MiG-25 vs F-4 in Iran-Iraq war

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11 years 1 month

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the small iranian attack on the airbase from the beginning of the war came from Syria ...

...

Are you claiming the Iranians launched the H3 attack from Syria?
More info please. Why didn't Saddam ever claim this?

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Iraq did claim that (and by then relations between Iraq-Syria deteriorated massively, other attacks Iraq blamed on syria were the terrorist attack on the iraqi embassy in beirut, and Iraq was arming the lebanese christian militias against syria etc...).

also Iraq shot down some Syrian planes intruding into Iraq during this period too. AFAIK the "attack" was done by a couple of F4s of which one was shot down on egress, no damage was done to the airbase. It was half baked attempt by Iran to open a "second front" against Iraq... it didn't go far as the syrians backed out quickly, having been kept busy by what's happening in lebanon.

but the incident itself was just a small "incursion" and the Iraqis at the time didn't make a huge fuss about it as it was hardly an important "attack"... they had no idea that some salt and spice would be added to this skirmish 30 years later and published as some sort of massive daring raid in the english language :D especially not on an outlying operational training / logistics base. In fact when I asked my father in law about this some years ago, it took him a bit of time to recollect the events (and called up some of his old colleagues first to remember it, as it was not a major attack, more of a buzzing fly by by the 2 F4s when the AAA opened up they immediately turned around and flew away, one being hit on egress - major "political" incident at the time, but hardly an important military one)... when I showed him what was published by iranians about it, he cracked up laughing.

anyway, regarding F4 vs MiG25 combat, AFAIK there was probably no air to air incidents involving these 2, except for maybe an RF4E being shot down by MiG25PDS. The Iraqi MiG25RBS were invariably engaged by Iranian F14s or I-HAWK SAMs.

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In fact the attack of the F 4E Phantom II against the three bases H 3 ( Main, Southwest and Northwest) in 1981 became a patriotic Iranian movie which certainly should be considered more as propaganda than the likely as reality of the event. The attack on H 3 was confirmed by Iraq and on their version of the attack caused none significant damage to facilities or aircraft packed in this Air Base.

In a war of more than 8 years in which both countries have lost more than 1 million lives the H 3 attack in 1981 could have been forgotten, put to Iran this had a very important meaning.

Perhaps the question would be what the Iranians assumed that it would be very important to achieve with this attack against H 3 Air Bases that Iran did carry out an attack in which F 4E Phantom II had to fly over Turkey's border with Iraq and using air refueling from B 707 that came from Turkey airspace and then penetrate the border of Syria with Iraq to attack H 3?

Despite not having understood a single word on Youtube there are an interview with the leader of the H 3 attack in 1981 during a ceremony on the celebration of the anniversary of the attack against H 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAWpOtcOAvA

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H3 attack came from Syrian bases?

I am sorry, need more information for this to be a credible account of H3 attack.

You are saying 2 x F-4s came from Syria and 1 was shot down on regress?

Sheytanelkebir says: "the Iraqis at the time didn't make a huge fuss about it ".
But Iran's F4s flying out of Syria would be a direct act of war from Syria. How could Iraq not make a fuss about it?

Where in Syria did the F4s base themselves?
How could Iran transfer F4s to Syria (in 1981) withough the world knowing?
Why no-one ever mentioned about Iran's F4s present and flying in Syria?
Where in Syria did the surviving Jet go to?
Why didn't the Iranian dissidents (including some fighter pilots) ever reveal this?

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at the time Iraq and Syria were already near a state of war... and iraqi planes also shot down intruding syrian aircraft around this period. the syrians/iranians afterwards resorted to "joint" acts like this http://www.nytimes.com/1981/12/16/world/bomb-wrecks-iraqi-embassy-in-beirut.html which you can also consider to be acts of war... but in practice neither the iraqis nor syrians opened a new "front".

this was part of the iranian effort to open a new front... but the syrians were soon busy with matters closer to the heartland, a breakdown in lebanon, uprising in hamaa etc... and Iraq could ill afford to open a second front... as if the first one wasn't big enough already!

AFAIK the iranian planes travelled to syria by shadowing iranian airliners along civilian flight routes i.e. overflying turkey.

lots of small stuff like this happened throughout the war... there was even a case of an Iraqi MiG25RB landing in UAE :D and although iran attacked gulf shipping regularly, it didnt cause an "open war" with the GCC states, nor did the Iraqi AF shooting down the plane of the algerian foreign minister cause a war either...

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Like every story with the claim of credibility it will have some facts. From Täbris to Palmyra (the claimed alternate) it is ~ 900 km distance and from there to H-3 it is ~220 km or a round-trip of ~ 2300 km and arial refuelling support. From the Iraqi side we learned that the raid was never up to the numbers claimed by the Iranians and came from Syria. I have no problem to accept that. Two is the minimum number given by the Iraqis, but we have to keep in mind that they have an intrest to downplay that event for obvious reasons. If it were some more attackers than the claimed pair by the Iraqi side did not matter really. The todays special relationship of Syria and Iran in mind we will not learn the details of that for some time. Maybe the coming power-change in Syria will shed some light about that very event.

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it was a politically oriented attack, since H3 did not have any of the strategic aircraft the Iranians claimed... All the planes (MiG25s, Tupolev 16, Tupolev 22 etc... they claim to have "destroyed" were in Tammuz AB... reachable by F4 phantoms from Iran without aerial refueling... yet the airbase was never attacked).

Shuaiba air base or qalat sukar AB were within 40km of the Iranian border and operated several combat squadrons day by day...

the aim may have been to force the iraqis to beef up their defences on the west thereby weakening their position in the east facing Iran... but Iraq's robust reply to syria (and shooting down syrian planes near the border) detered the syrians from allowing any more such "direct" adventures... from then on the proxy war between the iraqi and syrian baath parties was played out bloodily in lebanon...

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By the way the doctor at H-3 could have been at just one of three airfields of that cluster during that very attack. When sirens started none will go outside to watch the attack except those tasked with AD or caught in the open. His info about the number of attackers maybe from hearsay only. I have no problem to accept that the very Iranian air-attack was a political one and the inflicted military damage was limited. By the way the Iranian F-4s are equipped with bomb-cameras/videos to allow a damage assesment for the debrief of the mission similar the Israeli ones in 1973. Sofar I have not seen a single picture of that to verify the claim of the inflicted damage from that very attack. Even the Iranians had not missed that opportunity to bolster their claims by showing that to the public.

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2000 km of shadowing airliners?

Iranian F4s landing in Syria and US and Israel not knowing?

HMMM - I am sorry. I find it a bit hard to convince myself.

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Geelongcat - Israelis might have turned a blind eye to this sort of thing.

Both Israel and US was supplying Iran with arms - Israel did it because at the time Saddam's Iraq was more of a threat to Israel than Iran.

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The F 4E Phantom II from Iran had been using an Air Base our even some airfield from Syria it would be an act of war against Iraq, and with all the problems that Syria had in Lebanon in 1981 with Israel I only imagine it would be very unlikely the Syria wage war against Iraq .

Besides than Syria and Iraq were close with Soviet Union and even if there were no aircraft's and personnel from Soviet Union in one of this three bases of H 3 I can not believe that Soviet Union did not warn Iraq about any operation of F 4E Phantom II from Iran in Syria.

The Soviet Union would have no dividend with a conflict between Syria and Iraq, in fact it could even depart Iraq from the Soviet Union, however to discard the hypothesis that the F 4E Phantom II were refueled in any airfield from Syria, the other alternative would be Iran's version about those F 4E Phantom II were refueled in the air by a tanker B 707 from Iran coming from Turkey which is a NATO member ...

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I agree maurobaggio.

I just dont see Iran's F4s basing themselves in Syrian Air Fields and the USA, The Soviets and Israelis not knowing or conspiring to be quiet.

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2000 km of shadowing airliners?

Iranian F4s landing in Syria and US and Israel not knowing?

HMMM - I am sorry. I find it a bit hard to convince myself.

Maybe you have realized it was about the leg over Turkey only. Today we see Iranian transports passing over Turkey to Syria and Europe f.e. every day. There are international air-routes running over Turkey used by Russia, Iran and all the other for civilian and military flights. Nothing different in 1981. Turkey got/get a flight plan and did/do control most of that flights via transponder only. The relationship between Turkey and Iran was never bad as long the Iran kept the national Kurds under control. Did you realize that that none claimed the Iranian F-4s be it Ds or Es landed in Syria. That was just a worst case option. Just some tanker/transports used for refuel and shadowing purposes landed in Damascus international to fulfill the given flight-plan. Just that were under constant control via their transponder. The USA and Israel may have learned about that Iranian raid in advance. At that time it was not against their national intrests.

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The F 4E Phantom II from Iran had been using an Air Base our even some airfield from Syria it would be an act of war against Iraq, and with all the problems that Syria had in Lebanon in 1981 with Israel I only imagine it would be very unlikely the Syria wage war against Iraq .

Besides than Syria and Iraq were close with Soviet Union and even if there were no aircraft's and personnel from Soviet Union in one of this three bases of H 3 I can not believe that Soviet Union did not warn Iraq about any operation of F 4E Phantom II from Iran in Syria.

The Soviet Union would have no dividend with a conflict between Syria and Iraq, in fact it could even depart Iraq from the Soviet Union, however to discard the hypothesis that the F 4E Phantom II were refueled in any airfield from Syria, the other alternative would be Iran's version about those F 4E Phantom II were refueled in the air by a tanker B 707 from Iran coming from Turkey which is a NATO member ...

At that time-scale the Iraq was the second choise as an ally for the SU. After the loss of Egypt Syria was the strategic mainstay for the Mediteranian. A further main intrest of the SU was to take over the position of the USA in the Iran with their engagement in Afghanistan in mind. Saddam was never intrested to become a real proxy of the SU. At that time scale non had a realistic idea about the political future of the Iran. Today Russia is coming close to the intended relationship with Iran and does not do much to restore it in the Iraq to the former level at least.

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Even though the Soviet Union had not positioned its MiG 25RB/PD on H 3 Main , that Air Base would be ideal to receive MiG 25RB/PDS from Iraq in 1981, since these were delivered shortly before, and how the MiG 25 were considered extremely complex to operate, requiring a long training from the pilots, H 3 would be reasonable choice once its out of reach of the Iran Air Force with its F 14A Tomcat equipped with AIM 54A Phoenix missiles, at least the F 14A would refueled by air tanker B 707 from Iran in the middle of Iraqi territory, which would be nearly impossible due Iraq Air Force.

In cases of war were very common install training centers in locations distant from the battlefield, especially for flights units since squadrons in training are considered priority targets, since their elimination as they are not trained would be very more advantageous than after they are prepared for battle. If I'm not totally mistaken, the UK in the beginning of World War II transferred its training centers of new pilots for Canada.

As in 1980 Iraq were receiving large quantities of aircraft: 90 MiG 21, 104 MiG 23 , 48 Su-22M 3K and 24 MiG 25RB/PDS. Therefore the demand for training should be very high, however with the beginning of the Iran / Iraq War it would be quite logical that at least the of H 3 could has become an important training center , even without considering the reasonable hypothesis that the Soviet Union settled their own units in H 3.

If this should be extremely hypothetical, the attack against H 3 for the Iran in April 1981 against those bases of H 3 (Southwest, Main, Northwest) were not hypothetical, as is the fact that according to Iranian attack version with its F 4E Phantom II were supported by three air tankers B 707 that had been flying over Turkey before the rendezvous with F 4E Phantom II and a command aircraft B 747 all from Iran Air Force.

However as in fact the result of the attack can not be confirmed, since the Iran has never showed any image during the attack from the cameras of the F 4E Phantom II , as recalled SENS on your post, the version on the destruction caused by the attack has been very questionable.

However another attack that occurred a few months after the attack in 4 April 1981 against H 3, certainly has left no doubt about the damage inflicted, and this was not executed by Iran, since it had attacked with 4E Phantom II this same target in September 1980 without causing damage , but on 7 June 1981 the F 16A Falcon supported by F 15A Eagle from Israel Air Force reached the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq and destroyed its facility.

Could be the attack on H 3 an operation to divert attention and squads from Iraq Air Force to Northern border of the Iraq, with purpose that the Iraq Air Force should be intensified the patrols on their borders with Turkey and Syria, so this diversion could have open the way for Israel attack the Osirak nuclear reactor through the border with Jordanian and Saudi Arabian?

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Strange that this time there was no question about my claim, or rather my question about something so unusual.

But my doubt about the H 3 attack by Iran in April 1981 and the attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor in Osirak by Israel in June 1981 indeed had been planned jointly by Israel and Iran, once that claim has been found out in Wikipedia site.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e2/Osirak.jpg
The Osirak reactor prior to the Israeli attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

In fact there are in the Wikipedia site a reference to a book in which Israel, Iran and the U.S. held secret meetings with the purpose of destroying the nuclear reactor in Osriak.

Trita Parsi, in the book Treacherous Alliance: The Secret Dealings of Israel, Iran, and the United States, writes that a senior Israeli official met with a representative of the Khomeini regime in France one month prior to the Israeli attack.[48] The source of the assertion is Ari Ben-Menashe, a former Israeli government employee. At the alleged meeting, the Iranians explained details of their 1980 attack on the site, and agreed to let Israeli planes land at an Iranian airfield in Tabriz in the case of an emergency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

Because I have not read the book so I asked about this issue in order that if someone read the book and this there are any mention of the H 3 attack by Iran, since the Iranian version of the attack destroyed two radar stations.

How the F 16A and F 15A had crossed the Iraq territory close from this three bases from the H 3, and because this could be possible that even some Iraqi military personnel from such airfields waved to the Israeli fighters by mistake imagining that they were Iraqis fighter, once in June could be one reasonable possibility that the radar stations close the H 3 were out of operation due to attack on April against H 3.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/IAF_F-16A_Netz_243_CIAF_2004.jpg/800px-IAF_F-16A_Netz_243_CIAF_2004.jpg
Israeli Air Force F-16A Netz 243, aircraft flown by Colonel Ilan Ramon in Operation Babylon.

If there weren't radar coverage in this sector defense from Iraq because the attack on H 3 in April that could allowed the Israel task force to penetrate the Iraqi territory practically at the center of Iraq in Osirak, since due to the war between Iran and Iraq, the defense sector in the region of H 3 was not a priority to be restored.

Instead I try to guess what happened, someone would be kind enough if you read the book to share their knowledge, since a joint operation between the U.S., Israel and Iran in 1981 would be almost impossible.

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Opera was planned before the war between Iraq and Iran started. It was delayed by the earlier arrival of the F-16A/B. That were built for Iran and diverted to Israel. The Israelis were not even pleased learning about the Iranian attack in the Tamuz area afterwards. In response to that the Iraqis bolstered their defence in that area. All the different claims over 30 years later are not serious to stay polite and have the purpose to fill some pockets.

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no such thing happened in H3.

no radars were destroyed by Iran

No massive fighters were based there

Iranians did not disable a single Iraqi Air Base for a single minute during the entire war... let alone Al Waleed (H3 in western parlance) for 3 months! :D

none of that above stuff is in the realm of reality. As I mentioned already, my father in law spent his military service there in the 1980s. It was very quiet and boring years... none of these things happened... they spent most of their time planting trees in the desert and drinking tea...

The Osirak planes did not overfly the area near H3... they flew in from Ar-Ar border post over all uninhabited / unprotected areas until 50km before hitting the reactor. All VERY far away from H3...

The 2 iranian phantoms that tried attacking in 1981 caused no damage at all and egresses BACK to Syria... (one of them was shot down, if memory serves me!). I saw the "wikipedia" entry about this "attack"... quite simply hilarious :D but then all the wikipedia entries about the iran-iraq war are written by iranian fanbois clutching copies of "iranian F14 units in combat" etc...:rolleyes:

The entire thing was part of the "cold war" between Iraq and Syria more than anything... and there were many other incidents in this "cold war" at the time including the later bombing of the Iraqi embassy in beirut, shooting down of syrian fighters coming into Iraqi airspace, and even shooting down some turkish F100F fighter encroaching into Iraqi airspace... That period saw a lot of such "incidents"... none of them were particularly large or serious.

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Al Tuwaitha with the "Osirak" is just ~120 km or 65 nm west from the Iranian border.

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"Upon reaching Iraqi airspace the squadron split up, with two of the F-15s forming close escort to the F-16 squadron, and the remaining F-15s dispersing into Iraqi airspace as a diversion and ready back-up. The attack squadron descended to 30 m over the Iraqi desert, attempting to fly under the radar of the Iraqi defences.[52]"

Source:^ a b c d e f Rafael Eitan, 2003. "The Raid on the Reactor from the Point of View of the Chief of Staff," Israel’s Strike Against the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor 7 June 1981. Jerusalem: Menachem Begin Heritage Cente
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osirak

As I could understand it four F 15A had been dispersed in Iraq airspace from of the six F 15A that were escorting the eight F 16A , while two F 15A with eight F 16A had penetrated at low altitude until the target that was the Osirak reactor in order to avoid the detection by Iraq radars .
If there was radar coverage its four F 15A which would not be flying at low altitude on the route to the Osirak target next to H 3 should have alerted the Iraq Air defenses ?

Note: The Osirak reactor were at the 17 Km or 10 Miles from the Baghdad City, that had been surrounded by several airfields, once in 1981 the Iraq was in war against the Iran and those Air Bases should be in alert against any attack by Iran Air Force.