MiG-25 vs F-4 in Iran-Iraq war

Read the forum code of contact

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 19

Check out where is this city located on the map 38°29'44.5"N 43°22'07.9"E seriously?

Member for

15 years 11 months

Posts: 2,814

I will explain to you why it didn't happen. first open google map and check Abu Ubaydah air base on the map N32 28 45 E45 46 17 and see how it's close from Iranian border, while the Iraqi MIG-25RB's take off they start to climb up to 21 Km over Kut city, then they heading out with Mach 1+ or 2+ to Iranian airspace, with good prior knowledge of Iranian radar sites coverage area they do avoid any spotted and heading toward to their targets while Iran didn't had AWACS, in this case the Iraqi MIG-25s will reach the target without alarm Iranian air force, even if the Iranian AF spotted it will be too late to take off and intercept them because any Iranian F-4 or F14 pilot sit in the cockpit need at lest a 3 to 4 minutes to take off, plus long time needed to reach 21 Km altitude? in this time the MIG-25's finished the duty and turn back with Mach 2+, even if the Iranian F-4 or F-14 meet the Iraqi MIG-25's in the sky they would be unable to shot him down because Iranian pilots didn't equipped with flight helmet high attitude nor high altitude anti pressure suit add to that Iranian aircraft whether using AIM-7 Sparrow or Phoenix 54A missiles they can't lock or hit him snap up like this.
With all that the three MIG-25 pilots returned from captivity explained their causes of down was SAM.
That's why Iran didn't shot down any Iraqi MIG-25 in aerial combat.

I could well accept your argument.
What you say could also be applied to the old MiG-25 vs SR-71 arguments - the American spyplane was pretty much invulnerable to the MiG-25 and MiG-31 it seems.

Profile picture for user MSphere

Member for

11 years 10 months

Posts: 8,850

I could well accept your argument.
What you say could also be applied to the old MiG-25 vs SR-71 arguments - the American spyplane was pretty much invulnerable to the MiG-25 and MiG-31 it seems.
History proves you wrong. First lock-on on SR-71 has been achieved on 31-Jan-1986. As the Foxhound pilot claimed, he did not shoot because the Blackbird did not dare to violate Soviet air space. On 03-Jun-1986, six MiG-31s have performed a coordinated trap on an SR-71 over the Barents Sea and achieved multiple lock-ons. This interception has effectively stopped further SR-71 recon missions over the Soviet Union.

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 19


-MiG-25 shot by 20mm gun after the sidewinders failed to fire, pilot Zarenejad F-5. It is reported that the Mig-25 had suffered cabin pressure failure and was flying lower than usual. Another unlikely version is the cabin pressure loss was due to a Phoenix missile explosion near the MiG. The IRIAF did not consider this a confirmed kill as the Mig-25 cleared Iran airspace and its fate was unknown. First time I hear it had been W/O due to hard landing, good to know. And come on guys, undermining the Iranian air force by stating that only 25 rounds hit the MiG? Iranian pilots were trained mainly in US and were the top students over there. They were trained by the best and performed quite well during the war. The Iraqi pilots were also trained well and good pilots, but lacked the better fighter in general when it came to air to air combats.


In fact 3 out of 4 MiG-25 kills were as a result of aerial combat in which two were the result of bad luck for the Iraqi pilots. One suffered cabin pressure failure and shot by F-5 canons. My understanding from this thread is that the MiG-25 was W/O upon landing.

This myths published many times in different adventures way perhaps who published these allegations suffering of Alzheimer's because every time he publish this story he forget what he has written before!
In 2010 he allege
A pair of F-5Es underway on a CAS sortie were ordered to jettison their bombs and vectored to intercept. Only the lead of these two Tigers, flown by Javadpour, managed to catch with the MiG-25: both of his Sidewinders failed to fire, so he selected cannons and fired two long bursts in front of the MiG, spending all of his ammo in the process. The last string of rounds hit the MiG, knocking out one engine and setting it afire. The pilot made an emergency landing at an airfield in northern Iraq. Brig Gen Sadik saw that plane with his own eyes after the landing, and confirmed that it was subsequently shot down.

And as i confirmed before (Brig Gen Sadik) a fictional character does not exist in Iraqi air force at all.
Nearly four year later he back to allege:
Actually, Zare-Nejad and Shabani have just launched for a ground attack when advised about Foxbat's appearance by the GCI. That's why they've had enough fuel for the pursuit.
Secondly, if he would have any kind of clue about MiG-25RB-ops over Iran, or indeed understanding of flying, he would know that for most of such ops, they were operating so much on the verge of their endurance, that the reason they were returning to Iraq at medium altitudes and low speeds - i.e. 'gliding' - was that they were out of fuel. They lacked fuel to descend only after reaching the Iraqi airspace.

And continued to say
Usually, it was so that the Foxbat could approach to within 45-50 or so kilometres from the target, release and then run away at Mach 2.1-2.3 before caught by Iranian interceptors. In that one (on 4 July 1986) case it didn't: it had to decelerate or risk running out of fuel before reaching the Iraqi border. And it had to descend. By accident, there were two F-5Es around: they were actually underway on a CAS sortie and had to jettison their bombs before engaging (a reason more why they run out of fuel 'early').
So, no 'complacent' Foxbat pilot or anything else: the guy did what he could. He even made a safe emergency landing back in Iraq, but the plane was simply too badly damaged for repairs. So, a write off.

Now we got two different story by the same source and different pilot names! (Zare-Nejad and Shabani) and later (Javadpour) became the hero of this kill plus the new story the MIG-25 suffered cabin pressure failure..! So is there a new story looming?


F-14 lost during the war. I will give you a list of all as far as I know:
2 before the revolution: First one pilot Ali Abedi (Killed) RIO Mr. Peinemann American instructor (ejects), compressor stall. Second one, pilot Gholam Hossein Hashempour RIO Abbas Hazin instructor, inverted spin both bail out safely.
1 after refueling falls into an erected spin. Pilot Jafar Mardani RIO Gholam Hosein Abdolshahi. Both killed. (during war period)
2 fall in Iraqi trap and are shot down by the newly acquired Mirages using Matra missiles on November 24th, 1981. Crew eject safely. Pilots Gholamreza Nezamabadi & Abolfazl Hoshyar.
2 on separate occasions around Khark Island friendly fire. First MIM-23 Hawk pilot Abbas Hazin and RIO Hossein Hosseini (Killed, his parachute ropes wrap around his neck while in water, but suffers heart attack). Second, AAA Khark Island pilot Arsalan Khademi RIO Ahamd Roustaii. Both eject safely.
1 is struck by a missile during a top cover mission inside Iraq. Pilot Hassan Harandi RIO Yadollah Hosseini.
1 Is struck by a Silk Worm surface to sea missile when RIO locks onto it mistaking it for an aircraft and the missile homes on the radar. Pilot Hashem Ale-Agha one of Iran’s top fighter pilots (Killed). RIO Rostampour ejects safely.
1 engaging several Iraqi fighters, the F-14 is sandwich attacked and shot down. Pilot Jafar Bahadoran and RIO eject safely.
1 mechanical failure. Pilot Alireza Betaraf (killed) RIO Khanpour (ejects safely)
1 falls into Iraqi trap. Pilot Bahram Ghaneii RIO Asl Davtalab. Both eject but Asl Davtalab is killed by parachute ropes tangled around his neck.
2 after the war, different dates. First training accident on landing approach, F-14 stalls both crew killed instructor Abu Ata. Second, few minutes after takeoff from Bushehr TAB crashes. Cause N/A both crew killed. Couple of years back I think 2012.
1 was hijacked by pilot Ahmad Moradi Talebi RIO Hassan Najafi flew to Iraq. Najafi becames a POW but Moradi left for Europe. He was later assassinated by an unknown (!!!) gunman on a bridge in front of his wife and child.
If I am not mistaking, all Iraqi kills were done by Mirage F1s except for one, which is said to be done by a MiG-23.

I am afraid to tell you the Iranian F-14 even shot down by Su-22 however the Iraqi MIG-21s achieved four kills against the Iranian F-14's.
Early in the war 1980, two Iranian F-14s were surprised by two Iraqi Mig-21 MFs flown by Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 67 Squadron who had come up from below and behind and shot them both down using r-13m missile near Zubaydat area 100 km north east Amarah city.
Month later or so Capt Hassan Bashir MIG-21bis S/N 681 shot down another Iranian F-14 using r-13m missile.
Followed by Maj. Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge (the same pilot who managed to shot down the first Iranian F-5 over Baghdad in 7 of September 1980 and later become the commander of the Iraq Air Force 2003) gun Iranian F-14, the gun camera photos show Iranian F-14 hit by fire allowed the reporters to view it in that time.
Captain Nawfal Shaaban MIG-23ML shot down Iranian F-14 over the gulf North West Bandar Ganaveh using r24 missile.
Captain Mohsen Sebti MIG-23MS shot down Iranian F-14 in March 1982
Captain Khalaf Ahmed Hussein Mirage F-1 shot down Iranian F-14 over the gulf North West Khark Island
Top ace Iraqi pilot who achieved 14 kill 12 of them by his Mirage F1 S/N 4014 Capt Mokhalad Abdul Karim shot down F-14 in 1984.
And many others.
Picture to Lt. Gen Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge
http://www.img.wna-news.com/d2782007.jpg

4)The H3 issue.The mission plan is correct as said by Iranians; however, a few notes. Yes Iraq had moved its fighters to H3 to keep them safe from Iranian strikes. Yes, one of the F-4s was hit but landed at a prearranged designated emergency landing runway in a neighboring country (Take a wild guess!!!). No, the number of aircrafts damaged or destroyed was much less than claimed by Iranians; however, the mission and psychological effects were immense.

Iranian F-4's launched their raids from Syria and they did back to land in Syria as well, they didn't destroyed any Iraqi aircraft it was confusing air raid caused some damage to one MIG-21U no more.

In retaliation, years later a lone Mig-25 bombed the Neka Power Plant successfully in north of Iran along the Caspian Sea. Look up the city, the distance from Iraq to Neka shows what an impressive mission it was.

This missions carried out by Mirage F1s 79Sq Qayyarah/Saddam Airbase AB 35° 45′ 57″ N, 43° 7′ 18″ E and they did air refueling x3 time inside Iranian airspace.
Collect photos show the destruction of Neka power plant after Iraqi air raid.
http://www.iraqiairforcememorial.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Neka.jpg

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 2,318

History proves you wrong. First lock-on on SR-71 has been achieved on 31-Jan-1986. As the Foxhound pilot claimed, he did not shoot because the Blackbird did not dare to violate Soviet air space. On 03-Jun-1986, six MiG-31s have performed a coordinated trap on an SR-71 over the Barents Sea and achieved multiple lock-ons. This interception has effectively stopped further SR-71 recon missions over the Soviet Union.

Since when were SR-71s overflying the Soviet Union?

See following from 1 hour 18.

Their peacetime mission in regards to the Soviet Union and China was periphery using slant sensors.

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB74/U2-45.pdf

Profile picture for user MSphere

Member for

11 years 10 months

Posts: 8,850

Since when were SR-71s overflying the Soviet Union?
See following from 1 hour 18.

I personally have suspected that but don't remember having that confirmed that clearly.
I wonder why so much emphasis is put on the fact that no SR-71 was ever shot down, then..

Member for

10 years 1 month

Posts: 5,904

Because it took over the job of the U2 (A12/ SR71), flew over SAM country in Vietnam (where big ECM relying assets where falling down like the mangoo's from the tree (52's)), overflew China, Mapped Korea and/or went post strike over Libya at a time when nap of the earth was seen as the panacea... and still with no losses.

But you know that..

Member for

6 years 10 months

Posts: 25

Excuse Me are you rely on Tom Cooper stories and Iranian Allegations or do you have a any proof of these myths?
I have read you first top comment on this page but i wouldn't replay because it contains a lot of inaccuracies at the same time another user did already, however i don't mean to offend your words but i know it's not your fault since such this nonsense published somewhere through books or internet. As i explain and confirmed to you Iraqi air force didn't lost more than a three MIG-25's in combat mission during Iran Iraq war none of them shot down by any Iranian aircraft all of them were lost by SAM. And there is no MIG-25 down near or around the city of Van in Turkey this is totally false allegations.

Don't worry my friend, I don't get offended easily. The whole point of these forums are exchange of information.;)
As for my sources, I do not rely on Tom Cooper as many of his claims have been disapproved by Iranian pilots including the shoot down of Four Iraqi aircraft by a single Phoenix missile nor do I rely on Iranian government websites. The information comes from a few of the retired Iranian pilots whom have just started to talk about their experience during the war. About the losses and victories, the incompetency, the regrets, the achievements and so on.
As for MiG-25s, after searching and rechecking the stories, what I wrote down was the gist of it, different than our friend's claim Tom Cooper. The F-5 pilot shooting down the MiG-25 being Javadpour was indeed one of the stories that was followed but declined by other F-5 pilots. There was no CAS mission involved in Zarenejad's story as they flew for interception of the MiG-25. As for the Van MiG-25, the deduction was that it should have been the same Iraqi MiG-25 as reported by an Arabian Newspaper, possibly sharq al-osat, that went down near Van. The other operator of MiG-25 would have been the Soviet Union at that time. As for HQ-2 in Esfahan shooting down one of the MiGs seems no disagreement!! Anyway, versions of different ways of Iraq losing 4 MiG-25s is mentioned and it seems there is agreement in the numbers!!

This myths published many times in different adventures way perhaps who published these allegations suffering of Alzheimer's because every time he publish this story he forget what he has written before!
In 2010 he allege
And as i confirmed before (Brig Gen Sadik) a fictional character does not exist in Iraqi air force at all.
Nearly four year later he back to allege:

And continued to say

Now we got two different story by the same source and different pilot names! (Zare-Nejad and Shabani) and later (Javadpour) became the hero of this kill plus the new story the MIG-25 suffered cabin pressure failure..! So is there a new story looming?

Correct, that is why one should not just rely on what others say unless the source is reliable to a point. For instance, all the information in the IRIAF is still not published officially which is why Tom Cooper claims his information is coming from the Iraqi side alone!!

I am afraid to tell you the Iranian F-14 even shot down by Su-22 however the Iraqi MIG-21s achieved four kills against the Iranian F-14's.
Early in the war 1980, two Iranian F-14s were surprised by two Iraqi Mig-21 MFs flown by Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 67 Squadron who had come up from below and behind and shot them both down using r-13m missile near Zubaydat area 100 km north east Amarah city.
Month later or so Capt Hassan Bashir MIG-21bis S/N 681 shot down another Iranian F-14 using r-13m missile.
Followed by Maj. Kamal Abdul Sattar Alborznge (the same pilot who managed to shot down the first Iranian F-5 over Baghdad in 7 of September 1980 and later become the commander of the Iraq Air Force 2003) gun Iranian F-14, the gun camera photos show Iranian F-14 hit by fire allowed the reporters to view it in that time.
Captain Nawfal Shaaban MIG-23ML shot down Iranian F-14 over the gulf North West Bandar Ganaveh using r24 missile.
Captain Mohsen Sebti MIG-23MS shot down Iranian F-14 in March 1982
Captain Khalaf Ahmed Hussein Mirage F-1 shot down Iranian F-14 over the gulf North West Khark Island
Top ace Iraqi pilot who achieved 14 kill 12 of them by his Mirage F1 S/N 4014 Capt Mokhalad Abdul Karim shot down F-14 in 1984.
And many others.

It is great to know about the above, but please let me know your source of information as well. Stating that you have already mentioned some of the facts before really doesn't make them valid. I would love to see the gun photos of the kill and it would be great if you tell me the type of aircraft that was involved in the kill as well as the approximate date.
This is what the exchange of information helps, from our friends here posting 5-6 F-14As lost to aerial combats to our other friends that concluded the air force of both Iran and Iraq had little role during the war!!
Also, you mentioned that Iran could not utilize the F-14s due to technical expertise "that Iraqi Air force losses during Iran-Iraq war in aerial combat was 37 fixed-wing aircraft, and Iran were unable to deploy and operate their AIM-54s earlier in the war due to technical expertise." during the beginning of the war, yet two kills are claimed by Iraqis early in the war.

Iranian F-4's launched their raids from Syria and they did back to land in Syria as well, they didn't destroyed any Iraqi aircraft it was confusing air raid caused some damage to one MIG-21U no more.
Again, regarding the above I personally will follow logic. Having this type of support constitutes an act of war by Syria on Iraq. Same as Iraqi fighters not taking off from the Arabian Persian Gulf countries (GCC) for operations as mentioned by some of the posts; however, having their support in terms of air space and emergency landings is believable. The other things is that if the F-4s had indeed flown from Syria, their payload would have been much heavier and no need for external fuel tanks. The result would have been more devastating than it was. And as I mentioned before, the claims by the Iranian regime regarding the damage was not in fact that many as told by the pilots.

This missions carried out by Mirage F1s 79Sq Qayyarah/Saddam Airbase AB 35° 45′ 57″ N, 43° 7′ 18″ E and they did air refueling x3 time inside Iranian airspace.
Collect photos show the destruction of Neka power plant after Iraqi air raid.
http://www.iraqiairforcememorial.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Neka.jpg


Well there is no dispute in Neka Power Plant being hit as I mentioned above but I seriously question three aerial refueling inside Iranian air space. That means total air superiority and total ground superiority over the SAMs which again our friends claim that Iran had a superb ground SAM capabilities, since most of the Iraqi fighters were lost to SAMs. So for this, Neka being bombed by MiG-25 seems more logical than the mentioned mission. I would like to know the route taken by Iraqi Mirages as well as the refueling points if you can offer please. :o
Profile picture for user MSphere

Member for

11 years 10 months

Posts: 8,850

Because it took over the job of the U2 (A12/ SR71), flew over SAM country in Vietnam (where big ECM relying assets where falling down like the mangoo's from the tree (52's)), overflew China, Mapped Korea and/or went post strike over Libya at a time when nap of the earth was seen as the panacea... and still with no losses.

But you know that..


As Mr.Graham explicitly says, SR-71s never dared to fly over mainland China.

Member for

15 years 11 months

Posts: 2,814

On 03-Jun-1986, six MiG-31s have performed a coordinated trap on an SR-71 over the Barents Sea and achieved multiple lock-ons. This interception has effectively stopped further SR-71 recon missions over the Soviet Union.

Proves nothing, just because a missile radar system gets a lock-on, doesn't mean that the missile will ever hit the target - otherwise most anti-aircraft missile systems would have achieved 100 PK rates.

On 03-Jun-1986, six MiG-31s have performed a coordinated trap on an SR-71 over the Barents Sea and achieved multiple lock-ons.

But they never attempted a shoot-down - why did they bother? Must be good for training.

This interception has effectively stopped further SR-71 recon missions over the Soviet Union.

There were never any SR-71 overflights intended anyway - banned by international treaty.

And you still have not answered the question - why the F-14 and f-4 can't shoot down a MiG-25RB - but MiG-25/31 can certainly shoot down a SR-71 flying up to Mach 1 faster than the MiG-25 recce?

Profile picture for user MSphere

Member for

11 years 10 months

Posts: 8,850

Proves nothing, just because a missile radar system gets a lock-on, doesn't mean that the missile will ever hit the target - otherwise most anti-aircraft missile systems would have achieved 100 PK rates.
I'd say that it puts a big smoking hole into your little theory about SR-71 being invulnerable to the MiG-25 and MiG-31 from Post #143.
But they never attempted a shoot-down -
Over Barents Sea = international waters
why did they bother? Must be good for training.

It sent a clear message. Deterrence is the best defense.
There were never any SR-71 overflights intended anyway - banned by international treaty.
A treaty is a nice piece of paper, sure. Having means to shoot you down is even nicer. And pretty much the best way to force you to sign any treaty, at all.
And you still have not answered the question - why the F-14 and f-4 can't shoot down a MiG-25RB -
A wrong question to ask, because everything is possible... The right question to ask would be - have the F-14s indeed shot down any MiG-25RB? A claim made by IRIAF pilot is hardly a proof..
but MiG-25/31 can certainly shoot down a SR-71 flying up to Mach 1 faster than the MiG-25 recce?

SR-71 - M3.3.. MiG-25RB - M2.8 safely, M3.2 with risk. You seem to have a thing with math.

Member for

10 years 1 month

Posts: 5,904

As Mr.Graham explicitly says, SR-71s never dared to fly over mainland China.

A12 / Nixon / SR71 ;)

You certainly don't need me to elaborate further with my poor man English.

Member for

6 years 10 months

Posts: 25


And you still have not answered the question - why the F-14 and f-4 can't shoot down a MiG-25RB - but MiG-25/31 can certainly shoot down a SR-71 flying up to Mach 1 faster than the MiG-25 recce?

Shooting down a high and fast flying fighter is not an easy task. Under non-dogfight conditions, it is very hard to shoot down a MiG-25. The ideal condition of shooting down a MiG-25 by an F-14 is a head-on (12 o'clock) interception. To achieve that, the F-14 has to be aware of its presence well in advance and if you are in ideal condition, to track, acquire and fire the Phoenix missile, you only have about 10 seconds as the combined speed of the two fighters during the Iran-Iraq war exceeded 4 Mach. While the IRIAF F-14s claim to have managed to cancel many Iraqi MiG-25 missions, ONLY ONE F-14 managed to shoot a MiG-25 using the Phoenix missile. At least one other F-14 fired a Phoenix missile towards a MiG-25 but the Iraqi MiG easily outran the incoming missile.
As for the F-4, well if we are talking about Sparrow E2 & E4 missiles, their rate of accuracy during the Vietnam war was about 13% engaging the MiG-17/19/21!!! Unless in a dog fight, the F-4 practically has no chance of shooting down the MiG-25.
Can't help you with the SR-71 Vs. Foxbat and Foxhound! :apologetic:

Member for

7 years 1 month

Posts: 19

As for the Van MiG-25, the deduction was that it should have been the same Iraqi MiG-25 as reported by an Arabian Newspaper, possibly sharq al-osat, that went down near Van. The other operator of MiG-25 would have been the Soviet Union at that time. As for HQ-2 in Esfahan shooting down one of the MiGs seems no disagreement!! Anyway, versions of different ways of Iraq losing 4 MiG-25s is mentioned and it seems there is agreement in the numbers!!

Yes confirm Iraqi air force lost a three MIG-25RB's during the war, all of the shot down by SAM, One of the flown by Capt.Thaer as i mentioned before and the other one manage to escape and he returned to Iraq before the end of the war. The story of Van does not have any basis of realty!
1.The city about 100 kilometers away from the Iranian border even if we assume that there was an error in navigation system.
2.The MIG-25RB's mostly operated from Habbaniyah/Tammuz Airbase and Abu Ubaidah or Tallil/Ali Airbase.
3.Most northern operations carried out by TU-16s or Mirage F-1s therefore i can't see any target requires RB's except reconnaissance missions and they did.
The MIG-25PDs did several interception duties in north Iran to shot down cargo airliners were carrying weapons & SCUD missile and F-4 spare parts, but all these mission was sudden and successful, based on that matter is settled no MIG-25 lost or shot down in the northern sector.


Well there is no dispute in Neka Power Plant being hit as I mentioned above but I seriously question three aerial refueling inside Iranian air space. That means total air superiority and total ground superiority over the SAMs which again our friends claim that Iran had a superb ground SAM capabilities, since most of the Iraqi fighters were lost to SAMs. So for this, Neka being bombed by MiG-25 seems more logical than the mentioned mission. I would like to know the route taken by Iraqi Mirages as well as the refueling points if you can offer please. :o

Because my English not so good and mostly use google to translate my comments therefore i always try to shorten my words, however Neka Power Plant hit twice the first one was 6 Dec 1986 and the pictures i did linked belong to it, the second one was more destruction in 29 Sept 1987. and as i explained to you this mission carried out by Mirage F-1EQ5s one of these Mirage F-1 was carry this serial number 4575 flown by No2 in formation and all the three pilot still alive and live out of Iraq and remember each minute of that duty..
You did ask me about the route used in this mission, i believe the time is not good right now because we don't know what the future holds, but i can tell you the first refueling was over Zarivar Lake west Marivan city and the second one was north east Iranian air base where the Iraqi Mirages were fly low then 40m and then headed toward to fly between mountains and valley formations till their wings was about 10 to 15 meters from the edge of the mountains, after that Caspian Sea appeared in his wonderful dark blue and they continued to flight distance about 250Km with extremely low altitude 20m over the sea (the Iraqi pilots did heard some military Soviet/Russian air traffic communications) but wasn't nothing to worry about later the formation turned around 150 degree and headed toward to attack the target, total time took 2:25 minutes, TOT i will post it in my next comment.
but please let me know your source of information as well. Stating that you have already mentioned some of the facts before really doesn't make them valid. I would love to see the gun photos of the kill and it would be great if you tell me the type of aircraft that was involved in the kill as well as the approximate date.

Ex-commander of the Iraqi air force during the nineties Lt. Gen Khaldun Baker.
Ex-Major General Alwan al-Abousi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_General_Alwan_Hassoun_Alwan_al-Abousi
Aan the involved pilots themselves.
These pictures and videos were available before when Iraq was state, now after 22 years of chaos and destruction how can i offer them! but still there is a chance through ex-Iraq AF members round the world perhaps in one day they will upload or post videos or photos somewhere on internet "don't give up there's some people still kept". the exact number of Iranian F-14's losses in aerial combat was 16 aircraft this figure was listed in Iraqi AF movements/duties files and reference to honor the pilots in brave medals and awards such as Mercedes cars therefore the matter is not only claims.
yet two kills are claimed by Iraqis early in the war.

Can you explain more about this part i didn't get the point.
Will continue later

Member for

6 years 10 months

Posts: 25

Can you explain more about this part i didn't get the point.
Will continue later [/QUOTE]
You mentioned previously that the IRIAF could not utilize the F-14 at the beginning of war due to lack of expertise, while there are at least two claims of F-14 kills early in the war. So questions are:
1) If IRIAF could not use the F-14s because of lack expertise, then how did Iraq shoot down two F-14s early in the war.
2) If IRIAF lacked the expertise, then how could they utilize the F-14s at all since there were no support from the United States.

Member for

6 years 10 months

Posts: 25

. . . the pilots in brave medals and awards such as Mercedes cars therefore the matter is not only claims.
Will continue later

The story about Mercedes Benz I have also heard. Here is the Iranian F-14 story from Defence.pk: http://defence.pk/threads/iriaf-war-stories.324164/

PILOT MEMOIRS: SAMAD EBRAHIMI & WSO ALIREZA JARRAH

F-14 vs. Mercedes

It was about 5 years into the war and the tanker war had just started sporadically. Saddam Hossein had placed a bounty on the F-14s; the reward a brand new Mercedes Benz for any pilot that shoots down an F-14. The statement which was televised by Iraqi T.V. came as a welcome to the F-14 pilots, the reason being that they would be the target instead of the oil tanker ships they were protecting, making their job easier.

Ebrahimi, who had been transferred from the F-5 to the F-14 during the war, was a competent and smart pilot. Lt. Jarrah, a young and newly assigned Weapon’s System Officer to the F-14, was well trained but with little experience as a rear cabin operator. During the later years of the Iran-Iraq war, the F-14 aerial engagements had lessened due to the shortage of Phoenix missiles and the interceptor acted as a deterrent to enemy fighters.

The following day after Saddam Hossein’s reward announcement, Ebrahimi and Jarrah were assigned to scramble duty. The scramble alarm goes off and the crew rush towards their interceptor, but the threat was not yet imminent. As threat procedure required, they sat in their seats with systems and engines switched off. Some forty minutes had passed when Lt. Jarrah becomes uncomfortable and unfastens his harness, stretching himself. The situation is still on alert which meant enemy fighters were in the vicinity but didn’t pose an imminent threat. Ebrahimi was reading The Qoran and some 15 minutes later, the scramble alarm goes off. The ground crew gathers around the fighter, the F-14 jets are fired up and systems are online. All final checks are a go and The Tomcat leaves the shelter for the runway. Minutes later they are climbing fast and are guided by radar towards the threat.

Five or six F-1 Mirages are viewed by radar which some acted as refueling tankers for the rest. The IrAF had been using this tactic, refueling Mirage with a Mirage close to Kuwait’s Boubian Island, for attacks on oil tankers that had left Khark Island and were heading towards the Sea of Oman. Three of the Mirages break away from the group; one was equipped with the Exocest anti-ship missile while the other two provided top cover, escorting the strike Mirage. The F-14 tracked them on radar at 80 miles away and the crew was pretty sure that the Mirages were advised by the U.S. Navy of their presence. During the Iran-Iraq war, the U.S. Navy would assist the Iraqi fighters by providing information about the IRIAF activities as well as offering a barrier by positioning their ships between the two approaching air forces, threatening the Iranian fighters that they were approaching U.S. Navy warships.

As the F-14 hoped the three Mirages turn towards them instead of heading for the oil tankers after they had refueled. This made their job easier. Ebrahimi realizes they are close to the Strait of Homuz and immediately decides to take advantage of the distance the enemy fighters had from their home base, Al Naseriyeh, some 800 miles away. He advises Lt. Jarrah of his decision to engage the enemy in a dogfight, forcing them to burn more fuel and face shortage on their return trip. They take the Phoenix missiles offline and prepare for a dogfight. That day besides being equipped with the long range Phoenix missile, they had the medium range Sparrow & short range heat seeking Sidewinder missiles onboard as well; however, the last two had a degraded performance on the F-14s as they were the models used by the F-4 Phantoms.

The distance between the Iraqi fighters and the F-14 was quickly reducing as they flew towards each other. Glad that the Mirages were planning to target the F-14 instead of the oil tankers, Ebrahimi continued heading towards the enemy fighters. At around 15 miles the Mirages fire their Super Matra radar guided missile at the Tomcat and Ebrahimi immediately breaks away, defeating the incoming missiles. He then puts his plan into motion, and engages the three Mirages. He advised Lt. Jarrah to check their six at all times and began maneuvering and banking moderately, avoid ending up at the Mirages’ six and scaring them away. As the dogfights require having the jet engines running in at least military power and at times afterburner mode, the goal was to have the enemy fighters burn as much fuel as possible. Soon, one Mirage ends up in their six as Lt. Jarrah warns Ebrahimi and the Iraqi pilot fires a missile, the F-14 breaks away hard defeating the missile. The Iraqi fighters believing that they are faced with a novice pilot are lured into the Tomcat’s trap. The F-14 repeats this pattern twice more, each time defeating the fired missile. Lt. Jarrah believes that besides the F-14’s superior maneuverability, due to the Iraqi pilots’ haste, possibly anxious about engaging the F-14 in enemy territory and quite far from their home base, they were unsuccessful in shooting them. As the reverse cat and mouse game continues, all of a sudden Ebrahimi sees that the Mirages have disengaged abruptly, returning back, realizing that they have noticed being low on fuel. He quickly positioned himself behind them and locks on to the lead Mirage as the Iraqi pilots go into full afterburner in fear of getting shot. The F-14 continues the lock for a while allowing the Mirages to burn more fuel in afterburner mode and then heads back to base. About five minutes later the radar advises the F-14 that one of the Mirages has gone off scope, an indication that the pilot had ditched in the Persian Gulf.

According to Ebrahimi, 8 or 9 minutes later a second Mirage runs out of fuel, while the third one manages to get over land but there is no confirmation whether it landed safely or the pilot had to eject. Lt. Jarrah speaks of one Mirage pilot declaring an emergency, coding the “out of fuel” transmission.

The F-14 lands at Bushehr Air Base and parks in the shelter. Lt. Jarrah says: -“As we parked in the shelter, I secured my seat (ejection safe) and wanted to unfasten my harness when I realized that I was already unstrapped. I felt my body heat up and began sweating, recollecting the three instances when the missiles were fired at us, if we had to eject, I would be thrown out of the plane, thinking that I was safe but ending up in a free fall, without a parachute, plummeting into the sea. Pilots require ground crew assistance to strap into the seats, hooking them to the parachute, survival kit, etc. I also realized how freely I could turn and check our six during the dogfight, as when the pilot is strapped in, the body movement becomes limited. I was young with little experience and fortunately this danger passed away, thank God.”

It is said that the day after this incident, the brand new Mercedes were removed from the Iraqi air bases and the costly reward, withdrawn.

Source: Tomcat Fights; Persian Gulf Engagements Part 2

Member for

8 years 10 months

Posts: 783

this is not true.

hundreds of mercedes cars were given to air force pilots including loads of SU22 and SU25 pilots. the reward was in no way linked to shooting down F14s.

Member for

6 years 10 months

Posts: 25

this is not true.

hundreds of mercedes cars were given to air force pilots including loads of SU22 and SU25 pilots. the reward was in no way linked to shooting down F14s.

Well first time I heard was in the above story and second time from F-1XFP. Perhaps the Mercedes were offered on several occasions and not necessarily ONLY for the F-14 alone?:confused:

Member for

8 years 10 months

Posts: 783

Well first time I heard was in the above story and second time from F-1XFP. Perhaps the Mercedes were offered on several occasions and not necessarily ONLY for the F-14 alone?:confused:

unlike iranians and Tom Cooper, Iraqis weren't particularly obsessed by F14s. in fact from the iraqi perspective the main things they speak mostly of are:

F4 phantoms
baseej
Hawk missiles

iranian tanks, F14s etc... never made a "positive" impression on Iraqis.

in fact those old Mercedes (180 I think) are even called "pilots edition" in Iraq. They were indeed very numerous, and completely disconnected from any overt association in particular with F14s... with which there were very few incidents anyway, considering the war lasted for 8 years.

with regards to air supremacy, neither side had air supremacy nor made particularly effective use of airpower. In theory Iraq could have used Iran's weakness to make strategic assaults to weaken Iran's infrastructure by the mid to late 80s... but they never did. a few attacks here and there in a piecemeal fashion. Iran rarely penetrated Iraqi air space and had little effect on the ground war on the front.

for both countries, helicopters played the most useful role in the war in supporting their respective ground forces. and from the Iraqi side, the MiG21, SU-25 and PC7s.

the more "strategic" assets of both sides were a bit of a side-show really, including the iraqi mirages, mig25s etc...

Iran's air defences were so weak that by Spring 1988 Iraq was using Il-76 freighters to bomb inside Iran with pallet bombs. that would have been easy meat if Iraqis had "feared" the F14 surely... but then again, the Iraqis never had the courage to go "deeper" and more intensive in their assaults in the fear of racking up losses. it was very much a war where each side calculated to minimise asset losses, and thus aircraft played a secondary role for both sides.

Profile picture for user Tango III

Member for

15 years 4 months

Posts: 25,376

For correction, they were Mercedes 190!

http://images.caradisiac.com/logos-ref/modele/modele--mercedes-190/S7-modele--mercedes-190.jpg