MiG-25 vs F-4 in Iran-Iraq war

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Are you serious or just taking the micky?:) That picture is a well known ( and horrible ) PS.

I should have put a :) in.

Sorry.

That's a 60 ton vehicle, stainless steel construction (on some parts) or not...

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Someone long ago about which I can remember the name made an observation that made history that would be something like this:" if you're able to tell a lie 1000 times this lie would became a truth."

On the other hand someone also already said a long time: "the lie is only able to survive in the absence of truth".This is evident when observes that nations ruled by dictatorial regimes maintains full control over the media.

However discern what is true is that the lie is not easy task especially in wars, since in wars propaganda is an important weapon, and so all sides tend to emphasize what befits them, or even lie about the facts.

For those who had a great patience to read this so far, since I would not have this, in below there is the site with the book to read for free about the F 4 Phantom II in the Iran/Iraq War and would like "to dissect" more about it:

Bishop F and Cooper T, 2003, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat.
*** removed by moderator - sorry, but it is copyrighted material ***

The fact that someone has written a book does not make the facts described in it as an unquestionable truth, even an idiot like me knows this, however this is at the least exposed to criticism as well as their arguments. :sleeping:

Warning: if someone want to dissect me in the future please shoot in my head first, since the living dead tend to wake up without warning, and as I always wake up in a bad mood for sure I have dinner the brain who would dissect me as dessert .

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Are you serious or just taking the micky?:) That picture is a well known ( and horrible ) PS.

Why do you say the photo is a PS?

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that book is simply a book of iranian CLAIMS (and UNOFFICIAL ones at that)... the facts from the Iraqi side were only known after 2010 (100% accurate account of Iraqi airframe availability... i.e. internal audit figures of saddam's regime that were TOP SECRET).

The internal audit figures revealed that Iraq lost less than 1/3rd of the number of aircraft the Iranians claimed.

the numbers can be looked up on the iraqi military forum.

Now taken those new "facts" along with the Iranian admitted losses from their side we can see that the junky, russian NON-BVR fighters the Iraqis operated flew 8x more combat missions and suffered LESS losses to boot... and had positive kill ratios.... basically turning the entire Bishop/Cooper thesis upside down.

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Do you have a link to the iraqi counter-claims somewhere, sheytanelkebir?

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Are you serious or just taking the micky?:) That picture is a well known ( and horrible ) PS.

I don't think so. Have tou seen a pic of that MiG-25 without the tank on it? I personally have not.
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Do you have a link to the iraqi counter-claims somewhere, sheytanelkebir?

http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=71

Total Iraqi fixed wing combat aircraft written off about 150 for the entire war. Another 100 airframes written off from the army aviation (helicopters and PC7s) for a total "aircraft loss" of 250 airframes fixed and rotary wing to ALL causes including: accidents, ground fire, blue-on-blue, and air-air shot downs...

The Iranians claim something like 300 fixed wing aircraft JUST from "air to air" shootdowns... when the real total number could not exceed 50-80 in total. The numbers claimed are completely ludicrous now that we know how many airframes Iraq had in 1990... there are also lots of completely unsubstantiated claims about Iraq receiving "secret" shipments of aircraft from the USSR just in order for the number of shoot-down claims to tally with the Iraqi airframe figures (without any proof from either Iraqi or Soviet/Russian side)... just in order to make the Iraqi figures "fit" the Iranian kill claims (we all know how statistically/scientifically "acceptable" such a routine is)... sadly the fact that we have new information about this topic for at least the last three years, the old unreliable figures continue to be bandied about mainly for sensationalist and nationalist reasons... not least because it would change the "accepted wisdom" about:
-MiGs are losers
-arab pilots are retards
-Western fighters are the best
-BVR wins over WVR fighters every time
-Airpower makes a decisive difference in a war between "developing" world combatants (it does not)

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Much of the data comes from the top-secret Presidential secretariat archive which was captured by the US after 2003 and some parts are translated to english.

page 373.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFsQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3Dada484530&ei=U_d_UZXOFqSv0QWxmIGABQ&usg=AFQjCNGN-jqOp5ZrMEwf8xIe_DtFta7gOQ&sig2=pSsvo3fyyhCytjT8L3v8Vw&bvm=bv.45645796,d.d2k

some interesting archives for you to read through:
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA500619

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/docuploaded/saddams-generals.pdf

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In the single link from the last post of the sheytanelkebir that I could actually open there are interesting information, especially when it says that the Iran Air Force should have a plan to attack Iraq even before the Iraq began the War on September 22, 1980 due to the attack in high scale from Iran on September 23, 1980.

Among the pages between 189 and 197 in the link were also commented on the counterattack from Iran with F 4 Phantom II on the afternoon of September 22 against Al-Shai'bah (Shoibah in other book) and Al Kut Iraq two hours after Iraq's had started the offensive against Iran.

In fact when asked about air units from Soviet Union were in Iraq or participated in the
War that was totally denied by the former General. However the mention of a MiG 25 Foxbat of Iraq that made emergency landing in Emirates, and though it was not clear when this occurred, the same about a Mirage, since this part of the interview were made a reference to the end of 1980 when Iraq supposedly by U.S. source had a plan to disperse its Air Force in others countries such as Saudi Arabia to prevent their destruction in Iraq bases, which was also totally denied by the former Iraq General and even that such a plan had been prepared.

In the late 1980s both the MiG 25 Foxbat and Mirage F1 would not be operational in the Iraqi Air Force which only occur in late 1981, however there is mention in the book Iranian F 4 Phantom II in Combat that the Mirage 5 from Egypt could have participated in the War on the side of Iraq just like mercenaries French pilots flown in Mirage F1 from Iraq during the War Iran/Iraq.

However, the best known case is about the Super Entendard armed with anti ship missiles Exocet AM 39 that France lent to Iraq until the Mirage F1EQ5 able to launch anti ship missiles AM 39 Exocet could became operational. In this case there were always rumors that French pilots had engaged in combat missions, which has always been denied by France and Iraq.

In in my opinion about the book in the link this is very interesting, and about the relation to 22 and 23 September 1980, and the counterattack against Iraq Air Bases of the Al Shai'bah (Shoibah) in such versions of both Iran and Iraq are similar, or even attacks against nuclear power Osirak in 1980 and 1981.

I don't expect to find any kind of confirmation about the MiG 25 from Soviet Union in Iraq during the war from some source of this countries, even such idiot as myself known that, especially from military officers who served the same for patriot reason and others not much polities.

However I found this very interesting the description in the page 195 of the former Iraq General about Iraq had considered the possibility of using a Air Base from Oman to launch an attack with Tu 22 Blinders against Iran, which did not happen due to the fact the runway was too short for the Tu 22 Blinder take off with full load.

If Iraq did not receive or even request the support from others nations as the Soviet Union then why ask to launch an attack of Oman and maybe put this country in war with Iran?

This would be my stupid :stupid: question that would like respectfully to made to the former Iraq General.

However I did not put the link of the book because I'm not sure if I will break the rules, so whoever is interested look for the link in the post from Sheytanelkebir.

Kevin M. Woods, Williamson Murray, Elizabeth A. Nathan, Laila Sabara, Ana M. Venegas. SADDAM’S GENERALS
Perspectives of the Iran-Iraq War

I mentioned earlier this book, and will not put the link to not break the rules, however anyone who has interest in reading the same I recommend to buy this, but if you prefer to take a test drive the Internet Search Engines would indicate the path.

Bishop F and Cooper T, 2003, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat.

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to download them
1- download the gettrddoc
2-open it in a PDF reader / or add .pdf to the filename

First document shows total aircraft availability in 1990. When combined with total aircraft deliveries it tells us the number of aircraft Iraq lost to ALL causes up to 1990... That information is amalgamated on the Iraqi military forum and the total number of fixed wing Aircraft Iraq lost was 150 during the war. The source is not a general or an interview it is the OFFICIAL IRAQI TOP SECRET ARCHIVE recovered from the Presidential Secretariat and was the result of the internal audits. That tells us that whilst in the above OLD BOOKS you put up Cooper/Bishop claimed something like 300+ Iraqi combat aircraft destroyed JUST in air to air engagement (combined with the surface to air engagements they must have shot down the entire Iraqi air force twice...).. we can see that the reality is that 75% of those claims WERE NOT TRUE! and COULD NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE since the planes claimed shot down WERE STILL IN ONE PIECE IN 1990!

The more useful information from Cooper/Bishop is the confirmations of Iranian aircraft losses (although, for example Iran lost a total of 19 F14 tomcats during the war, Cooper/Bishop mention only 4-5 losses in combat! they acknowledge that 19 were indeed lost... but mention only 4-5 losses)... when all data is eventually amalgamated (Iraqi and Iranian), we will see that the war:

-Iraqis flew 8x more combat missions than Iranians
-Lost half the number of aircraft in the process than the Iranians... meaning it was 16x more dangerous for an Iranian pilot to fly a combat mission than for an Iraqi pilot.
-That is despite Iraq having 0 BVR capable fighters in 1980-81 vs Iran having 300+ BVR capable fighters at that time (not to mention EC-130 and Boeing 707 airborne command posts, a fleet of airborne tankers etc...)! Ludicrously lopsided against the Iraqis (and don't forget Iraq, just like Iran was under arms embargo at that time AND was still undergoing an "internal coup" with anti-saddam types being purged from the Military... in fact Iraq's military at the time suffered more purges than Iran's).. yet somehow the Iranians never showed any advantage in combat even during that period.
-Most of that is due not to "iraqi superiority" somehow, but because the combat zone exposed Iranian aircraft to Iraqi Radars as they were ingressing giving the Iraqis enough time to intercept the aircraft... whilst Iraqi planes flying into Iran were not detected by Iranian radars (due to Iran's terrain mainly) until it was too late to intercept in many instances. Simple facts, no hyperbole or innuendo :D

the fact that neither airforce made any real difference in the war is down to:

Iran- the lack of effective radar coverage over enemy territory, lack of coherent air combat strategy and organisational mess
Iraq - lack of effective radar coverage over enemy territory, short range of most of its aircraft

I am rather hoping that one day Cooper et al will come up with a "definitive" book on the Iran-Iraq air war including all the corrections and new data out. :D

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Although I am an idiot:stupid:, I had the feeling that in this thread here I was the only one who read the book in the link, and I'm curious to know if the same that put the link already did read the book.

As I know no one will read this my comment here, in fact the Iran / Iraq War has always aroused controversy of opinions even in many serious person who studied the war between Iran/Iraq, so I don't any problem to write this because none will see:

An important but almost often not mentioned reason was that the Iran Military Forces ( Air Force, Army and Navy) had been equipped during the 70’s with high advanced weapons and large quantity of those by U.S. and its Allies with the purpose of Iran could be prepared to enter into combat not in a local war, but even with the Soviet Union.

An important but almost often not mentioned reason was that the Iran Military Forces ( Air Force, Army and Navy) had been equipped during the 70’s with high advanced weapons and large quantity of those by U.S. and its Allies with the purpose of Iran could be prepared to enter into combat not in a local war, but even with the Soviet Union.

In short of the short if a case of the World War III could happened it possible that same would start with the invasion of the Soviet Union in Iran, and once this it were occupied, the Soviet Union would close the Persian Gulf and prevent the access of Western nations to oil produced in this region, which would lead to the collapse of the Western economy.:sleeping:

With the Iran revolution in 1979 the new government of the Iran had promoted the U.S. from former ally to the new enemy, the Soviet Union that had extensive border with Iran invaded Afghanistan that was also neighbor of Iran and besides that all good news from Iranian Military Officers Saddam took power in Iraq even approaching the Iraq more with the Soviet Union.

Thus when Iraq started the war with Iran in 1980 it was in a military situation extremely worrying since it did not receive more support from the U.S. and other Western countries to maintain their high advanced weapons , as unlikely the U.S. would intervene in case the Soviet Union could gone in an active way alongside Iraq.:sleeping:

The new revolutionary government of Iran in 1979 could perhaps an unprecedented feat in the Defense Council of the UN during the Cold War, since Iran put all (U.S., USSR, China, United Kingdom, France) on the same side, from a way or another, to support Iraq in the war against Iran.

Of all the analyzes that I had knowledge about why Iran Air Force played a role would be lower than its capabilities during the war with Iraq, at least the beginning of it when it had not yet suffered great losses, in fact could be than to risk all their forces in a quick victory in Iraq, and even that could occurred certainly would be large losses, perhaps could be no time to celebrate the victory against Iraq, or else this would occur with a magnificent parade of the Red Army in Tehran, or according others with the parade of the Marines and the U.S. Army.:dev2:

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maurobaggio I have read that book entirely and am coming at you from a perspective of someone who knows both sides of the equation and therefore I identified the "holes" in the arguments put up by the various cooper/bishop books from the early days (Iran-Iraq War in the Air, F4 and F14 books...). The "holes" are really quite huge and certainly the books do give a very distorted view of the air war if one doesn't update it with information from the "other side"... (PS, 99% of the sources used for the above three books were exclusively Iranian... despite claims to the contrary... in fact even when cooper/bishop claim to have used Iraqi sources the basic mistakes with the claims were just too EASY to spot... e.g. using iranian placenames for Iraqi areas and Iraqi names! a mistake that NO Iraqi would EVER make).

Finally now we know exactly how many Iraqi planes survived the war with Iran, which lays to rest 75%-80% of the "kill claims" from the above three books.

regarding why Iran didn't have a "quick victory" sounds like simple made-up-stuff disconnected entirely from reality... Iran's airforce flew as much as it could... so did Iraq's. In 1980-81 Iraq was under arms embargo from USSR, it had NO diplomatic relations with the US and saddam had only been in power since 1979 (same year that khomeini came to power) and was in the process of mass purges in the military to get rid of unreliables... but these were not exactly given much space in the cooper/bishop books. As I told you, you need to UPDATE yourself with at least Iraqi perspective as well as concrete numbers of aircraft losses and sortie rates from the Iraqi side in order to put into perspective the various iranian "claims" from the cooper/bishop books... and judging "success", take into account the things I wrote above... how an airforce of "arab inferiors" with 0 BVR aircraft going up against 300+ BVR armed F4s and F14s managed to hold itself up very well indeed!! flying 8x more sorties and losing 1/2 of the aircraft in the process!! Did Cooper/Bishop mention these little "fleeting facts" in any of their books?

or are those books with 0% Iraqi perspective gospel?

have you read the links I put up?

now going back to the original thread title. The F4 and MiG25 didn't meet each other in the war.

The Mig25s were tasked with high altitude interception. The F4s flew in low to attack Iraq and were intercepted either by Iraqi SHORADS or MiG21/23/Mirage-F1
The MiG25RB flew high and fast into Iran... the F4 was never in a position to intercept them.

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As I recall the F 4D/E Phantom II from Iran and MiG 25 PDS Interceptor fighter from Iraq had been meeting several times during the war, which resulted in shoot-down of F 4 Phantom II by the MiG 25 PDS Foxbat , and this were even recognized by the Iranian sources .

Regarding MiG 25RB Reconnaissance/Strike fighter had been operating at maximum altitude and speed, in fact they were out of range of the F 4D/E Phantom II from Iran with its missiles air-air BVR (Beyond Visual Range) AIM 7E Sparrow. Like the MiG-25RB aircraft would be out of range for the F 14A Tomcat II if they do not have the long-range air -air missiles AIM 54A Phoenix.

If Iran had been ran out the AIM 54 Phoenix, the MiG 25 PDS with long range missiles AA 6 Acrid from Iraq would have overwhelmed the F 14A Tomcat II only equipped with AIM 7E Sparrow.

Over the Lebanon in 1981 the F 15A/B/C/D Eagle from Israel managed to impose against the MiG 25PDS from Syria since Israel F-15 were equipped with AIM 7F Sparrow, who indeed the "F" should be described as new missile in respect to missile AIM 7E , when it came the range the "F" had twice the range of "E".

Although Iran had ordered the AIM 7F these were not delivered because of the revolution in Iran in 1979, among many other items, the best known the order of Iran for 200( two hundred!) F 16A/B which were canceled after the revolution. The total of 714 missiles AIM 54A Phoenix had been ordered by Iran that received only 284, since that after the revolution was suspended the delivery of those missiles the same way as all other items of U.S. origin.

When I said about the Iran to risk everything in a quick victory I was referring to the strategy to use everything that could be in hands, including the reserves, in order to achieve victory, since most would not risk everything to be defeated quickly.

As an example I could mention the strategy of Israel in 1973 during the Yom Kippur War or October, since it employed all they could had into a counter attack, however contrary to Iran in 1980, Israel had U.S. support through the sending ammunition and new weapons with the operation Nickel Glass.

In rough numbers in the Yom Kippur War or October 1973 all the countries involved in this lost something like 600 aircraft about more than 25,000 combat missions in what appears to be a number greater than the losses of aircraft Iran and Iraq together according to various sources. However there are a huge difference between the Yom Kippur War against the Iran / Iraq War, since in the Yom Kippur War or October 1973 occurred in just over three weeks, while the Iran / Iraq lasted almost 8 years or something like
416 weeks!

I do not know how to do math :o , so I wish that someone would make the math in order to demonstrate the rate of aircraft losses from Iraq and Iran in relation to missions undertaken throughout the entire war. As I do not know how to do math, I can only guess that numbers would be very interesting.:o

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What math you have in mind. Both wars were not comparable. In 1973 fierce battles over a limited area afterb a tactical surprise and in 1980 the frontline was over 1000 km and the main battle field at the Shatt al Arab where both parties had no SAM-belts to protect the groundforce, which had limited ideas about the unfolding events.

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What math you have in mind. Both wars were not comparable. In 1973 fierce battles over a limited area afterb a tactical surprise and in 1980 the frontline was over 1000 km and the main battle field at the Shatt al Arab where both parties had no SAM-belts to protect the groundforce, which had limited ideas about the unfolding events.

By 1985 the Iran Air Force were weakened by the war which had been dragging on for nearly five years. Though the same was able to maintain balance with the Iraq Air Force, which had constantly been strengthened with new equipment's and tactics along almost five years of war.

In general all of the main types of combat aircraft's from Iran (F 4D/E, F 5E/F and F 14A ) had been recorded losses, but the most significant loss were still about to occur, since the lifetime of the air-air long range missile AIM 54A Phoenix were nearing the end in 1985.

Without the missiles AIM 54A the F 14A Tomcat would be equipped with only medium range AIM 7E Sparrow and would be overwhelmed by the MiG-25 Foxbat PDS from Iraq with its long-range missiles AA 6 Acrid, besides the MiG-25RB attack/reconnaissance would have leave way in strike missions against strategic targets in Iran.

In the same way that the supersonic bombers Tu 22 Blinder would be escorted by MiG 25 PDS from Iraq it could be able to crush the oil facilities on the Kharg island , where Iran exported most all of the its oil leading Iran to the collapse.

F 4N from U.S Navy intercept two Libyans Tu 22 Blinders

As well as subsonic bombers H 6D (Chinese version of the Tu 16 Badger) equipped with anti ship missiles C 601 should be protected by MiG 25PDS could attack and sink the frigates and destroyers from Iranian Navy that would eventually escorting the oil tankers along the Persian Gulf.

In the case of Tu 22 Blinder if this had receive those anti ship missiles with supersonic and long-range capabilities of the Kh 22 Kitchen's, in that case the Iran Navy would be completely swept from the seas, allowing tactical aviation from Iraq to concentrate on sinking oil tankers with the same free-fall bombs.

Despite the air cover from F 4D/E Phantom II and F 14A Tomcat for the convoys from Iran the anti ship missile AM 39 Exocet had become the main means from Iraq Air Force to defeat the Iran Navy, and the Exocet could be launched by fight bomber Super Entendard or after the Mirage F1EQ5, besides the Super Frelon helicopters.

The effectiveness of such attacks from Exocet was not starring as had happened in the War of Falklands on 1982, since the large tankers could resisted the damage caused by the 'light' warhead of 165 kg (360 lb) from subsonic AM 39 so much better than the medium-sized vessels such as destroyers from the Royal Navy in 1982.

For oil tankers would be ideal employment of large subsonic missile C 601 with warhead of 513 kg (1120 lb) that could be launched by Xian H 6D, or supersonic and then the most expensive Kh 22 Kitchen launched by Tu 22 Blinder with warhead of 1000 kg (2180 lb) . In fact several oil tankers hit by AM 39 did not sink, and once repaired had returned to active allowing the continued export of oil from Iran during the War.

The Xian H 6D was a Chinese version from Soviet Union Tu 16 Badger
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Tu-16_rear.jpg/640px-Tu-16_rear.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Tu-16_rear.jpg/640px-Tu-16_rear.jpg

Since that ships convoys had been protected by Phantoms and Tomcats there no favorable opportunity to strike with H 6D or Tu 22, or even about to strike with the fighter bomber ( MiG 23BK, Su 22M3K or Mirage F1Q) with free fall bombs that should be more effective than the Exocet, but the AM 39 Exocet at least gave at the Mirage F 1EQ5 the possibiliy to strike and escape from the escorts ships with SAM( Surface Air Missiles) or from Phantons and Tomcats, almost allways...

To avoid detection by radar from escort ships from Iran Navy and missiles as SAM RIM 66 Standard that were equipped some Iranian ships, the Iraq fighter equipped with AM 39 Exocet had to fly at low altitude over the sea as the same way that Super Entendard from Argentine Navy made in 1982.

However on the Falklands War the Royal Navy had the Sea Harrier with only short-range missiles AIM 9L Sidewinder to protect the fleet, and this time lacked the F 4E Phantom II equipped with medium-range missiles AIM 7E Sparrow, or even the F 14A Tomcat with long-range missiles AIM 54A Phoenix giving coverage to the fleet with the NATO.

While the ships from Royal Navy Fleet dreaming about the Phantoms and Tomcats to protect them, the subsonic Sea Harrier only equipped with news short range missiles AIM 9P had faced the nightmare that were the threat from Argentine Air Force and its Navy Air Force to the Royal Navy Fleet. The highly effective all-aspect short range AIM 9P Sidewinder from Sea Harrier were borrowed by U.S. as emergency measure in 1982 because the war with 100 units delivered.

Without the resources from oil exported the ailing economy from Iran would collapse as well as the capacity of maintaining military operations during the war with Iraq, which would certainly lead Iraq to victory .

Despite the priority of maintaining the already had been reduced stock of the missiles AIM 54A Phoenix in operation, in fact Iran failed to get on the "open market" same items that were critical for those missiles, and this was the thermal battery , since the depletion of useful life from this was responsible for getting the missile out of the operation.

The thermal battery were responsible for generating the power electricity had consumed from missile when its flew for the target, even though this item is not something new, however in the case of AIM 54 the level technology this item was advanced to this time, which led to the U.S. being only capable of producing the required standards for the AIM 54 Phoenix.

There weren't similar items on the "open market", at least in small dimensions to fit in the compact airframe of the AIM 54.The Phoenix were missiles with active radar and long range, which demanded a high power consumption, several times higher than that of a passive radar-guided missile (SARH) even larger as the SAM MIN 23 Hawk or SAM RIM 66 Standard .

Thus emerged in Iran two programs designed to replenish the lack of AIM 54A Phoenix, one of these was to make compatible the missile system SAM MIN 23 Hawk for F 14A Tomcat, and the other was a missile from SAM system RIM 66 Standard to the F 4E Phantom II.

In case the SAM Hawk for the F 14A the program would be quite complex, since it were intended to transform the missile semi-active radar Hawk into active radar, since the idea was to "transplant" the active radar homing seeker of the "agonizing" AIM 54A Phoenix to the Hawk with dimensions compatible with a new thermal battery with larger seize, those would be available in the market in order to meet the high demand of electricity in the guidance system of the AIM 54A Phoenix long-range interceptions that would be impossible to fit into AIM 54 airframe . The Sky Hawk program would end in a hybrid between the Hawk and Phoenix.

Iranian F 14A flying below the leader was carrying a Sky Hawk with red colours marks on the pilone wing
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3e/Irani_F-14_Tomcats_carrying_AIM-54_Phoenixs.jpg/640px-Irani_F-14_Tomcats_carrying_AIM-54_Phoenixs.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3e/Irani_F-14_Tomcats_carrying_AIM-54_Phoenixs.jpg/640px-Irani_F-14_Tomcats_carrying_AIM-54_Phoenixs.jpg

Detail of the Sky Hawk on the pilone wing from Iranian F 14A Tomcat
http://www.afwing.com/gallery/iran/7.jpg
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1157775/posts

Regarding SAM Standard for the F 4E Phantom II the program these were previous for the War, and was initiated by Israel with code-name Distant Thunder Program in conjunction with Iran in the late '70s. Faced with the threat of the MiG-25 and Tu 22 equipped with powerfull ECM systems, the combination Phantom II and AIM 7E would not be effective, and the idea was to transform the missiles RIM 66 Standad to be launched by F 4E Phantom II, however beyond the previous SARH ( Semi Active Radar Homing) capability of the Standard would have addressing the anti radiation capability in the case of ECM( Eletronic Counter Measure) from enemy aircraft jammed the radar from Phantom.

Detail of the RIM 66 Standard on the pilone wing from Iranian F 4E Phantom II
http://www.afwing.com/gallery/iran/8.jpg
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1157775/posts

Israel had at the time the anti radiation missile AGM 78 for SEAD( Supression Enemy Air Defense) missions that were based on the Standard missile, and it hoped to transform both the AGM 78 with new SARH as secondary mode capability as the Standard with anti radiation secondary mode capability.

The join program from Israel and Iran was only ended after the U.S. agreed to provide AIM 7F for the F 15 Eagle to Israel with the secondary mode capability( High Classified) to lock the emissions ECM, as well as the AIM 54A Phoenix for F 14A Tomcat with this same secondary mode anti radiation capability. Even the radars from F 15 and F 14 had been jammed by ECM, the missiles AIM 7F and AIM 54A should be guided to the ECM source as anti radiation missile into this secondary mode and destroy the target with ECM source, in case of this ECM source were in range of missiles .

In 1986 apparently those two programs from Iran as Standard and Sky Hawk could have been cancelled after the U.S. supplied spare parts for AIM 54A Phoenix, as well as many other items to Iran in 1985, which eventually triggered the scandal of the Iran Gates after that were discovered by the press, with problable same help from ...

However as the program of the Standard for the F 4E Phantom II were more advanced than the program Sky Hawk of F 14A Tomcat since as the first had begun in the late '70s, the rumors that it reached the stage when it were used against real targets, those could be the MiG 25RB from Iraq in attack missions against oil terminal from Kharg Island.

The Standard when launched by F 4E could reach the range more than twice of the AIM 7E range, which would put the MiG 25RB easily into range to be shoot down by the F 4E. Indeed the Iranians always reported that the Standard F 4E had the purpose to be used as anti ship missiles, and some attacks against ships had been made for this purpose.

However the suspect those anti ship missions with Standard launched by Phantom had only the purpose of concealing the true mission that would be intercept the MiG 25RB or others aircraft as Tu 22 and H 6D, since the fleet of Tomcat were too reduced to protect many targets, and the Phantom with Standard missiles could eventually complement the F 14A with AIM 54 missiles, specially in the defense of the Kharg Island as well the oil tankers.

At least one Tu 22 Blinder was shot down over the Kharg Island by Phantom II, and that Phantom did it supposedly with AIM 7E Sparrow missile, however the Tu 22 Blinder were well equipped with ECM, and in 1988 Iraq was quite experienced to interfere with radars of F 4E with AIM 7E with high efficiency.A suspect this way and that in fact Tu 22 was shot down by a modified Standard with the capability to be guided to the ECM source even if the radar F 4E had been suffering interference by the enemy jammer. Those Standards could have been modified with spare parts sent by US to AIM 54 in 1985, but diverged to the Standard program

Regarding the MiG 25RB attack/reconnaissance fighter there no indication that any were shot down by an F 4E Phantom II during the Iran / Iraq War at least with missiles AIM 7E. Before the war some sources had speculated that F 4E from Iran indeed were capable to damage a MiG 25R from Soviet Union that invaded the airspace of Iran with missiles AIM 7E Sparrow after several failed attempts.

Despite possible still in fact there was a huge difference between the MiG 25R reconnaissance fighter to the MiG 25RB attack/reconnaissance , since this last one were second generation compared to MiG 25R, and were endowed with a powerful ECM system. In fact after the introduction of the MiG 25RB the first generation MiG 25R were gradually converted to the default MiG 25RB.

However the invasions of the Soviet Union's MiG-25RB only had been ceased after the first encounter with the F 14A Tomcat from Iran, in which AIM 54A Phoenix fell in love by the MiG 25.

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Just to start with a single point. The distance from Basra to Kharg Island is no more than 300 km and by that even in reach of a MiG-21.
The MiG-25PDS at Al Taqaddum Airbase were tasked with the AD of the Bagdad area. Useless as escort fighters for Iraqi air strike packages tasked for missions in some distance from the Iraqi border. Kharg Island could not be destroyed by air attacks. Just the loading facilities and some tankers in that area during an attack could be damaged. Repeated Iraki air-attacks and the mounting damage from that forced the Iranians shift the loading of that tankers further and further to the east of the Gulf over the years.
It took some time, because the new loading points were in some distance of the oil-fields and an interim solution was to ship oil with smaller tankers to that points. In fact Kharg Island was never closed really. Just when the big tankers itself became a prime target the impact was felt on both sides. On the Iraqi side it was overcome by credits from Kuwait f.e. None wasted his anti-ship capability against the much less important naval units. See a short report about that.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_tanker.html
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Tanker_War_map_-_The_Iran-Iraq_War_1980_-_1988.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tanker_War_map_-_The_Iran-Iraq_War_1980_-_1988.jpg&h=659&w=1000&sz=573&tbnid=-fhKPppRFoU-EM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__y1w8z9GrPqnK4Mxm7-WxvN5MspY=&docid=JG3FmHVtTjrboM&hl=de&sa=X&ei=TFmWUZf2Fc7itQbtloDoCA&ved=0CEwQ9QEwBA&dur=529

1980 ended in a stalemate. Just in spring 1982 the Iran was capable to push back the Iraqi invaders. In June 1982 Saddam asked for a ceasefire with Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
Is a summary about the events of that war and influenced by the better public relations of the Iranians. That ignored the airwar was just the much smaller part of that conflict despite our intrest in that at first.

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21 years 10 months

Posts: 11,742

....
Regarding the MiG 25RB attack/reconnaissance fighter there no indication that any were shot down by an F 4E Phantom II during the Iran / Iraq War at least with missiles AIM 7E. Before the war some sources had speculated that F 4E from Iran indeed were capable to damage a MiG 25R from Soviet Union that invaded the airspace of Iran with missiles AIM 7E Sparrow after several failed attempts.

Despite possible still in fact there was a huge difference between the MiG 25R reconnaissance fighter to the MiG 25RB attack/reconnaissance , since this last one were second generation compared to MiG 25R, and were endowed with a powerful ECM system. In fact after the introduction of the MiG 25RB the first generation MiG 25R were gradually converted to the default MiG 25RB.

However the invasions of the Soviet Union's MiG-25RB only had been ceased after the first encounter with the F 14A Tomcat from Iran, in which AIM 54A Phoenix fell in love by the MiG 25.

There was no much difference between the MiG-25R and the MiG-25RB, because the B was added when the MiG-25R got its secondary role as high altitude bomber for the special weapon. [special weapon = tactical atomic bomb] The Russians were just intrested that the West did not learn something about the real purpose of that secondary capability of the MiG-25. For the ordinary tactical bomber role the MiG-25RB was useless, except in the "war of cities" to cause some fear and terror in the last phase 1987-88 of that war. Maybe an Iraki can tell us about such a mission really.
The SEAD MiG-25BM never went to the Iraq for security reasons.
In 1988 the Iranian Air Force was down to ~20 F-5Es, ~20 F-4D/Es and less than ten F-14As in combat condition.

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13 years 4 months

Posts: 516

Just to start with a single point. The distance from Basra to Kharg Island is no more than 300 km and by that even in reach of a MiG-21.
The MiG-25PDS at Al Taqaddum Airbase were tasked with the AD of the Bagdad area. Useless as escort fighters for Iraqi air strike packages tasked for missions in some distance from the Iraqi border. Kharg Island could not be destroyed by air attacks. Just the loading facilities and some tankers in that area during an attack could be damaged. Repeated Iraki air-attacks and the mounting damage from that forced the Iranians shift the loading of that tankers further and further to the east of the Gulf over the years.
It took some time, because the new loading points were in some distance of the oil-fields and an interim solution was to ship oil with smaller tankers to that points. In fact Kharg Island was never closed really. Just when the big tankers itself became a prime target the impact was felt on both sides. On the Iraqi side it was overcome by credits from Kuwait f.e. None wasted his anti-ship capability against the much less important naval units. See a short report about that.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/wars_tanker.html
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Tanker_War_map_-_The_Iran-Iraq_War_1980_-_1988.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tanker_War_map_-_The_Iran-Iraq_War_1980_-_1988.jpg&h=659&w=1000&sz=573&tbnid=-fhKPppRFoU-EM:&tbnh=79&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__y1w8z9GrPqnK4Mxm7-WxvN5MspY=&docid=JG3FmHVtTjrboM&hl=de&sa=X&ei=TFmWUZf2Fc7itQbtloDoCA&ved=0CEwQ9QEwBA&dur=529

1980 ended in a stalemate. Just in spring 1982 the Iran was capable to push back the Iraqi invaders. In June 1982 Saddam asked for a ceasefire with Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War
Is a summary about the events of that war and influenced by the better public relations of the Iranians. That ignored the airwar was just the much smaller part of that conflict despite our intrest in that at first.

If the distance of the targets was the only important factor during the War of 1973 there should have been dozens of MiG 21 flying over the cities from Israel.

Even without knowing it in 1980, since the Iraq Air Force participated in the 1973 against Israel, it had opted to launch attacks at high altitude with its "ineffective"(please have mercy that its not my opinion) MiG-25RB against the oil facilities of Kharg Island, instead of opting for the MiG-21 or even the dedicated fighter-bombers as Su-22M3K and MiG-23BK , or even by its bombers Tu-16 Badger or else supersonic bombers Tu-22 Blinder.

In fact I did not understand what this means: "None wasted his anti-ship capability against the much less important naval units", since according to several sources the Iraq Air Force had launched over 200 anti ship missiles AM-39 Exocet against naval targets.

As I told before I do not know how to do math, so I guess the number is greater than the sum of all the anti ship missiles launched by aircraft in battle since Germans had developed this method during the II World War.