The F-CK-1 IDF

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Profile picture for user Erkokite

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11 years 10 months

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It's a beautiful light fighter aircraft that seems woefully undermentioned. Discuss.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/IDF_F-CK-1_Display_in_ROCAF_Songshan_Air_Force_Base_20110813a.jpg

Original post

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13 years 5 months

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Also the successor could be interesting...

"Given the reluctance to deliver advanced fighter aircraft as expressed by Taiwan’s main ally – the US – Taipei is determined to develop its own advanced air power, based on new generation, stealth-capable fighters capable to meet the modern Chinese fighter planes in battle. Other capabilities recommended for such fighters include long-range flight and aerial refueling abilities, as well as the capability to launch ground and anti-ship weapons."

http://defense-update.com/20130314_taiwan-to-seek-development-of-an-indigenous-stealth-fighter.html

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20 years 10 months

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Would be interesting to see a "super" version of this ala the Super Hornet. Same type of rectangular intakes for example, with a centerline stealth weapons pod. Should be very doable in a reasonable time frame. Dunno about engine options though.

Profile picture for user MadRat

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14 years 3 months

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Since India funded a more advanced F125 they should look into that option again. SLEP the F-CK-1 and boost its performance. I always liked the idea of Sky Sword II being AMRAAM-like guidance using Sparrow bodies and warheads. Rectangular intakes, a spline and beefed up tail (F-16 vertical stab), IRST on the centerline fuel tank, and wingtip MICA IR would be a serious upgrade.

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In many ways Sky Sword II is an AMRAAM! It uses a seeker derived from the Motorola-Raytheon design for the AIM-120 proposal that lost to Hughes. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Sky Sword II is closer to the Motorola-Raytheon missile then we realise. Remember the radar in the F-CK-1 is derived from the set developed for the F-20.

The way forward I think for US/Taiwan defence relations is further transfer of technology to allow local industry to build what they need for defence. For example the new Diesel submarines desperately needed could be built in Taiwan with US assistance.

Profile picture for user MadRat

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I never cared much for this layout:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kR-DJUDRWqU/SzY3ECWlGYI/AAAAAAAABeY/mz4MCtGrPO4/s640/5555.jpg

I liked how the original Hornet carried the Sparrows on the hips.

http://www.voodoo.cz/hornet/b/f18165.jpg

Profile picture for user F-18Growler

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7 years 7 months

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I like the front view of the F-CK-1A. :D It is the primary Air Superiority fighter with Multi-Role added capability for the Republic Of China Taiwan Airforce.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/IDF_F-CK-1A_Single_Front_View.jpg

Steven

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ROC really blew it with a promising domestic aircraft industry. Some of their people behind the F-CK-1 went to work on the South Korean T-50 program. A project that could very well have been done in Taiwan.

As far as their submarine program goes, it's lack of one gives an indication of how poorly run their domestic industry has been as a whole. For an economy of their size and sophistication their defense industry has been a disaster. Just look how much further the Swedes and Israelis have come with a smaller population and GDP. There's no getting around the fact that they just don't take it that seriously.

Profile picture for user Fedaykin

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Well I don't think the ROC were not expecting the PRC to put so much pressure on other countries to stop selling defence articles to them. Even the US is highly reluctant now to sell to Taiwan because of Chinese pressure. Countries that were happy to sell Taiwan equipment wouldn't even dare now!

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The way forward I think for US/Taiwan defence relations is further transfer of technology to allow local industry to build what they need for defence. For example the new Diesel submarines desperately needed could be built in Taiwan with US assistance.

The last US built diesel sub design was laid down almost 60 years ago, in the same decade as the Korean War.

Taiwan would be far better served outsourcing the design to German, Dutch, or other countries companies, for local construction.

Not even Israel went to the US for diesel subs.

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15 years 11 months

Posts: 1,620

Would be interesting to see a "super" version of this ala the Super Hornet. Same type of rectangular intakes for example, with a centerline stealth weapons pod. Should be very doable in a reasonable time frame. Dunno about engine options though.

The original plan was for a developed F-CK-1 to follow on from the initial production batch, as far as I remember.

There was a more powerful engine developed for it, but with the advent of F-16's finally allowed for sale to Taiwan, this engine option was cancelled.
The engine was to produce 12 000lbs (53kN).
The F-16 purchase also slashed the Ching Kuo programme from the original 256 ordered, down to the 130 actually produced.

There has been previous work on developed Ching Kuo designs, stretching all the way into studies for a completely new design.

IMHO, Taiwan needs to understand that it should develop it's own fighter, and be wary of "last minute" offers that scupper economies of scale production and development runs of such a fighter.

The main problem is that Taiwan doesn't spend particularly much on defence, as a measure of dollar per capita.
It's half of that of Sweden who produce their own fighter, as a per capita measure, though in outright total it's twice the amount. ($10 billion, off the top of my head)
So, plenty of scope to do it.
Taiwan has stated recently that it will not seek to match the mainland in quantity, but go for a much sleeker, high quality defence establishment.
It is all dependent on the political will though, not words.

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F-CK-1 is a cute little jet.

Well I don't think the ROC were not expecting the PRC to put so much pressure on other countries to stop selling defence articles to them. Even the US is highly reluctant now to sell to Taiwan because of Chinese pressure. Countries that were happy to sell Taiwan equipment wouldn't even dare now!

China was nowhere near as powerful in the 1990s as it is now. Economics rule the roost.

But then the US stopped selling advanced equipment to ROCAF from 1970s when China started opening up as USA viewed CHina as a counter to USSR.

If PRC hadn't opened up in 1970s I expect F-4s, F-15s and F-16s or F-20s would've made it to the Taiwanese inventory in the 1970s and 1980s.

Afte all USAF supplied advanced Century series supersonic jets and even U-2s to Taiwan in 1950s and 1960s (look up Black Cat squadron for those interested).

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Thanks thobbes, nice links.

Just illustrates that Taiwan had a bright period in the 80's and 90's, but haven't really kicked on from there.

I know it's expensive developing indiginious projects, but the stop/start/stop drip feed of weapons supply, or total refusal in many cases from traditional western suppliers should really have sunk in, one would have thought.

Wasn't the aircraft scheduled for an engine upgrade?

Profile picture for user PhantomII

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I like the front view of the F-CK-1A. It is the primary Air Superiority fighter with Multi-Role added capability for the Republic Of China Taiwan Airforce.

No it isn't. The Mirage 2000-5 is the primary air superiority jet for the ROCAF. All the other types (F-16, IDF, F-5) also act in the air defense role, but the Mirage 2000 is Taiwan's premier air-to-air type.

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The last US built diesel sub design was laid down almost 60 years ago, in the same decade as the Korean War.

Taiwan would be far better served outsourcing the design to German, Dutch, or other countries companies, for local construction.

Not even Israel went to the US for diesel subs.

You did read my above post?

The Germans and Dutch won't even sell designs to Taiwan now.

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15 years 11 months

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You did read my above post?

The Germans and Dutch won't even sell designs to Taiwan now.

This quote?

Well I don't think the ROC were not expecting the PRC to put so much pressure on other countries to stop selling defence articles to them. Even the US is highly reluctant now to sell to Taiwan because of Chinese pressure. Countries that were happy to sell Taiwan equipment wouldn't even dare now!

They may not sell them the complete article, but there is absolutely no way on this earth you could prevent the free movement of technical knowledge or the free movement of labour. A brief perusal of the global defence industry illustrates this multiple times.

For example, at the height of global sanctions against South Africa, they were still able to purchase the complete engineering blueprints for the Type 209 submarine and the HDW FS1500 frigate, and Mirage 2000 designer David Fabish was freely able to choose a job in a country to his liking and be the chief designer of the Carver Project fighter jet in South Africa .

Complete weapons may be a no-no, but the movement of technical designs, or solutions, and human beings are another matter completely.

Again, Taiwan is perfectly able to purchase designs or technical solutions, never mind the hiring of human capital.

You cannot dictate where people choose to work.

Expensive, yes, but some brief thought on the matter, and a myriad of examples illustrates that no nation on earth could prevent this.

Profile picture for user Fedaykin

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No Wilhelm complete designs and the ToT to actually build them! This has been in the public sphere for years! Nobody is prepared to sell even the designs for a Diesel sub, it is the main reason why America has not been able to service the request for new Diesel subs.

Difference between South Africa and Taiwan is China! Several countries were indeed prepared to bend the spirit of sanctions against South Africa as there wasn't really any significant penalties involved. Taiwan is different, China can cause serious financial pain for companies and governments that sell high end weapons technology to Taiwan or the US if it is for on-sale to Taiwan, even if it is knowledge rather then hardware. France won't even help overhaul the M2000 that they sold to Taiwan in the 90's for fear of offending China!

Frankly I don't think you know about what you are talking about Wilhelm. It is well known that the global defence market is pretty much slammed shut to Taiwan due to Chinese pressure. You talk about Human Capital getting around these issues for projects like the Carver but we have found in more recent years that there was far more secret help from companies and foreign governments for South Africa then was revealed at the time. China has massive financial clout through the size of its market and the credit it has given to other countries. A diesel Submarine requires a significant amount of direct input from other companies with experience of their design and construction, a rogue designer with a set of blueprints isn't good enough! Just the knowledge around what steels to use and how to weld them is a closely guarded skill that requires significant direct input from any advising company or country.

http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/taiwan-submarine-import-and-export-behavior/

Profile picture for user swerve

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Thanks thobbes, nice links.

Just illustrates that Taiwan had a bright period in the 80's and 90's, but haven't really kicked on from there.

I know it's expensive developing indiginious projects, but the stop/start/stop drip feed of weapons supply, or total refusal in many cases from traditional western suppliers should really have sunk in, one would have thought.


Internal politics. One of the two main Taiwanese political parties now sees the future as with China, & is angling for a favourable settlement. Not annoying China too much by arming heavily is seen as politically wise. I think it now sees the armed forces as an aid to bargaining. The other main party is more independence-minded.

Taiwan might be able to get US help with building submarine hulls & combat systems, but propulsion would be a nightmare. At least they have their 1980s-built Dutch subs, from which they can learn something, albeit not exactly the latest technology - but you can't learn how to make the right steels, or weld them, from a built hull. Hence the need for US help.

PS. Taiwan's nominal GDP per capita is about 40% that of Sweden, so it'd have to spend 2.5 times the share of GDP to have the same dollar spending per head. The difference at purchasing power parity is much less, but dollar military spending is at prevailing exchange rates, so the nominal figure is the right one to use. Taiwan spends a bigger proportion of national income on its armed forces than Sweden does.

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Frankly I don't think you know about what you are talking about Wilhelm.

:rolleyes:

What a strange debating tactic, when you completely ignore the point made that you simply cannot legislate where individuals choose to work.

CM-32 was designed by Timoney Ireland, production started in 2007, ongoing.
Thunderbolt-2000 MRL based on the German MAN HX-81 8x8 military truck, production ongoing at present time.
AT-4, Swedish, built in the US for Taiwan.
APILAS, French, still bought recently.
35mm AA, Switzerland, upgraded 2009 to GDF-006 with AHEAD, 2009.
Patriot SAM deliveries/upgrades, US, underway.
P3C Orion, US, orderd 2009, deliveries 2013.
Eurocopter Super Puma, 3 delivered in 2010, with 17 more on option.
AIM120 AMRAAM, US, within the last 6 years.
F-16 upgrade, US, contract signed Sept 2012.
Stinger SAM, US, orders underway.
E-2 AWACS, US, last upgrade delivered March 2013.
Harpoon ASM, submarine launched and air launched versions, ordered 2008.
Osprey Class minehunter, US, delivered 2012.
Cheng Kung Class destroyer, US design, licence produced.
Javelin Missile, US, 2002 and 2010.
AH-64 Apache, US, 2010.
UH-60 Blackhawk, US, 2011.

Taiwan has stated 3 weeks ago that it is conducting a feasibility study into local sub construction.
Whilst mainland Chinese interference may hinder this, it will not prevent it if given the go-ahead.

These above examples are recent public domain examples, after a brief check, and do not reflect everything, particularly regarding electronics and subsidiary systems and various technical assistance. Being the obvious and the salient, it in no way reflect what goes on behind the scenes.

The main problem is Taiwanese political in-fighting, and budget allocation.

So, I will reiterate:

Taiwan can source technical know how and designs.
It can make use of the free movement of individual labour with regard to technical expertise and design.

To paraphrase your good self:

"Frankly I don't think you know about what you are talking about Fedaykin".

Unless you are willing to attempt to fly in the face of good reason and illustrate how you prevent the purchasing of technical knowledge and proven over and over again point of individuals excercising the right to move and work where they want to.

Just because the example I gave in the earlier post wrt the sale of technical designs and movement of labour in a previous post does not fit your opinion, does not make this invalid. In fact, it gives the perfect illustration that if Taiwan showeed the political will and budget allocation, these things are pefectly feasible, as they always have been and still are.

IMHO, of course.