By: Rii
- 6th February 2013 at 06:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I could see some advantages to upgrade South Korea's current fleet of F-15's. Yet, to spend so much on New Built Aircraft seems like a waste. Especially, as China and Russia continue to progress with their 5th Generation Fighters.
And yet both China and Russia (and India for that matter) will likely be building Flankers into the early 2020s...
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 06:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And yet both China and Russia (and India for that matter) will likely be building Flankers into the early 2020s...
Russia is only building a small number of Su-35's and China is quickly progressing to the J-10 and developing 5th Generation Types. (i.e. J-20, J-31, etc.)
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By: Rii
- 6th February 2013 at 06:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia is only building a small number of Su-35's and China is quickly progressing to the J-10 and developing 5th Generation Types. (i.e. J-20, J-31, etc.)
I don't think 100 Su-35s and 150 Su-34s qualifies as a small number, plus new-build Su-33s...
China's J-15 and J-16 Flanker variants are also yet to enter serial production.
As for Korea, it is also developing a fifth-gen type. Why would Korea would want to induct F-35 in 2020 when they are developing their own VLO fighter in the same thrust class to enter service barely a half-decade later?
By: haavarla
- 6th February 2013 at 06:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
U means Su-30SM, not Su-33?
The Sharpening continous on all the 4th Gen platform in Russia. Just as we see in the west. Newer and better systems to close the gap up to 5th gen jets.
The Bars upgrade and AESA at a later stage is interesting news! :)
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 06:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think 100 Su-35s and 150 Su-34s qualifies as a small number, plus the new -build Su-33s...
China's J-15 and J-16 Flanker variants are also yet to enter serial production.
As for Korea, it is also developing a fifth-gen type. Why would Korea would want to induct F-35 in 2020 when they are developing their own VLO fighter in the same weight class to enter service five years later?
Last I read Russia had a firm order for 50 Su-35's and no export orders for the type. As for China and the Flanker we can expect to see a small number over the next few years for the PLAAF and PLAN. Yet, nothing on a large scale. Then you could add a couple dozen more J-15's for it's New Aircraft Carrier. Nonetheless, when all is said and done. The Flanker clearly on it's way out. As Russia and China focus more and more on 5th Generation Fighters.
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By: Rii
- 6th February 2013 at 06:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
U means Su-30SM, not Su-33?
I was under the impression that there was a plan to produce updated Su-33s for Kuznetzov as well as MiG-29Ks?
Last I read Russia had a firm order for 50 Su-35's and no export orders for the type.
Originally 48 now 96 I believe; I guess someone figured out that T-50 wasn't going to be entering full production in 2015 or whatever the original date was.
As for China and the Flanker we can expect to see a small number over the next few years for the PLAAF and PLAN. Yet, nothing on a large scale.
No, just as many as Shenyang can produce.
Nonetheless, when all is said and done. The Flanker clearly on it's way out.
There are more Flankers on the order books than any other platform bar F-35. 500 yet to roll off the lines at least. On its way out indeed.
By: TR1
- 6th February 2013 at 07:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indeed, on the way out with hundreds more to produced this decade (for both Russia AND China each, I suspect, not counting export orders, quite a few of which are likely), is a strange characterization to say the least.
Hell even India has many Flankers that it will produce this decade.
@ Rii; no new build Su-33s, but there have been 60 Su-30SM ordered to date.
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 07:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was under the impression that there was a plan to produce updated Su-33s for Kuznetzov as well as MiG-29Ks?
Originally 48 now 96 I believe; I guess someone figured out that T-50 wasn't going to be entering full production in 2015 or whatever the original date was.
No, just as many as Shenyang can produce.
There are more Flankers on the order books than any other platform bar F-35. 500 yet to roll off the lines at least. On its way out indeed.
Respectfully, you're mistaken.....
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 07:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indeed, on the way out with hundreds more to produced this decade, is a strange characterization to say the least.
What hundreds???? Russia ordered under 100 Su-35's and no more are likely. While China on the other will procure a couple dozen J-15's for it's sole Aircraft Carrier. Then you may see a small number in the next few years for attrition for examples lost in PLAAF and PLAN Service.
Hardly "hundreds" and the whole point is the numbers are on the decrease every year. Unless you believe Russia and China are going to give up on their 5th Generation Fighter Programs and go back to buying Flankers!:rolleyes:
By: TR1
- 6th February 2013 at 07:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do you have issues counting?
100 Su-35, so far.
60 Su-30SM, so far.
140 Su-34, so far.
This is Russia alone, for the major types.
China spent a long time working out domestic powerplant and subsystems for the J-11, what, you think they will only make a dozen more and stop?
Please. Between the J-11 and the two seater/J-16, and the J-33, I am betting China has many Flankers coming this decade.
Many old birds to replace, and the J-20 won't be in serial production for many years.
This is reality Scooter, sorry.
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By: Rii
- 6th February 2013 at 07:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Respectfully, you're mistaken.....
Possibly on certain specifics, I'm no expert on any of the Air Forces in question. But the force of the broader point remains: Flanker derivatives will remain in full production in all three producing nations at least until the decade is out, and probably for a couple years beyond that. The platform has a long and healthy life ahead of it as its range, payload (both quantity and flexibility), large radar aperture, and -- in many cases -- dual seat characteristics are qualities that remain useful even in the brave new world of VLO*. Operating in concert with AEW&C and VLO platforms such as AMCA, T-50 and UCAVs, Flankers will be on the front lines for decades to come.
* And pertinent to the topic these qualities are also shared by the F-15SA/SEs being contemplated for Korea, even if the base airframe is kinematially rather less impressive.
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 07:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do you have issues counting?
100 Su-35, so far.
60 Su-30SM, so far.
140 Su-34, so far.
This is Russia alone, for the major types.
China spent a long time working out domestic powerplant and subsystems for the J-11, what, you think they will only make a dozen more and stop?
Please. Between the J-11 and the two seater/J-16, and the J-33, I am betting China has many Flankers coming this decade.
Many old birds to replace, and the J-20 won't be in serial production for many years.
This is reality Scooter, sorry.
First, I have serious doubts about orders from Russia. As it's long on promises and short on fact. Regardless, so you believe production of the Flanker Series is going to go up in the coming next decade or two. Is that correct????
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 07:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Possibly on certain specifics, I'm no expert on any of the Air Forces in question. But the force of the broader point remains: Flanker derivatives will remain in full production in all three producing nations at least until the decade is out, and probably for a couple years beyond that. The platform has a long and healthy life ahead of it as its range, payload (both quantity and flexibility), large radar aperture, and -- in many cases -- dual seat characteristics are qualities that remain useful even in the brave new world of VLO. Operating in concert with VLO platforms such as AMCA, T-50 and UCAVs, Flankers will be on the front lines for decades to come.
The Flanker series will be in limited production for the next decade. Then it will start to be replaced by 5th Generation Types at the beginning of the next decade. Hardly, something you need to be an expert in to predict.
By: TR1
- 6th February 2013 at 07:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
First, I have serious doubts about orders from Russia. As it's long on promises and short on fact. Regardless, so you believe production of the Flanker Series is going to go up in the coming next decade or two. Is that correct????
Your doubts are irrelevant.
Those orders are factual. More options are likely, particularly for Su-30, and for Su-34 special purpose birds.
The only one non-contracted is the second 48 Su-35 batch, but the gov made it clear that order will be made.
After these orders are complete, we will see Flanker production wind down in Russia.
By: TR1
- 6th February 2013 at 07:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Flanker series will be in limited production for the next decade. Then it will start to be replaced by 5th Generation Types at the beginning of the next decade. Hardly, something you need to be an expert in to predict.
More Flankers will be made this decade than any aircraft save probably F-35.
Limited? lol.
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 07:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your doubts are irrelevant.
Those orders are factual. More options are likely, particularly for Su-30, and for Su-34 special purpose birds.
The only one non-contracted is the second 48 Su-35 batch, but the gov made it clear that order will be made.
After these orders are complete, we will see Flanker production wind down in Russia.
Factual......We are talking about Russians??? Is that like the delivery date of the Vikramaditya or the Fleet of 5-6 Aircraft Carriers it was going to build in the next decade. Hell, if I had a dollar for every promise and contract signed in Russia that was fact. I would be a very rich man.;)
By: TR1
- 6th February 2013 at 07:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's one way to admit you are wrong.
I would ask if you are coming from any base of understanding regarding the actual contract details, or the production tempos of NAPO/Irkut/Komsomolsk, but I think I know the answer to that.
Also, nobody in Russian mil or gov said 5-6 carriers would be built this decade.
Repeating that myth doesn't help you out. Not to mention carriers are utterly irrelevant to Flanker production.
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Posts: 3,381
By: Rii
- 6th February 2013 at 07:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
First, I have serious doubts about orders from Russia. As it's long on promises and short on fact.
Personally, I too have my doubts that Russia's production lines can meet the orders stipulated in the given timeframes. But certainly RuAF's Flanker orders are far more credible than USAFs two million F-35s produced at $5 a pop, lol.
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By: Anonymous
- 6th February 2013 at 08:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's one way to admit you are wrong.
I would ask if you are coming from any base of understanding regarding the actual contract details, or the production tempos of NAPO/Irkut/Komsomolsk, but I think I know the answer to that.
Also, nobody in Russian mil or gov said 5-6 carriers would be built this decade.
Repeating that myth doesn't help you out. Not to mention carriers are utterly irrelevant to Flanker production.
Well, people believe what they want. You can believe the Russian Propaganda if you like.
As to admitting I am wrong. All I was saying was Flanker Production will decrease over the next decade. As it is replaced by more modern 5th Generation Types. I hardly see anything in that statement as being wrong or not factual.
By: TR1
- 6th February 2013 at 08:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Flanker production in Russia is rising this decade, so yeah, you were wrong.
Compare the number of (mostly) export Flankers produced by Irkut and KnAAPO yearly in the 2000s, and the total Su-34 production @ NAPO + Su-35 @ KnAAPO + Su-30SM @ Irkut (not even going to include exports here)
It is clearly going up, especially compared to end of the 2000s.
As to your cute little propoganda jib, yeah, I guess signed, paid contracts are just TEH Russian propoganda11!!!. Nevermind the actual birds coming off the three big production centers, and the increasing trend to these numbers. I suspect you think suddenly production will stall, and the contracts cancelled, right?
Your inability to admit you have no basis for your claims, is as always, amusing.
There are beliefs, and there is closing your eyes and ears and screaming "LALALAL" like you are doing right now.
Are there 600 Raptors flying in your beliefs as well?
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 6th February 2013 at 06:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And yet both China and Russia (and India for that matter) will likely be building Flankers into the early 2020s...
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 06:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Russia is only building a small number of Su-35's and China is quickly progressing to the J-10 and developing 5th Generation Types. (i.e. J-20, J-31, etc.)
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 6th February 2013 at 06:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think 100 Su-35s and 150 Su-34s qualifies as a small number, plus new-build Su-33s...
China's J-15 and J-16 Flanker variants are also yet to enter serial production.
As for Korea, it is also developing a fifth-gen type. Why would Korea would want to induct F-35 in 2020 when they are developing their own VLO fighter in the same thrust class to enter service barely a half-decade later?
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 6th February 2013 at 06:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
U means Su-30SM, not Su-33?
The Sharpening continous on all the 4th Gen platform in Russia. Just as we see in the west. Newer and better systems to close the gap up to 5th gen jets.
The Bars upgrade and AESA at a later stage is interesting news! :)
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 06:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Last I read Russia had a firm order for 50 Su-35's and no export orders for the type. As for China and the Flanker we can expect to see a small number over the next few years for the PLAAF and PLAN. Yet, nothing on a large scale. Then you could add a couple dozen more J-15's for it's New Aircraft Carrier. Nonetheless, when all is said and done. The Flanker clearly on it's way out. As Russia and China focus more and more on 5th Generation Fighters.
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 6th February 2013 at 06:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was under the impression that there was a plan to produce updated Su-33s for Kuznetzov as well as MiG-29Ks?
Originally 48 now 96 I believe; I guess someone figured out that T-50 wasn't going to be entering full production in 2015 or whatever the original date was.
No, just as many as Shenyang can produce.
There are more Flankers on the order books than any other platform bar F-35. 500 yet to roll off the lines at least. On its way out indeed.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th February 2013 at 07:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indeed, on the way out with hundreds more to produced this decade (for both Russia AND China each, I suspect, not counting export orders, quite a few of which are likely), is a strange characterization to say the least.
Hell even India has many Flankers that it will produce this decade.
@ Rii; no new build Su-33s, but there have been 60 Su-30SM ordered to date.
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 07:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Respectfully, you're mistaken.....
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 07:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What hundreds???? Russia ordered under 100 Su-35's and no more are likely. While China on the other will procure a couple dozen J-15's for it's sole Aircraft Carrier. Then you may see a small number in the next few years for attrition for examples lost in PLAAF and PLAN Service.
Hardly "hundreds" and the whole point is the numbers are on the decrease every year. Unless you believe Russia and China are going to give up on their 5th Generation Fighter Programs and go back to buying Flankers!:rolleyes:
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th February 2013 at 07:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do you have issues counting?
100 Su-35, so far.
60 Su-30SM, so far.
140 Su-34, so far.
This is Russia alone, for the major types.
China spent a long time working out domestic powerplant and subsystems for the J-11, what, you think they will only make a dozen more and stop?
Please. Between the J-11 and the two seater/J-16, and the J-33, I am betting China has many Flankers coming this decade.
Many old birds to replace, and the J-20 won't be in serial production for many years.
This is reality Scooter, sorry.
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 6th February 2013 at 07:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Possibly on certain specifics, I'm no expert on any of the Air Forces in question. But the force of the broader point remains: Flanker derivatives will remain in full production in all three producing nations at least until the decade is out, and probably for a couple years beyond that. The platform has a long and healthy life ahead of it as its range, payload (both quantity and flexibility), large radar aperture, and -- in many cases -- dual seat characteristics are qualities that remain useful even in the brave new world of VLO*. Operating in concert with AEW&C and VLO platforms such as AMCA, T-50 and UCAVs, Flankers will be on the front lines for decades to come.
* And pertinent to the topic these qualities are also shared by the F-15SA/SEs being contemplated for Korea, even if the base airframe is kinematially rather less impressive.
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 07:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
First, I have serious doubts about orders from Russia. As it's long on promises and short on fact. Regardless, so you believe production of the Flanker Series is going to go up in the coming next decade or two. Is that correct????
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 07:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Flanker series will be in limited production for the next decade. Then it will start to be replaced by 5th Generation Types at the beginning of the next decade. Hardly, something you need to be an expert in to predict.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th February 2013 at 07:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Your doubts are irrelevant.
Those orders are factual. More options are likely, particularly for Su-30, and for Su-34 special purpose birds.
The only one non-contracted is the second 48 Su-35 batch, but the gov made it clear that order will be made.
After these orders are complete, we will see Flanker production wind down in Russia.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th February 2013 at 07:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
More Flankers will be made this decade than any aircraft save probably F-35.
Limited? lol.
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 07:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Factual......We are talking about Russians??? Is that like the delivery date of the Vikramaditya or the Fleet of 5-6 Aircraft Carriers it was going to build in the next decade. Hell, if I had a dollar for every promise and contract signed in Russia that was fact. I would be a very rich man.;)
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th February 2013 at 07:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's one way to admit you are wrong.
I would ask if you are coming from any base of understanding regarding the actual contract details, or the production tempos of NAPO/Irkut/Komsomolsk, but I think I know the answer to that.
Also, nobody in Russian mil or gov said 5-6 carriers would be built this decade.
Repeating that myth doesn't help you out. Not to mention carriers are utterly irrelevant to Flanker production.
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 6th February 2013 at 07:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Personally, I too have my doubts that Russia's production lines can meet the orders stipulated in the given timeframes. But certainly RuAF's Flanker orders are far more credible than USAFs two million F-35s produced at $5 a pop, lol.
By: Anonymous - 6th February 2013 at 08:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, people believe what they want. You can believe the Russian Propaganda if you like.
As to admitting I am wrong. All I was saying was Flanker Production will decrease over the next decade. As it is replaced by more modern 5th Generation Types. I hardly see anything in that statement as being wrong or not factual.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 6th February 2013 at 08:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Flanker production in Russia is rising this decade, so yeah, you were wrong.
Compare the number of (mostly) export Flankers produced by Irkut and KnAAPO yearly in the 2000s, and the total Su-34 production @ NAPO + Su-35 @ KnAAPO + Su-30SM @ Irkut (not even going to include exports here)
It is clearly going up, especially compared to end of the 2000s.
As to your cute little propoganda jib, yeah, I guess signed, paid contracts are just TEH Russian propoganda11!!!. Nevermind the actual birds coming off the three big production centers, and the increasing trend to these numbers. I suspect you think suddenly production will stall, and the contracts cancelled, right?
Your inability to admit you have no basis for your claims, is as always, amusing.
There are beliefs, and there is closing your eyes and ears and screaming "LALALAL" like you are doing right now.
Are there 600 Raptors flying in your beliefs as well?