MiG-25 vs F-4 in Iran-Iraq war

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Also agree with the analysis that the MiG 25 would not make a difference even on September 22, 1980, and if the information is true that these were already in Iraq would be further evidence that did not make the difference, Since the supposed Shai’bah AB from soviet MiG 25 Foxbat was attacked by F 4E Phantom II two hours after the start from Iraq offensive.

The reason would be that on September 23 against the Iran had attacked Iraq with a mass of the 200 aircraft, which is composed according to some sources 140 F-4D / E Phantom II and F 5E / F Tiger II fighter- bombers with 60 F 14A Tomcat interceptors as escort, with the support of tanks and aircraft command B 707 and B 747, in addition to EC 130 Hercules aircraft from Electronic Warfare.

Even if the MiG 21 and MiG 23 were able to evade the Iranians missiles BVR( Beyond Visual Range) AIM 7E Sparrow and AIM 54A Phoenix , and still had been suffering interference on their radars and communication were able to locate and get in close combat with the Iranians, but yet the Iraq fighters would be at a disadvantage since the Iranians fighters were equipped with infra red short range missiles AIM 9P Sidewinder which was far superior to the short-range missile at the disposition of Iraq in 1980.

In 1980, the Israel Air Force could only dream about a task force comprised by its aircraft’s from Iran, thus put Iraq faced this deadly apparatus alone, and resisted it, so it was still able to invade Iran with several Iraq Army Divisions in few day after that counterattack.

Although surprised by the massive counterattack from Iran which selected strategic targets, Iraq had maintained the initial plan of invasion, since the conclusion was that Iran could not maintain that intensity rate from air operations for long , and thus the Iraq Army should reach their goals without suffering major losses from Iran Air Force and the Iranian Army Aviation (attack helicopters AH 1J Cobra ).

The Iraq was wrong about the military capabilities from Iran before the war as they did not expect any air counterattack from Iran against Iraq in less than 48 hours, which could mean that this 48 hrs the Iran Air Force should have been decapitated for the whole structure (Radar Warning System, Fuel Depots, Maintenance Shops, i.e.) even if the aircraft were not destroyed in their HAS( Hardened Aircraft Shelter) and the runways from Air Bases were repaired the Iran Air Force would be unable to resist for more than weeks with limited capabilities.

Despite that was mentioned above the Iraq decision to launch a major ground offensive without establishing air superiority was almost a disaster, since all territorial gains were lost, and it did not take too long to Iraq who was defending its borders.

In September 1980 the Iranian forces were not combat ready any longer. Nearly all of their officers came into rank by the Shah, when most of the conscripts were supporters of Chomeini. The government under Bani Sadre was struggling to control the internal situation. Many of the officers had fled, were in prison or being neutral at best. The technical support from the USA had stopped for over a year and become a full-scale embargo due to the hostage crisis.

When the Iraqi AF attacked in September 22 in 1980 it had not to fear something serious. The Iranians were caught by surprise and not combat ready. The limited counter attack by a few F-4s still at hand just over the border the same day was of psychological value only. When the next day the Iraqi ground forces moved into the Iran the Iranian forces were still unprepared. Just from that day they learned about the scope of the Iraqi attack and tried to restore their armed forces. It was not before 24 September the Iran managed 150 sorties flown. In short the fraction of his nominal AF at hand for the third day of that war.

On the website-forum of former IIAF people you can read about the circumstances of that days. Some proud Iranians there do even support the claims of Iran to cover-up the shortcomings on the Iranian side inflicted by the power-change before. "Right or wrong my country" Most of the Iranian claims as well as that of the Iraqi side [some may remember "comical Ali" in 2003] are a mix of facts and fiction to save face. But even in the West some people are more intrested in thrilling stories than cold facts sometimes.
My dates and data were published in April 1981 and taken from daily reports, when none had any idea about the outcome of that war still years to go. No chance by any side to twist the reality observed in 1980.

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http://www.iiaf.net/home.html#

Here are such a website mentioned. Some questionable claims aside. In the link below you can find the following and keep in mind that several more had fled before:

http://www.iiaf.net/stories/warheroes/warheroes.html

"In the battle for Dezful in Khuzestan, the Islamic regime was forced to halt the execution of hundreds of Iranian pilots accused of participating in a failed coup d’etat attempt in July 1980 and suspected of being loyal to the late Shah. It was these pilots who despite the serious deterioration of the air force were able to curtail the Iraqi advance with their heroic and skilled flying. However, it must be remembered that the Iraqi aggression took place at a time when the Islamic regime had purged the Imperial Armed Forces of many of its top command, officers, specialists and the most educated personnel. More than 2550 executions took place between 1979 and September 1980 with more than 1050 of them coming from the armed forces."

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PART I - They Surprised and Were Surprised

The War and the essence of Ardil. Thus, while it is capable, displays failure. When you decided to use your strength, pretends to inactivity. When is your next goal, makes it look far when distant, creates the illusion that it is near.

[RIGHT]General Sun Tzu - The Art of the War[/RIGHT]

By assuming that was caught on September 22, 1980, Iran showed that was completely unprepared for the war, and had ignored all the signs that a conflict could occur, since the hostilities between Iraq and Iran were occurring from the day September 4.

Between day 4 and day 22 from several sources say some aircraft from both sides were shot down near the border between both countries, The Iranians source had said that Iraq fighters as reconnaissance MiG 21R would be crossing the border for the purpose of performing the reconnaissance from Iran, which itself could characterizes likely a threat from about a ground invasion threat , even before that the Iran's hadn't been mobilized the Army.

At this time the Iranians had been slowly restoring their air capabilities since day 4, and that before the attack of 22 September Iran had managed to put into operation about 12 F 14A Tomcat and maybe something like 40 F 4 Phantom II, however in respect to F 14A most of these were still with its radars AWG 9 out of operation, which made them rely almost exclusively on ground control for interceptions.

However on September 22 Iraq had stroke heavily Iran with surprise, at least no interceptors F 14A took off again't the Iraq task force. And two hours after the beginning of the Iraq attack , the air bases of Al Kut and Al Shai'bah were hit by F 4E Phantom II from Iran.

From one way or another both sides surprised and were surprised.

The preparation of an attack mission, even more against air bases that should be on high alert, with fighters on standby or on patrol as well as the air defenses positioned , is not the same as attacking a column of trucks near the border. Even on Al Shaibah there weren't the MiG 25 PDS and MiG 23 MLfrom USSR, but still it would not be an easy target.

However on day 22 the Iraq attack was a surprise by Iran , on day 23 there was the Iraq that were surprised since the Iran attack with: 140 F 4 Phantom II and F 5E / F Tiger II with the escort of 60 F 14A Tomcat. According to Iraq sources that was a surprise since it was not expected any reaction of the Iran Air Force in less than 48 hours from Iraq offensive.

However it would be critical to the success of operations from Iraq after the 22 day use of MiG 25RB in reconnaissance missions both as photographs as signal and emissions electronics from forward positions and strategic targets in Iran, once the MiG 21R would be limited in presence of F 4E Phantom II and F 14A Tomcat even with the AWG 9 radar out operation. In the same way that Iraq should deny the use of RF 4E Phantom by Iran, and this would be useful for the MiG 25 PDS.

In the case of the MiG 25 PDS / RB could be in Al Shai'bah AB this would be in order to carry out missions both land and maritime reconnaissance, and in the case of these interceptor MiG 25 PDS could also serve as escorts for both supersonic bombers Tu 22 Blinder and other tactical strike aircraft that have a mission to cut the flow of oil from Iran, as well as the import of fuel from Iran, in the case of the F 4D / E Phantom II with its medium range missiles AIM 7E to try to stop them.

Should be a highly priority mission from Iraq had been stopping the oil refine, the export and the fuel import from Iran, since after this the entire military and economics resources from Iran would be collapses.

An important factor would be for Iran that Iraq should not start a war without first receiving the MiG 25PDS/RB, which should only occur at the end of 1981, however if the MiG 25RB/PDS were already in Iraq in secret, even though were the Soviet Union under the colors of Iraq, the result would be the best for Iraq, since this possibility could surprise Iran with an offensive in 1980 and still count on the resources of the MiG 25PDS/RB.

For the Soviet Union were denied that MiG 25 and pilots would be them, the result would be a huge propaganda from soviet technology superiority of their MiG's against the most advanced fighter of the West, F 14A Tomcat.

Only a few years earlier, in 1976 the Soviet Union had been humiliated by the desertion of a MiG 25 PDS in Japan, the U.S. revealed most of the its secrets from MiG 25PDS to demonstrate that soviet technologies used in this fighter were so outdated.

So the Soviet Union to regain the prestige of its then most powerful and famous fighter as MiG 25 would be at least a possibility quite reasonable, since the few F 14A Tomcat from Iran would be with its AWG 9 radar and AIM 54A Phoenix missiles off operation.

Which would make the Tomcat easy preys for MiG 25 PDS Foxbat with their long-distance missiles AA 6 Acrid, and the MiG 25 RB attack/reconnaissance almost impossible to be intercept by the most advanced fighter of the West, the F 14A Tomcat.

Once the controversy would be in this hypothetical event if the radars AWG 9 from F 14A would or not be operating when the MiG-25 swept the Tomcats from skies ?

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maurobaggio

are you even reading any of my or sens's replies?

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Maybe the F-14As in IRIAF service were far less of an issue than we are led to think?

Sorry but that quote does not answer my question in any way.
What were Saddam's objectives in that war, in your opinion?

Sorry but how do you want to discuss that something has failed if you don't even know the goals?

[RIGHT]'It's a shame that can not lose both.'[/RIGHT]
[RIGHT]Heinz Alfred Kissinger
[/RIGHT]
[RIGHT](Kissinger's comment about the Iran / Iraq War).[/RIGHT]

Perhaps the biggest problem about analyzing the Iran / Iraq War would be not fall into the trap of believing that this war was conducted by radical governments that had used this as a way to maintain control over their nations claiming territorial or religious reasons.

After all it is not uncommon to find historical descriptions that wars were only required in order to distract people's attention on the problems of the country, perhaps as a more recent example could be cited of Falkland’s / Malvinas War in 1982.

However every one has opinions, even if this is not clever. But as I was asked about this issue there is my humble opinion about this:

With the Iran revolution in 1979, several countries of the region Gulf, many such monarchical regime had been seen the Iran revolution as a potential threat against their regimes.

The biggest threat to these nations would come from the immense oil resources of Iran that could be used as a source of funds to finance and support revolutions in those countries.


Picture above:during the World War II it became clear that oil was essential to the war effort, and without which the war would be lost. Thus when starting the Cold War, both the U.S. and the Soviet Union had been tried to ensure the sources of this resource, as well trying to deny the other side such essential resource.

Thus the Iraq with new government from Saddam Hussein had predicted that could obtain both economic and political support of those nations to take action against the Iran, and to keep the occupied territories that would take with the invasion.

Without its oil resources the Iran revolutionary government would not be able to expand its revolution to other countries of the Gulf, if it had this purpose.

Iraq had started the war against the Iran to occupy the major oil fields from that country, that was the initial goal of the Iraq, however as the Iraq intended to keep these in the medium and long term it might be the most important issue to answer.

Iraq had plans to obtain an advanced program of chemical weapons, as well as the main program would be gain the ability to build nuclear weapons, which would thus all conditions Iraq could keep the occupied territories from Iran indefinitely in view of Iraq.

The nuclear weapons programs could given to Iraq the military supremacy over the Iran in long term as Israel had obtained with nuclear weapons to secure their territories, despite that were useless in 1973 to avoid the Yom Kippur War once the Soviet Union supported the other side.

With the revolutionary government of Iran should be isolated from its main economic resource that was the oil, both the occupation of the oil fields as well as the attacks on maritime oil terminals, could easily paralyze Iran's economy as well as its armed forces, which in fact could cripple any attempts to retake in the territories occupied by Iraq.

Without producing or refining the oil since its refineries facilities as well as the terminals that could bring fuel to Iran would be under constant attack from Iraq Air Force, Iran would not be able to mobilize military forces to repel the invasion and occupation, and would be able to just launch guerrillas attacks against the Iraqi Army in the territory occupied by it.

http://i8.tinypic.com/25gghtv.jpg

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/124824-islamic-republic-iran-airforce-naval-army-aviation-picture-thread.html[/CENTER]
Picture above: in the ground in the first view an AH 1T Cobra equipped with rocket launchers, and beside this another AH 1T Cobra equipped with missiles launchers from ATGW TOW, both being overflown by a Bell 214 helicopter transport. The helicopter transport from Iran had an essential function at the beginning of the War

Saddam had at least a effective strategy to win the against Iran, and the main goal of success for the strategy would be the elimination in the early days of the war of the Iran Air Force, or at least the to establish the air superiority over the Iran Air Force.

Due to the power of the Iran Air Force before the revolution in 1979, this would be in the event of an invasion the first to counter attack, and this would at its responsibility the protection of high-priority targets such as those for the production and refining from oil, since without fuel throughout the country would collapse as well as the regularly Iran Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air Force) or the new revolutionary forces.


Picture above: such demonstration of the capabilities from Iran Air Force a KC 707 refuels an F 5E/F Tiger II in the first view, in the center using a tail-mounted refueling boom for F 4E Phantom II while an F 14A Tomcat using the other probe/drogue had demonstrated the capabilities from the Iran Air Force.

As the Armed Forces from Iran were in a chaotic situation due to revolution, especially Iran Air Force, Iraq had launched the main offensive on 22 September from 1980.

However the heavy counter attack on 23 September and the others that followed by Iran Air Force against the Iraq had showed that Air Force was not demobilized as predicted in the early war plans from Iraq.

Picture above:a formation of F 4E Phantom II from Iran Air Force. This type had formed the backbone of the Air Force of Iran, both in air defense and attack missions as tactical and strategic. The F 4D/E Phantom II had been conducted many missions of tactical and strategic attack against Iraq using AGM 65A Maverick missiles and laser-guided bombs LGB Paveway.

This almost unbelievable Intelligence failure about the situation assessment from Iran Air Force , on which Iraq allegedly had received it from at least an important ally.

Whose detailed reports that mention about the Iran Air Force it would be practically out of combat, even the Soviet Union believed those reports, since it maintained its contingent near future air combat zone. The Soviets had received a proof in early 80’s about the saying capitalist: there is no free lunch.

Although this “miscalculation” from intelligence reports from an important ally, Iraq had started the land invasion from Iran, despite Iraq did not establish air superiority, and even made this invasion under heavy attacks from Iran Air Force and from attack helicopters of the Iran Army . Those attacks from Iran Air Force and the Iran Army had saved time for the deployment of land forces to counter the Iraq invasion, which kept the offensive from Iraq despite only after the Iraq had penetrated deep in the Iran territory.

Despite Iraq had penetrated deep in Iran territory, it was keep far from the range of Iraq forces the main oil fields from Iran.


Picture above: almost eight years of this war were both sides practically at a standstill, in which both sides hadn't been secured the conditions to ensure a victory, however both sides had enormous human and material losses, and more than a million people were killed the conflict.

As Iraq had not been able to stop the production and refining of oil from Iran, or even the fuel import for Iran through the maritime terminals from Persian Gulf, Iran was able to perform a counter attack with ground forces since for this should be indispensable items as fuel, and even by Air Force as Iran Navy, and were able to release the occupied territories by Iraq in the beginning of the War.

Once Iraq had not achieved the expected objectives, Saddam began to seek a ceasefire around 1981, which were not accepted by Iran. In this case there could be several hypotheses, but among those that the ceasefire would be used by Iraq to buy time, and thus this time could modernize and expand its armed forces that had been funded by their allies for a new offensive in the future, while the revolutionary government from Iran would be isolated from main powerful countries.

In the side of the Iran there were assumptions that Iran had been interested to continue the war because seemed the opportunity of victory, in view of the revolutionary government of Iran, that could ended in favor to Iran, and with this ‘to free’ the Shia population from Iraq, which made up the majority of the population of the same, and by ‘coincidence’ large parts of the oil fields from Iraq.

The prevailing sense were that for the U.S. and others West countries had been strong supported Iraq to win the war against Iran, but the occupation of the oil fields from Iran by Iraq military forces and Iran's military collapse as consequence, must certainly would not be the U.S. interest.


Picture above:despite all the controversy about how Iran had been managed to maintain its highly complex equipment with U.S. origin, as the F 14A Tomcat equipped with AIM 54A Phoenix missiles in the image above, however in 1986 it was revealed through scandal Iran-gates that U.S. supplied weapons and equipment clandestinely to Iran during the war.

This event could lead the revolutionary government from Iran to approach the Soviet Union through any offer of military aid to regain the territories occupied by Iraq, or even lead to another revolution in Iran in this case pro-Soviet Union, since the rejection of the people of Iran to the U.S. and others West countries were very high, and increased further with the War with Iraq.

For U.S. high priority should be keep the Soviet Union as far as possible from the Persian Gulf and the nations that comprised this region, for which the flow of oil that much depended must of the West economies.

In that case of Iran or even Iraq could became satellites from Soviet Union, this event would lead to major instability in the Persian Gulf ,once the Soviet Union had no interest in producing oil and much less to the U.S. and its allies.

With this hypothetical breakdown about the production of oil from the Persian Gulf most of nations pro-US could be highly affected, and with West economic could stall because the high prices of the oil or even the lack of this resource, in this circumstances even China could came back for the Soviet Union side.

In this case the Cold War could end in the early 80’s, however in these circumstances would be the Soviet Union that would celebrate the victory.

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You got that from the Iranian Propaganda department?

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You got that from the Iranian Propaganda department?

I don't think so. However if it were prepared in this department, it occurred before the Iran Revolution in 1979. So at best in my opinion, who elaborated this must had been fired when the new administration came to the top. Because of this I'm curious:

Is that the version of the Department of Propaganda from Iran about the War with Iraq?

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how could it be from before 1979 when they talk about events in the 1980s?

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I;ll help you locate the bits.


Perhaps the biggest problem about analyzing the Iran / Iraq War would be not fall into the trap of believing that this war was conducted by radical governments that had used this as a way to maintain control over their nations claiming territorial or religious reasons.

that's exactly what it was.

After all it is not uncommon to find historical descriptions that wars were only required in order to distract people's attention on the problems of the country, perhaps as a more recent example could be cited of Falkland’s / Malvinas War in 1982.

both saddam and khomeini came to power in 1979 and were in a precarious position.

However every one has opinions, even if this is not clever. But as I was asked about this issue there is my humble opinion about this:

With the Iran revolution in 1979, several countries of the region Gulf, many such monarchical regime had been seen the Iran revolution as a potential threat against their regimes.

The biggest threat to these nations would come from the immense oil resources of Iran that could be used as a source of funds to finance and support revolutions in those countries.

those countries had even more immense oil resources than Iran. But yes Iran was a threat to their internal stability.

Thus the Iraq with new government from Saddam Hussein had predicted that could obtain both economic and political support of those nations to take action against the Iran, and to keep the occupied territories that would take with the invasion.

Thus the new government of Iran had predicted that it can artillery strike against Iraq and arm and fund a coup / uprising against Iraq and had predicted that it could keep the occupied territories that it would take after the Iraqi regime is overthrown.

Without its oil resources the Iran revolutionary government would not be able to expand its revolution to other countries of the Gulf, if it had this purpose.

Without its oil resources, the Iraqi regime could not help the pro-shah elements to regain control of Iran.

Iraq had started the war against the Iran to occupy the major oil fields from that country, that was the initial goal of the Iraq, however as the Iraq intended to keep these in the medium and long term it might be the most important issue to answer.

Iran had started artillery and air bombardment of Iraq in the spring of 1980 and assassination attempts against Iraqi leaders and blowing up hospitals and the Rafidain Bank in Baghdad in order to topple the Iraqi government and obtain major oil fields from that country. That was the initial goal of the Iran, however as Iran intended to keep these in the medium and long term it might be the most important issue to answer.

Iraq had plans to obtain an advanced program of chemical weapons, as well as the main program would be gain the ability to build nuclear weapons, which would thus all conditions Iraq could keep the occupied territories from Iran indefinitely in view of Iraq.

Iran had plans to obtain an advanced program of chemical and nuclear weapons, with which it would be able to occupy and keep all areas of Iraq indefinitely in the view of Iran.

The nuclear weapons programs could given to Iraq the military supremacy over the Iran in long term as Israel had obtained with nuclear weapons to secure their territories, despite that were useless in 1973 to avoid the Yom Kippur War once the Soviet Union supported the other side.

The nuclear weapons programs, and the US arms from the 1970s could given to Iran the military supremacy over the Iraq in long term as Israel had obtained with nuclear weapons to secure their territories, despite that were useless in 1980 to avoid the war with Iraq once the USA withdrew arms supplies.

With the revolutionary government of Iran should be isolated from its main economic resource that was the oil, both the occupation of the oil fields as well as the attacks on maritime oil terminals, could easily paralyze Iran's economy as well as its armed forces, which in fact could cripple any attempts to retake in the territories occupied by Iraq.

With the revolutionary government of Baathist Iraq, should be isolated from its main economic resource... and thus Iranian attacks by artillery and funding for uprisings were focused on southern Iraq and Iraq's ports areas (Basra, Amara). could easily paralyse Iraq's economy as well as its armed forces, which in fact would cripple any attempts to retake the territories occupied by Iran.

Without producing or refining the oil since its refineries facilities as well as the terminals that could bring fuel to Iran would be under constant attack from Iraq Air Force, Iran would not be able to mobilize military forces to repel the invasion and occupation, and would be able to just launch guerrillas attacks against the Iraqi Army in the territory occupied by it.

Without producing or refining the oil since its refineries facilities as well as the terminals that could bring fuel to Iraq would be under constant attack from Iranian Air Force, Iraq would not be able to mobilize military forces to repel the invasion and occupation, and would be able to just launch guerrillas attacks against the Iranian Army in the territory occupied by it.

[
Picture above: in the ground in the first view an AH 1T Cobra equipped with rocket launchers, and beside this another AH 1T Cobra equipped with missiles launchers from ATGW TOW, both being overflown by a Bell 214 helicopter transport. The helicopter transport from Iran had an essential function at the beginning of the War

despite a far superior military supply and having 3x the territory and 3x the population with a deep strategic depth full of mountains and obstacles, the Iranian military failed to take the Initiative against a much smaller and worse equipped foe.

Saddam had at least a effective strategy to win the against Iran, and the main goal of success for the strategy would be the elimination in the early days of the war of the Iran Air Force, or at least the to establish the air superiority over the Iran Air Force.

Khomeini had at least a effective strategy to win against the Iraq, and the main goal of success for the strategy would be the armed support and artillery support for an uprising by Iraq's shia populace and terrorist attacks and assassinations.

Due to the power of the Iran Air Force before the revolution in 1979, this would be in the event of an invasion the first to counter attack, and this would at its responsibility the protection of high-priority targets such as those for the production and refining from oil, since without fuel throughout the country would collapse as well as the regularly Iran Armed Forces (Army, Navy, Air Force) or the new revolutionary forces.

Despite the high tech armaments and quantity of weapons of the Iranian Air Force it failed in destroying Iraq's ground or air forces.

Picture above: such demonstration of the capabilities from Iran Air Force a KC 707 refuels an F 5E/F Tiger II in the first view, in the center using a tail-mounted refueling boom for F 4E Phantom II while an F 14A Tomcat using the other probe/drogue had demonstrated the capabilities from the Iran Air Force.

Despite having this capability the Iranians never even managed to hit an Iraqi Battalion HQ from the air.

As the Armed Forces from Iran were in a chaotic situation due to revolution, especially Iran Air Force, Iraq had launched the main offensive on 22 September from 1980.

The armed forces of Iraq where in a chaotic situation in 1979 as saddam was purging communists and unwanted baathists and daawa supporters. Iran had launched its artillery attacks and terrorist attacks against iraq in the spring of 1980, and the Iraqis could not respond by creating a protective buffer zone from the Iranian attacks until later that year in September 1980.

However the heavy counter attack on 23 September and the others that followed by Iran Air Force against the Iraq had showed that Air Force was not demobilized as predicted in the early war plans from Iraq.

The Iranian attacks against Iraqi Air Force bases in 23rd september demonstrated the strength of Iraq's defensive measures and only one transport aircraft was destroyed on the ground and several attackers shot down. Iran would never again repeat this folly for the duration of the war.

Picture above:a formation of F 4E Phantom II from Iran Air Force. This type had formed the backbone of the Air Force of Iran, both in air defense and attack missions as tactical and strategic. The F 4D/E Phantom II had been conducted many missions of tactical and strategic attack against Iraq using AGM 65A Maverick missiles and laser-guided bombs LGB Paveway.

But with no success, comparably the first sign of successful use of PGMs were by Iraq post 1985 using Mirages and SU22s.

This almost unbelievable Intelligence failure about the situation assessment from Iran Air Force , on which Iraq allegedly had received it from at least an important ally.

Is from a book of fiction... especially since the Iraqis were very careful in building up an air defence network all along the border, and the iranian aircraft were bombing Iraq already since the summer of 1980 well before "22nd september" Iraqi counterattack.

Whose detailed reports that mention about the Iran Air Force it would be practically out of combat, even the Soviet Union believed those reports, since it maintained its contingent near future air combat zone. The Soviets had received a proof in early 80’s about the saying capitalist: there is no free lunch.

Except the Iraqis... who were being bombed daily by Iranian aircaft in the run up to the Iraqi counterattack in 22nd september.

Although this “miscalculation” from intelligence reports from an important ally, Iraq had started the land invasion from Iran, despite Iraq did not establish air superiority, and even made this invasion under heavy attacks from Iran Air Force and from attack helicopters of the Iran Army . Those attacks from Iran Air Force and the Iran Army had saved time for the deployment of land forces to counter the Iraq invasion, which kept the offensive from Iraq despite only after the Iraq had penetrated deep in the Iran territory.

The Iraqi armed forces went in only as deep into Iran as required to build up a buffer zone against the Iranian artillery which had bombed and destroyed Iraqi villages and towns all along the border before september 1980.

Despite Iraq had penetrated deep in Iran territory, it was keep far from the range of Iraq forces the main oil fields from Iran.

Despite Iran's 6 year effort to invade Iraq it was kept far from Iraq's producing oil wells, despite those wells being very close to Iran's border. A testament to the Iraqis defensive efforts despite the odds against an enemy 3x their size.

[B]Picture above: almost eight years of this war were both sides practically at a standstill, in which both sides hadn't been secured the conditions to ensure a victory, however both sides had enormous human and material losses, and more than a million people were killed the conflict.[/B
]

despite one side having strategic depth, 3x the population, 3x the economy and much better weapons!

As Iraq had not been able to stop the production and refining of oil from Iran, or even the fuel import for Iran through the maritime terminals from Persian Gulf, Iran was able to perform a counter attack with ground forces since for this should be indispensable items as fuel, and even by Air Force as Iran Navy, and were able to release the occupied territories by Iraq in the beginning of the War.

As Iran failed in stopping Iraq from producing oil and refining... Iraq managed to make the counterattack against Iran and create a defensive buffer zone inside Iranian territory. Iranian invasion attempts were halted for the next 6 years by Iraq's effective defensive barrier.

Once Iraq had not achieved the expected objectives, Saddam began to seek a ceasefire around 1981, which were not accepted by Iran. In this case there could be several hypotheses, but among those that the ceasefire would be used by Iraq to buy time, and thus this time could modernize and expand its armed forces that had been funded by their allies for a new offensive in the future, while the revolutionary government from Iran would be isolated from main powerful countries.

Once Iran had not achieved the expected objective of overthrowing saddam, khomeini began to send hundreds of thousands of children to die in human wave attacks. Once this floundered and Iran's US weapons depleted over several years in futile attacks... they accepted peace.


In the side of the Iran there were assumptions that Iran had been interested to continue the war because seemed the opportunity of victory, in view of the revolutionary government of Iran, that could ended in favor to Iran, and with this ‘to free’ the Shia population from Iraq, which made up the majority of the population of the same, and by ‘coincidence’ large parts of the oil fields from Iraq.

THE ONLY ONE TRUTHFUL PARAGRAPH! WOW!

The prevailing sense were that for the U.S. and others West countries had been strong supported Iraq to win the war against Iran, but the occupation of the oil fields from Iran by Iraq military forces and Iran's military collapse as consequence, must certainly would not be the U.S. interest.

ok.


Picture above:despite all the controversy about how Iran had been managed to maintain its highly complex equipment with U.S. origin, as the F 14A Tomcat equipped with AIM 54A Phoenix missiles in the image above, however in 1986 it was revealed through scandal Iran-gates that U.S. supplied weapons and equipment clandestinely to Iran during the war.

despite the "recent" claims.. only 150 Iraqi fixed wing aircraft were lost to all causes during the 1980-88 war.

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I even kept the broken english intact in my replies! LOL.

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I even kept the broken english intact in my replies! LOL.

Maybe one day I can give you some lessons in English language, but this moment however this will have to wait.

I know most of the facts that you mentioned, however you look at a war that affected one way or another the entirely World as if it had been a local war. But even the U.S. and the Soviet Union had been involved in this, and many times even seemed that they were supporting the same side, however in fact both superpowers were not supporting neither side.

Perhaps you have spent long time studying the English language that you did find time to learn this:

"The Injury is the last weapon of the defeated."

So when someone criticize your proficiency in the English language mention this, after all we are talking about aviation here, although the English language has been slaughtered every day here by us, still the English language will persevere and continue to bring the world together, or separates it at once.

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Posts: 516

Maurobaggio,

You do realize that the F-14 image that you used is a 1/32 scale model? Fred Shammas's model images are forever being passed off on the internet as images of real aircraft.

http://www.largescaleplanes.com/Photostory/FredShammas/F-14/F-14.php

You're talking to an old man who can barely see that was F 14A Tomcat in the picture.

However young man, this was the only thing that you saw, or some mysterious reason you came to read at least the first paragraph?

Let me guess your answer for this:

After seeing that it was the image of an assembly from scale model you do not lost your time in reading the text, after all should be another foolish.

A long time ago it was said:

"Do not judge a book by its cover."

As I am old, I do not judge another book by its cover, however when I was young I always did this.

Member for

13 years 4 months

Posts: 516

how could it be from before 1979 when they talk about events in the 1980s?

In fact a war between Iran and Iraq were foresee already in 1978 , and this was published in a book in this same year .

However the authors analysis of this book , in 1984 there were a large uprising in Arab countries , including : Iraq , Kuwait and Saudi Arabia .

These revolts against the monarchical governments from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would be encouraged by Soviet Union with intent to remove of the power those rulers. In this scenario such Iraq , Kuwait and Saudi Arabia had been formed a coalition that would go into war with Iran in 1984 . However in this scenario Iran would still be ruled by the Shah , despite this had been suffering an assassination attempt in conjunction with a coup .

In the authors' analysis of those hypothetical events had been sponsored by the Soviet Union with a view to causing a collapse in oil production. However the book is not about the war between Iran and other countries , but on a hypothetical World War III that could occur in 1985 .

As World War III has not been happen until today the analysis authors could be considered as erroneous as well as the fact that there were revolutions in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait , but indeed the Iran monarchical government of the Shah was removed for a popular revolution . However those who read the book could also reach a very different opinion about the same because others forecasts.

But the Iraq/Iran war started in 1980 , and the fact that Iraq had received such huge financial aid from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia during the war , besides other aids that could have been interpreted as actually a military alliance, certainly its not an accurate forecast of the authors, but it would be closer to reality in 1984 about the Iran/Iraq War.

Another important fact that the authors did not foresee was the invasion of the Afghanistan by the Soviet Union on December 24, 1979 .

HACKETT, General Sir John, BARRACLOUGH, Brigadier Sir John, BURROW, Sir Bernard, HUNT, Brigadier Kenneth, McGEOCH, Vice-Admiral Sir Ian, MACRAE, Norman, STRAWSON, Major-General John. THE THIRD WORD WAR - AUGUST 1985. New York - USA: Macmillan Publishing, 1978.

Member for

6 years 11 months

Posts: 19

Actually there are too many fallacies on this thread which is made me confusing replay on which one or start with who!
However let me write something here and at least start with it, we didn't had general in former Iraqi air force named (Ahmad Rushdi, real name Ahmad Sadik) this name or person does not exist at all, the second thing Iraqi MIG-25's pilots they were never fly less than 20 or 21Km with Mach 2+ for recon missions, and Mach 1+ for RB's during their missions while they done the turn back with Mach 2+, in this case no F-4 or F-5 or F-14 can be able to scramble and take off to intercept them (from detection on radar till leaving target area) and even so it would be ineffective intercepting task, Capt.Thaer who have been shot down over Isfahan city was in correct condition "altitude and speed " but Iranian was already installed their defense system top the mountain which was almost 3000 feet.
The Iraqi MIG-25PD/PDS their duties were limited inside Iranian territory limited to interception missions, in some cases based on intelligence informations or according to the apparent activity inside Iranian air space and depends on the type of target. Using same strategic same technique penetrate Iranian air space and turn back with Mach 2+, No Iraqi MIG-25 were shot down by any Iranian aircraft during the 8 years of war or even after these allegations have no basis of true.
In fact there is many thing i would like to answer it or replay on it but hopefully in next time.

Member for

13 years 4 months

Posts: 516

Actually there are too many fallacies on this thread which is made me confusing replay on which one or start with who!
However let me write something here and at least start with it, we didn't had general in former Iraqi air force named (Ahmad Rushdi, real name Ahmad Sadik) this name or person does not exist at all, ...
In fact there is many thing i would like to answer it or replay on it but hopefully in next time.

Welcome with your contribution.
Perhaps such reasonable reason why former pilots and others military personnel from Iraq Air Force has not been revealed their identities could be due about its own safety and their families, since even after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003 there were a campaign to murder former pilots and others from Iraq Air Force.
That campaign had been supposedly assigned by such Iran secret service as revenge the war between Iran / Iraq in the 80s and it were described in the article above inside the quote.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...1#.T4xLCLN1DkU

Here is a good reason why people like Tom Cooper and other ones ran/run into problems to find former IrAF people/pilots to report about their time in service in general and for 1980-88 especially.

I could never understand why Iran would have expected the Iraq were occupied by the US and UK to then could start its alleged campaign of revenge against former pilots and others from Iraqi Air Force, once this supposed Iran Secret Service should have been operating under a great threat that would be represented by the huge apparatus of intelligence and counter intelligence from US and UK that would have been set up in Iraq after its occupation.

About some reason could be mentioned that after the end of the Gulf War in 1991 the Iraq had been totally unable to threat the Iran, besides the Iraq were already in civil war, so after the US invasion of Iraq the alleged campaign from Iran against the former pilots from Iraq would be very more difficult than before the invasion in 2003.

However the fear certainly has been prevents many to reveal its facts about the Iran/Iraq War or even the Gulf War in 1991, otherwise at the best its formers military's from Iraq could use fake names to protect their identities what unfortunately has been making impossible to authenticated its facts.

Member for

6 years 11 months

Posts: 19

Welcome with your contribution.
Perhaps such reasonable reason why former pilots and others military personnel from Iraq Air Force has not been revealed their identities could be due about its own safety and their families, since even after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003 there were a campaign to murder former pilots and others from Iraq Air Force.
That campaign had been supposedly assigned by such Iran secret service as revenge the war between Iran / Iraq in the 80s and it were described in the article above inside the quote.

Thanks,
Yes this is one of the main reason why most former Iraqi AF members they don't want to participate on internet or even interviews.
But as i can see this person announced publicly he is real name Ahmad Sadik!


I could never understand why Iran would have expected the Iraq were occupied by the US and UK to then could start its alleged campaign of revenge against former pilots and others from Iraqi Air Force, once this supposed Iran Secret Service should have been operating under a great threat that would be represented by the huge apparatus of intelligence and counter intelligence from US and UK that would have been set up in Iraq after its occupation.

Behind this campaign there were several reasons including retaliatory and political, Iran has received severe hit by former Iraqi Air Force cost Iranian government billions of dollars in that time and force them to end the war in unenviable status. Therefore they have been waiting for this moment to avenge and killing of Iraqi pilots "not to mention Iraqi pilots were exposed to the worst kinds of torture during the period of their captivity in Iran" this desire for revenge it was obvious by Iranian with us during sending Iraqi aircraft to Iran in 1991, they were intends to capture us.
However, I do not blame or accuse Mr Tom Cooper in most case, but i would to suggest him to correct what rolls at least for his reputation.
I have read some of what he published and to me i did understand and note that was't his mistake, the problem lies with who transfer story to him.
Anyway, 8 years of war and hundreds thousands of sorties can't be brief here in several lines.

Member for

13 years 4 months

Posts: 516

This was a good find.

Indeed was so good that image and due this has been remains in it post after all this time elapsed, after all to illustrate it was perfect and I could found out another better than this available in the Internet , so if you have been seen something better please inform us the link.

You may also want to give your opinion about what you think of the campaign of murders from former pilots and personnel of the Iraq Air Force, therefore I suggest reading the article in post below:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...1#.T4xLCLN1DkU

Here is a good reason why people like Tom Cooper and other ones ran/run into problems to find former IrAF people/pilots to report about their time in service in general and for 1980-88 especially.

Member for

6 years 8 months

Posts: 25

I was surfing the net when I came across this article. I must agree with F-1XFP that the thread is covering multiple issues so instead of sticking to the actual topic of F-4 Vs. Mig-25 which I do not have much information about it, I will go through many of the other issues mentioned!!!:eagerness: But I can say that the Mirage was extensively used during the war in comparison to the MiG-25.
1)No. of MiG-25s shot down by Iran. I must sort of concur with our friend a89 regarding the numbers but this is what I have found out:
-MiG-25 over Khark Island area by Phoenix missile piloted by Shahram Rostami F-14
-MiG-25 shot down by HQ2 over the city of Esfahan
-MiG-25 Chased by F-14 pilot Jahanbakhsh as it fled towards north of Iran. The following days it was reported by Arabian newspaper (Sharq al-osat or something) that a Mig-25 ran out of fuel and crashed near the city of Van in Turkey that same day as the chase.
-MiG-25 shot by 20mm gun after the sidewinders failed to fire, pilot Zarenejad F-5. It is reported that the Mig-25 had suffered cabin pressure failure and was flying lower than usual. Another unlikely version is the cabin pressure loss was due to a Phoenix missile explosion near the MiG. The IRIAF did not consider this a confirmed kill as the Mig-25 cleared Iran airspace and its fate was unknown. First time I hear it had been W/O due to hard landing, good to know. And come on guys, undermining the Iranian air force by stating that only 25 rounds hit the MiG? Iranian pilots were trained mainly in US and were the top students over there. They were trained by the best and performed quite well during the war. The Iraqi pilots were also trained well and good pilots, but lacked the better fighter in general when it came to air to air combats. The problem was reduced by the purchase of Mirages with its newer technology on the Matra and Magic AAM considerably, but still the kill ratio of the Tomcats (Not IRIAF to IAF) was close to 30:1!
2)Iran-Iraq war initiator. To cut it short it was Iraq. The long conflict of Arvand River or Shat al-arab, dates back many years before the Iranian revolution. After the revolution in Iran and the new regime bolstering the export of the Shiate revolution to the world seemed an additional concern for Iraq. Combined with Saddam’s ambitions, he tears the Algiers agreement on TV before the official start of the war and aims to take control of the Shat al-Arab, three disputed Islands in the Persian Gulf, Lesser TUNB, Greater TUNB and Abu Musa and annex the oil rich Khuzestan province to Iraq. The goal was to finish the war within 7-10 days. Why Iran is unlikely the instigator, well several reasons. For one, there was a revolution which is much different than a coup when it concerns the transfer of power and internal structure. In a revolution the common people take control while in a coup, one is using an already disciplined army to overthrow the government in which still remains intact if the coup is successful. Also, bear in mind that Saddam was already a figure head for some years in the political arena before he took power in 1979. Despite warnings by the air force regarding the Iraqi ground forces close to the border (during limited air operations inside Iraq in response to Iraqi attacks at the border), the Iranian government couldn’t believe a full scale war was imminent. Two, Interim government cancelled ALL military contracts with US one sided; although, 95% of the funds were paid for 160 F16s, 10 AWACS, 2nd party of 80 F14s,four aircraft carriers and variety of munitions. Three, once the revolution succeeded, the new government was planning on returning the 77 available F-14s which the Americans welcomed immediately but thanks to Saddam they changed their mind. Four, during the first year, the new regime was battling internally with different parties and by battling I mean armed ones, notably in the province of Kurdestan, MEK (which later camped in Iraq, fought against Iran during the war, and shortly after the Iran-Iraq war ended with the support of Iraqi air force performed an operation named Mersad to overthrow the Iranian regime), etc. involving the army. Five, as some mentioned the purging of high ranking officers and several executions; although, I believe maybe not be as many as stated, 2500+? Worse than that was the use of non-military people empowered in the armed forces and junior officers as new commanders. The navy & air force suffered the least in terms of infrastructure; although, after the attempted coup there were executions. Six, several months before the war, the US hostage crisis happened and the military sanctions took effect; therefore, no support was expected on US made military equipment purchases from US. Seven, as stated Iraq attacked with six divisions while Iranian army (ground forces) was almost absent during the first month of the war. The burden fell on to the air force which acted as the army for the first month, hunting tanks and armored vehicles, with the sporadic uncoordinated help of the Iranian Army Aviation Unit, limited mechanized response and small special forces units. Noting the above, who in their right mind will utilize such a frenzied armed forces? It is hard to believe a new regime, engaged in massive internal issues that viewed its own armed forces as a threat to its security in which was planning to put its disbandment to vote in its parliament attacked Iraq with its well-organized and prepared armed forces?
3)No of F-14 lost during the war. I will give you a list of all as far as I know:
2 before the revolution: First one pilot Ali Abedi (Killed) RIO Mr. Peinemann American instructor (ejects), compressor stall. Second one, pilot Gholam Hossein Hashempour RIO Abbas Hazin instructor, inverted spin both bail out safely.
1 after refueling falls into an erected spin. Pilot Jafar Mardani RIO Gholam Hosein Abdolshahi. Both killed. (during war period)
2 fall in Iraqi trap and are shot down by the newly acquired Mirages using Matra missiles on November 24th, 1981. Crew eject safely. Pilots Gholamreza Nezamabadi & Abolfazl Hoshyar.
2 on separate occasions around Khark Island friendly fire. First MIM-23 Hawk pilot Abbas Hazin and RIO Hossein Hosseini (Killed, his parachute ropes wrap around his neck while in water, but suffers heart attack). Second, AAA Khark Island pilot Arsalan Khademi RIO Ahamd Roustaii. Both eject safely.
1 is struck by a missile during a top cover mission inside Iraq. Pilot Hassan Harandi RIO Yadollah Hosseini.
1 Is struck by a Silk Worm surface to sea missile when RIO locks onto it mistaking it for an aircraft and the missile homes on the radar. Pilot Hashem Ale-Agha one of Iran’s top fighter pilots (Killed). RIO Rostampour ejects safely.
1 engaging several Iraqi fighters, the F-14 is sandwich attacked and shot down. Pilot Jafar Bahadoran and RIO eject safely.
1 mechanical failure. Pilot Alireza Betaraf (killed) RIO Khanpour (ejects safely)
1 falls into Iraqi trap. Pilot Bahram Ghaneii RIO Asl Davtalab. Both eject but Asl Davtalab is killed by parachute ropes tangled around his neck.
2 after the war, different dates. First training accident on landing approach, F-14 stalls both crew killed instructor Abu Ata. Second, few minutes after takeoff from Bushehr TAB crashes. Cause N/A both crew killed. Couple of years back I think 2012.
1 was hijacked by pilot Ahmad Moradi Talebi RIO Hassan Najafi flew to Iraq. Najafi becames a POW but Moradi left for Europe. He was later assassinated by an unknown (!!!) gunman on a bridge in front of his wife and child.
If I am not mistaking, all Iraqi kills were done by Mirage F1s except for one, which is said to be done by a MiG-23.
4)The H3 issue. The mission plan is correct as said by Iranians; however, a few notes. Yes Iraq had moved its fighters to H3 to keep them safe from Iranian strikes. Yes, one of the F-4s was hit but landed at a prearranged designated emergency landing runway in a neighboring country (Take a wild guess!!!). No, the number of aircrafts damaged or destroyed was much less than claimed by Iranians; however, the mission and psychological effects were immense. In retaliation, years later a lone Mig-25 bombed the Neka Power Plant successfully in north of Iran along the Caspian Sea. Look up the city, the distance from Iraq to Neka shows what an impressive mission it was.
5)Kaman 99 The preplanned attack didn’t mean Iran was planning to attack Iraq! It means that plans and scenarios are drawn well in advance and changed upon new intelligence every year based on the threat. Even right now, the air force has preplans on Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Turkey, Azerbaijan, etc. Depending on the political relations, the vastness of the response is planned. As Iran and Iraq had problems from long time before, the plans were already in place just in case there was an attack. 300 sorties were flown the next day after Iraq attacked Iran air bases causing little damage due to the hardened shelters. In Kaman 99 the F14s created a barrier from Urumiyeh to Khark Island, one F14 per 50NM. The IRIAF was so effective that six days after the war broke out Saddam requested a cease fire which was denied by the regime. After 67days, Iraq’s navy was out of the picture and had nothing to say until the end of the war. Iran’s air supremacy is evident throughout the first two years of the war and as it prolonged Iraq being able to replenish its fighters and adding the Mirage to its arsenal after the first year of the war, it slowly managed to balance off the odds. In the 7th and 8th year of the war, Iraqi fighters were attacking in large numbers, although the IRIAF managed to ward off many of the attacks. By then, due to shortage of operational Phoenix missiles, the only credible missile available to the Tomcats, the concentration of the F-14s went towards the Persian Gulf escorting ships, oil tankers and protection of Khark Island. During that time, Iraq managed to bomb Khark and destroy oil tankers on several occasions. The IRIAF is credited some 200+ kills mostly by the F-14s, about 95% (185-190) in which 85% of them were with the Phoenix missile. Maybe 10-15 kills are credited to F4s and F5s. An engagement of multiple Iraqi fighters against one F14 was routine (where do u think the US navy came up with idea of promoting a movie about the F-14s?!! TopGun). The Iraqi air force truly feared the F-14 and if only Saddam had waited a bit longer for Iran to return the F-14s it had, then the outcome of the war would have been quite different. The F-14s flew over 65,000 sorties during the almost 8yr war. The air force played a very major role for both countries, Iran throughout the war and Iraq the second half; although, as stated Iraq heavily focused correctly on its army and ground attacks. The Iranian ground forces suffered because of parallel management and lack of coordination between the army and the IRGC/Basij(Volunteers). The Iraqi army was coordinated, disciplined and used classic military tactics while the Iranian army couldn’t utilize the parallel available force. Iranian ground casualty was immense by use of human waves, not in the army though, but by the Basij and IRGC. The army loss is around 78,000 soldiers while in total it is said that up to 400,000 may have been killed during the war on the Iranian side. At end, Iran’s deteriorating high tech military equipment forced them to accept the resolution as Iraq kept on replenishing its military funded by Arabian countries. By the end of the war, Iraqi military was even stronger than when it started the war; hence, the ability to occupy Kuwait in less than two years. Although, perhaps Kuwait was not much of an adversary!!