MiG-25 vs F-4 in Iran-Iraq war

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there were operational radars in the western sector. iran did not destroy a single radar.

these radars cannot detect ultra low flying targets unless its 10-20km away.

israeli attack followed desert route - nukhaib-karbala-baghdad... no ADC there.

iraq used "ground observers" for alert for low level attacks from iran... no such alert stations in west.

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any info of Foxbat kills during the Gulf War ? did they get anything other than a F-18 ?

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It appears that MiG-25 pilots have been credited by the iraqi headquarters after long investigations to validate their claims with 3 kills, there's the well known F/A-18, and another two "coalition" aircraft, but if i even mention them some folks will have a hearth attack so...:)
Also, one MiG-29 pilot was credited with a Tornado kill (as discussed ad nauseaum in another topic). Finally , there were several "damaged" claims that have been credited.

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It appears that MiG-25 pilots have been credited by the iraqi headquarters after long investigations to validate their claims with 3 kills, there's the well known F/A-18, and another two "coalition" aircraft, but if i even mention them some folks will have a hearth attack so...

Credited by who? I am curious because it sounds as if it just hapenned.

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mack8 politely NO TORNADO was lost during GW1 due to combat with a Mig-29, all seven (six RAF one AMI) were last to AAA, SAM or controlled flight into terrain. Please can you and anybody else stop peddling this myth, all the shoot downs were investigated after the war and there is no evidence of enemy fighter involvement. Continuing to push this uncredited myth that is unsupported by evidence is frankly disrespectful to the Tornado crew we lost in that war. :mad:

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mack8 politely NO TORNADO was lost during GW1 due to combat with a Mig-29, all seven (six RAF one AMI) were last to AAA, SAM or controlled flight into terrain. Please can you and anybody else stop peddling this myth, all the shoot downs were investigated after the war and there is no evidence of enemy fighter involvement. Continuing to push this uncredited myth that is unsupported by evidence is frankly disrespectful to the Tornado crew we lost in that war. :mad:

I imagine that it would be almost impossible about the MiG 25 PD from Iraq could be able to intercept: the Tornado ID, F 111E / F, F 15E or even the F 16D equipped with LANTIRN pod from Coalition when they were flying at low altitude following the ground, since the MiG 25 PDS exported by Soviet Union had received the Smerch A radar that lacked the capability to distinguish targets flying at low altitudes.

After the defection of the pilot with a MiG 25P from Soviet Union in 1976 when it landed in Japan, the Soviet Union had replaced the Smerch A by the new SAPHIR 25 that would be able to tracks and attacks targets flying at low altitude as cruiser missiles . However the MiG 25PDS which were exported by the former Soviet Union had received the older Smerch A .

As I mentioned before according to the writer and journalist Tom Cooper that MiG 25 PDS from Soviet Union were based in Iraq since before the war with Iran, the presence of these would be a great threat to the tactic of terrain following at low altitude in attack missions.

As the Iraq had not received the MiG 25 PDS equipped with Sapfir 25 and the MiG 25PD from Soviet Union not long remain in Iraq after the invasion from Kuwait should be almost impossible that Tornado's were shoot down by MiG 25PD from Iraq.

But in 1981 the MiG 25PDS from Soviet Union could be a high challenger for anyone that had planned an attack against the Osirak in Iraq, and that could explain what the Iran wasn't capable destroy Osirak nuclear reactor once the Operation Sword in September 1980 had faille with the F 4E Phantom II .

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It appears that MiG-25 pilots have been credited by the iraqi headquarters after long investigations to validate their claims with 3 kills, there's the well known F/A-18, and another two "coalition" aircraft, but if i even mention them some folks will have a hearth attack so...:)
Also, one MiG-29 pilot was credited with a Tornado kill (as discussed ad nauseaum in another topic). Finally , there were several "damaged" claims that have been credited.

Mack8,

Off topic, but what are those two other Coalition aircraft claimed by MiG25's? I'd be interested to compare them against my loss lists.

I promise to not have a heart attack....

Regards,

Steve

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As I mentioned before according to the writer and journalist Tom Cooper that MiG 25 PDS from Soviet Union were based in Iraq since before the war with Iran, the presence of these would be a great threat to the tactic of terrain following at low altitude in attack missions.

That claim was never confirmed and proven wrong since 2003. ;)

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It seems Iraq got a total of 42 MiG-25s of all variants from August 1981.
The first was sqn 87 with 12 PD at Habbaniyah/Al Taqaddum bolstered by further 10 PDS, when all were converted to PDS till 1983.
The second sqn 96 got 12 RB and the third sqn 97 got 8 PU. Of all MiG-25s a total of 7 was lost to all reasons till 1990.
The first opportunity of Iranian F-4s to run into MiG-25s was from August 1981 at first.

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Steve49,

Yes sure , just bare in mind you won't find them anywhere in "official" sources as those two having being shot down by another fighter, and in case of one , nothing is listed "officially" on the day the shoot-down (or at least damage) supposed to happen.

So in addition to the F-18 shot down by Dawood on the 17th, apparently there is that F-14 supposedly lost to an "optical guidance" SA-2 ( i've never found one of those yet ), but reputable researchers point that the nearest SA-2 was either outside the kill zone or just at the very edge of it, AND there were at least a MiG-29 and a MiG-25 close by which apparently fired against that F-14.

Also there is apparently an USAF F-15C shot down or at least damaged in an ambush on the 30th of january ( or 1st of february...maybe the different dates have to do with the timezones). You will definitely find no mention of such things in "official" records , although at the same date the famous engagement against 2 MiG-25s occurred where the americans fired 10 missiles without hitting any MiG, apparently following them all the way to landing! They were really pissed off that night to take such risks, wonder why.

I can't recall the date now, but there is an USAF F-15C who supposedly lost a portion of the wing during a MiG chase, and of course there is that saudi F-15C lost in an accident (they say ) on the 13th of february, some rumor being that the saudi pilot did not wanted to refuel from a female US tanker crew, so he ran out of fuel! This as far as damaged or lost F-15Cs during that war.

Now i know how the "usual suspects" react to such claims, but just bare in mind this : remember that SECOND F-117 damaged by the serbs? On this very forum it happened, when someone came and said that there was a second F-17 damaged, he was ripped to pieces insulted, branded a liar, the incident branded impossible , the serbs were only just lucky to shot down the first F-117 etc. Then, an OFFICIAL US source confirmed (probably by accident) the second F-117 damaged, and the usual suspects suddenly went "oh wow, did it really happened? Ok, lemme do a FOIA request for more details...hmm, well they say they have 5 documents about it but it's classified..."

So, you never know what might be eventually confirmed in the future.:)

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Oh and to Maurobaggio, i never said a MiG-25PD shot down that Tornado, i said a MiG-29 did.

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Steve49,

Yes sure , just bare in mind you won't find them anywhere in "official" sources as those two having being shot down by another fighter, and in case of one , nothing is listed "officially" on the day the shoot-down (or at least damage) supposed to happen.

So in addition to the F-18 shot down by Dawood on the 17th, apparently there is that F-14 supposedly lost to an "optical guidance" SA-2 ( i've never found one of those yet ), but reputable researchers point that the nearest SA-2 was either outside the kill zone or just at the very edge of it, AND there were at least a MiG-29 and a MiG-25 close by which apparently fired against that F-14.

Also there is apparently an USAF F-15C shot down or at least damaged in an ambush on the 30th of january ( or 1st of february...maybe the different dates have to do with the timezones). You will definitely find no mention of such things in "official" records , although at the same date the famous engagement against 2 MiG-25s occurred where the americans fired 10 missiles without hitting any MiG, apparently following them all the way to landing! They were really pissed off that night to take such risks, wonder why.

I can't recall the date now, but there is an USAF F-15C who supposedly lost a portion of the wing during a MiG chase, and of course there is that saudi F-15C lost in an accident (they say ) on the 13th of february, some rumor being that the saudi pilot did not wanted to refuel from a female US tanker crew, so he ran out of fuel! This as far as damaged or lost F-15Cs during that war.

So, you never know what might be eventually confirmed in the future.:)

Mack8,

I've spent the past few years looking at all reports and with the fall of Saddam more information from Iraqi sources has become available to cross-reference Coalition ones. However don't be so quick to dismiss official reports, modern militaries run on paper and everything is always written down, because somebody, somewhere, is always accountable for it. So with that in mind is it nigh impossible to hide the loss of an aircraft, they might disguise or not know the cause, but the loss will have a paper trail and after all this time most of the reports from Desert Storm are out there. For example it is a little known fact that one F.117 was damaged during the war; nothing too exciting, but on the 9th February one aircraft ('790'; probably 80-0790) burst it nose wheel whilst landing. This resulted in damage to the front of the aircraft. This incident isn't mentioned in the book on Stealth Fighter operations 'Bandits over Baghdad', but is there to be seen in the 37th TFW After Action Report. It had to be in the report, because the damage needed to be accounted for and somebody had to pay for the repair!

So in that light I can say with 99% confidence (nothing is ever 100%) that no USAF F.15C's were lost during the war, if one was then there would be a trail and evidence of the loss. The damaged Kosovo F.117 you mention got buried for a number of years namely because the aircraft wasn't lost, it may have been badly damaged, but it still returned to base. Even then rumours about the incident were still out pretty quickly, though as you say it took a number of years before it was confirmed (by a note at the USAF museum if I remember correctly!) So the claims for a F.15C loss on the 30th January/1st February seem very doubtful. The reason they spent so much effort trying to shot down the MiG25's is undoubtably the same reason fighter pilots have been flying since the first plane took off with a gun, it's what they're there for and every pilot wants to be an ace. As mentioned in a different thread, F.15C '79-0022' was damaged on the 28th January (losing 3' of its port wing tip), though these seems to have been caused through structural failure during air manoeuvering rather than actual combat damage. The Saudi F.15C lost on the 13th February crashed south of Khamis Mushayt during a 'training flight'. I don't have much more details (I'd not heard the 'refused to take fuel' claim) and yes the Saudi's could be lying about the location, but on the same day they reported the combat loss of a No17 Sqn F.5E over Kuwait, so why lie about one, but accurately report the other?

Regarding the F.14A+ lost on the 21st January, since the war it has always been reported as being downed by the 'optically guided' SA-2 SAM, though this has always been seen by me as being given as a excuse by the high flying crew for failing to detect a missile launch. Yes it's possible that it was hit by an AAM during the early morning mission, but in this case the Iraqi Air Force does not seem to have made a associated claim, which reduces the possibilty of them being responsible. And though it may have been at the limit of the SA-2 site range, that doesn't mean that the site couldn't have brought it down.

Thanks for the additional comments though, I'm always ready to read with an open mind to update my records where required.

Regards,

Steve

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It seems Iraq got a total of 42 MiG-25s of all variants from August 1981.
The first was sqn 87 with 12 PD at Habbaniyah/Al Taqaddum bolstered by further 10 PDS, when all were converted to PDS till 1983.
The second sqn 96 got 12 RB and the third sqn 97 got 8 PU. Of all MiG-25s a total of 7 was lost to all reasons till 1990.
The first opportunity of Iranian F-4s to run into MiG-25s was from August 1981 at first.

How I wish do not have to write all this!:angel:

After the start of the Iraq offensive against Iran Air Bases in September 22 of 1980, the Iran Air Force strike back two hours later with 04 F-4E Phantom II as its first target the Shoibiah Air Base from Iraq.

The Shoibiah AB according to journalist Tom Cooper would be under command from Soviet Union before the beginning of the war between Iran / Iraq, since this base would be used by Soviet Union in reconnaissance missions of the MiG-25RB across the Persian Gulf to cover the U.S. Navy Fleet, and officially those MiG-25RB should be from Iraq Air Force, since the presence of units of the Soviet Union would not officially recognized by the Soviet Union and Iraq.

In order to protect both Shoibiah AB as well the missions of the MiG-25RB , the Soviet Union would have positioned in this airfield a contingent of: 16 MiG-21MF, 20 MiG-23 and 24 MiG 25RB/PD.

The counterattack by Iran on September 22 against Shoibiah AB could not have been random, since the September 23 the Iran Air Force had launched the Operation Kamal 99, that were major air strike against strategic targets in Iraq.

This attack on September 23 were used probably almost 140 F 4 Phantom II supported by air tankers B707 and escorted by F 14A Tomcat, and again this day Shoibiah AB were again attacked as well several others targets, and thus the Soviet Union aircraft's on Shoibiah AB could be the greatest threat against the Iran strike since on Shoibah AB should be positioned the MiG 25 PD Foxbat had been equipped with Sapfir 25 radars that would be more advanced in Iraq even after the Iraq received the MiG 25 PD equipped with older Smerch 1A radar.

Due to own war between Iran / Iraq, besides the fact that Shoibiah AB was next battlefield, the Soviet Union transferred its units to H 3 Main, once the plan conduct reconnaissance missions in the Persian Gulf by MiG 25 RB Soviet Union from Iraq were canceled since it would be a high risk that those missions could be intercepted by Iran, especially by F 14A Tomcat.

The war between Iran / Iraq began with both sides had been surprised by events and due to this had high intercepted, since Iran does not expect an invasion from Iraq Army and therefore the Iran was not prepared for it, just like Iraq did not expect a strong reaction Iran Air Force since this would be supposed to be knocked out even before they start the war because the revolution in Iran in 1978.

So it would be a chance that due to a possible reaction from Iran Air Force in case of war with Iraq, it last one had made an agreement with the Soviet Union that in case of war with Iran, the Soviet Union would support secretly Iraq with air units until the Iraq Air Force was fully empowered with new aircraft's provided by the Soviet Union from 1979 to Iraq.

Thus in case of war Shoibiah AB should be placed out of service as soon as possible by Iran since on this airfield would be the most advanced fighters in Iraq, especially the MiG 25 PD.

The Operation Kamal 99 had not reached its goal that was to halt Iraq's invasion of Iran, however this proved that Iran should have the same planned well in advance, since sources said Iran should have placed almost 200 aircraft in this operation and it reached several targets throughout Iraq.

The interesting point was that according to all sources of information about the Iran Air Force Force it should be out of combat, since most pilots had been shot by the new regime after the revolution in 1978, or those who had not been shot or had fled from Iran would be arrested.

However put on the air on the second day of the war such force of 200 aircraft as F 4E Phantom II, F 5E Tiger II, F 14A Tomcat and aircraft tankers B707, indeed would take many pilots and crews, as well as all officers and technicians that supported those aircraft's, and would not be a easy task without the help from many "ghosts" or even the "dead walking's" from military personnel from Iran Air Force.

As I have no idea what intelligence service had provided to Iraq such slightly misguided reports about the operational status of the Iran Air Force before the war, and I will not speculate about it, since I do not know what was the countries who had access the military officers who had defected from Iran after 1978.

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maurobaggio... that story is hilarious! it is simply so far beyond the realm of reality that I don't know where to begin dissecting it.

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yes and grossly inaccurate... tom and the rest of the crew openly acknowledge that the data there is erroneous, but neither update it nor remove it... perpetuating the myths.

you will get better data from their recent works which begins incorporating, slowly, Iraqi data to correct some of the fabulous claims in their earlier works (iran iraq war in the air and F14 units in combat etc...). I did suggest making "new" book on the iran-iraq air war and they may do an improved book now that much more information has become available since 2010...

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yes and grossly inaccurate... tom and the rest of the crew openly acknowledge that the data there is erroneous, but neither update it nor remove it... perpetuating the myths.

you will get better data from their recent works which begins incorporating, slowly, Iraqi data to correct some of the fabulous claims in their earlier works (iran iraq war in the air and F14 units in combat etc...). I did suggest making "new" book on the iran-iraq air war and they may do an improved book now that much more information has become available since 2010...

I see it similar. A website more intrested in "hits" than correct data.

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On the subject of Iraq and the Mig 25, this shows how strongly built the Mig 25 was.....

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/mig25.jpg

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Are you serious or just taking the micky?:) That picture is a well known ( and horrible ) PS.