slavish copy but I do wonder if they have at least had a look at it.
What do you guys think?
New
Posts: 8,850
By: MSphere
- 11th September 2013 at 09:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep, looks pretty much a copy of the GEC-Marconi design.
Wonder what the small piece of glass behind the large screen is for?
By: Fedaykin
- 11th September 2013 at 12:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have been pondering how the Chinese might of got their hands on a GEC-Marconi holographic HUD. It was designed to allow projection of FliR imagery from the LANTIRN pod on the F-16 and they started testing in 1982. That would bring it right into the time period when the US and UK were working with China on various projects but in particular the Super-7 and F-7S Sabre II. Maybe they were given at least technical details maybe even a few examples to look at then.
New
Posts: 480
By: Goldust
- 11th September 2013 at 16:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have been pondering how the Chinese might of got their hands on a GEC-Marconi holographic HUD. It was designed to allow projection of FliR imagery from the LANTIRN pod on the F-16 and they started testing in 1982. That would bring it right into the time period when the US and UK were working with China on various projects but in particular the Super-7 and F-7S Sabre II. Maybe they were given at least technical details maybe even a few examples to look at then.
Maybe. But chances are the Chinese developed it themselves. It's not like it's UFO technology :rolleyes:
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 30th June 2011 at 22:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, more or less. Building and J-7 upgrades, building and J-8 upgrades, JH-7/A, J-10, Flanker experience and eventually building their own etc...
You still have to do your own research and tests even if you're building off a known airframe, especially if no one else is there to help you.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at -- are you implying that the Chinese industry had no foreign help (as opposed to other countries in the region) therefore their progress we see now is either A: unexpected, B: faked, C: stolen?
I think it might confuse you even more when it gets into service around 2018 :p
Heard of ARJ-21 and COMAC 919? But it's true that the whole chinese aerospace industry is not suited for building larger transport aircraft.
Posts: 805
By: Multirole - 1st July 2011 at 02:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's because those country's aviation industries suck, being too dependent on imports.
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 1st July 2011 at 06:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@Corran
First of all HELLO here on borad, but second ...
Come on ... YES, we don't have much realiable information of the individual avionics fit, but we know for sure it has a new radar, new cockpit with MFD's + HUD, several other items and most of all from block 02 on it is powered by the WS-10A Thaihang. Honestly I can't believe that You still doubt that since there are so many Chinese reports on that, we have high resolution photos - maybe not that clear as we all wish - but surely good enough to say for sure it's a new engine.
At the moment there are at least four operational regiments flying already with these new birds or just under conversion ... and they are surely not simply painted AL-31F's.
As such to deny these changes and esp. the new powerplant would be plain stupid.
Besides that, the one with both engine with that "larger diameter + modified engine bay" (IMO not necessary different, since the TH was developed to fit the standard bay), that was the prototypes WS-10 not to confuse with the serial WS-10A !
Then again You seem to ignore the latest photos & reports - maybe You are bettere familiar with the scene on Russian aviation but not on Chinese !? You are correct that the first and second prototype flew with the AL-31F, but the latest - the grey one - is clearly powered by the same engine like all J-11B, BH, BS & BSH are powered. Again - and I'm surprised too - but You should believe that "crazy idea" even if You don't want to !
As such ... and that again seems to prove the other reports, the PLAAF and PLANAF together with SAC are quite confident enough in that engine.
and finally ...
Again that might be Your conclusion even if already known that the TH is not to a minimum based on the AL-31F but related to the CFM-56's core ...
Deino
Posts: 132
By: Corran - 1st July 2011 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
True, but what is important is that those elements are Chinese made, and not necessarily better than Russian. And this is a big win for them as they developed capabilities produce aircrafts on their own.
But doesn't prove that the engine is ready to be used in operational frontline units. For sure Chinese have some umber of experimental Flankers powered by WS-10 (including at least one with canards and folding wings).
Ok, I will be very happy if you help me to extend my knowledge. Four operational regiments mean that there should be around 100 aircrafts + even more for OCU. This is bold claim, how can you confirm the existence of over 100 J-11B? How long it took to manufacture them?
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 1st July 2011 at 09:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok, its all boils down to this:
If China are able to produce its own WS-10 fighter engine without importing any spares parts, then good for China.
Now if the eninges is as reliable and have the same fuel consumption as AL-31F or not.. Its not that important.
Chinese Aviation industry have to start somewhere just like everybody else.
And China has shown the ability to improve its product in the past, so well done!
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 1st July 2011 at 10:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As far what I know the J-11B was manufactured in 4 lots ...
in 2008:
Lot 00 - 20 J-11B - 1st Division (1st Regiment at Anshan)
until then all produced J-11B had to be re-engined again to the AL-31F because of quality issues of the TH. Of special note is that these were in one point general a problem regarding their operation / service life and second - that's why we've seen several engine-less J-11B's and BS' standing around at SAC for a while - because of a much higher than anticipated rate of parts not reaching the required quality ... as such Shenyang liming wasn't able to deliver as many WS-10A as required for the new figthers. These problems were reportedly solved by late 2009 and from 2010 production is again on a high level:
in 2010:
Lot 01 - 20 J-11B - 30th Division (88th Regiment at Yingchengzi or 89th Regiment at Datong-Pulandian) + 4 J-11BS trainers
Lot 02 - 20 J-11B - 19th Division (56th Regiment Zhengzhou) + 4 J-11BS
Lot 03 - 20 J-11B 8th PLANAF Division (24th Regiment at Jialaishi) + 4 J-11BS
in 2011:
Lot 04 - 20 J-11B 37th Division (originally they were thought to go to the 6th 6th Division, 16th Regiment at Lintao) + 4 J-11BS
You might be correct that actually not all units have reached their full complement of 24 aircraft but at least these units have been confirmed with TH-powered J-11B/BS and since (at least IMO) it doen't make sense to fly two different types engines within one unit, it could be assumed that they finally will be re-equipped with only TH-powered ones.
Deino
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 1st July 2011 at 12:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
@ Corran, if you're new to the PLAAF I suggest huitong's site: http://cnair.top81.cn/index.html
There are some fairly comprehensive (if a few outdated) write ups on most of the PLAAF's past, current and future aircraft. Unfortunately there is nothing near officially released info on things like the number of J-11Bs in service, readiness of WS-10 or what the role of J-20 is etc, but we can extrapolate from pictures and credible accounts on chinese BBS
Posts: 132
By: Corran - 2nd July 2011 at 08:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Exactly! This is my point.
The goal of J-11B is not to be better than J-11 (and in my opinion it is not) but to be all Chinese.
And thanks everybody for info on Chinese Air Force, but allow me to take them with a little bit of skepticism, not as a granted facts, ok? :)
Posts: 805
By: Multirole - 2nd July 2011 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Why would those two goals be mutually exclusive?
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 2nd July 2011 at 09:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What aspects of J-11B, in your opinion makes it inferior to J-11(A)? :confused:
Of course, it's your opinion -- but imho there are certain "facts" (some of which could change over time) that one must take for granted if one is to properly talk about the PLAAF (like J-11B's advancements over J-11A, maturation of WS-10A engines, and the fact that J-20 is definitely not a mock up).
Posts: 2,040
By: Y-20 Bacon - 10th September 2013 at 00:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://europe.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2013-03/25/content_16344333.htm
seems like more and more so Su-35 sale to China is legit lol
so wouldn't this threaten a supposed SAC project that's the similar to the Su-35?
or perhaps the SAC project is an Su-35 clone?
Posts: 2,814
By: Levsha - 10th September 2013 at 14:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Did you check the date of that newspaper article, Bacon?
Posts: 480
By: Goldust - 10th September 2013 at 15:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
J-11B HUD. This is the same one on J-20, J-31, J-10B. It differs from Su-35's HUD in both color and shape and size.
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By: MSphere - 10th September 2013 at 23:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
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By: Fedaykin - 10th September 2013 at 23:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I must admit the recent generation of Chinese holographic HUD looks rather similar to the one fitted to the F-16 from Block 40/42. Not saying it is a slavish copy but I do wonder if they have at least had a look at it.
What do you guys think?
Posts: 8,850
By: MSphere - 11th September 2013 at 09:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep, looks pretty much a copy of the GEC-Marconi design.
Wonder what the small piece of glass behind the large screen is for?
Posts: 5,267
By: Fedaykin - 11th September 2013 at 12:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have been pondering how the Chinese might of got their hands on a GEC-Marconi holographic HUD. It was designed to allow projection of FliR imagery from the LANTIRN pod on the F-16 and they started testing in 1982. That would bring it right into the time period when the US and UK were working with China on various projects but in particular the Super-7 and F-7S Sabre II. Maybe they were given at least technical details maybe even a few examples to look at then.
Posts: 480
By: Goldust - 11th September 2013 at 16:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe. But chances are the Chinese developed it themselves. It's not like it's UFO technology :rolleyes:
Posts: 4,951
By: MadRat - 12th September 2013 at 01:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
UV visor. Doubles as the rear screen deflector for the image. :)
Posts: 194
By: blackadam - 7th November 2013 at 01:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Su-30MKI vs J-16
Su-35S vs J-11B
Who would will win ?