The F-CK-1 IDF

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Whilst there's spares available, the F-CK-1/ F-16 and Mirage 2000 would all be useful to replace J-7 and J-8s as well as Aggressor Squadrons.

Can one imagine an F-16 or M2000 in PLAAF/PLAN colours (though didn't the Chinese show interest in 200+ Mirage 2000s in the past?).

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Whilst there's spares available, the F-CK-1/ F-16 and Mirage 2000 would all be useful to replace J-7 and J-8s as well as Aggressor Squadrons.

Can one imagine an F-16 or M2000 in PLAAF/PLAN colours (though didn't the Chinese show interest in 200+ Mirage 2000s in the past?).

Why would PLAAF keep F-16A and Mirage 2000-5 when their J-10B are at least half a generation more advanced? Chinese military doesn't have a habit of using Western equipment. For instance, Norinco manufactures M-16 / M-4 clone known as CQ which is only for export and not used by PLA.

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Firslty Taiwanese F-16A/Bs are closer to a Block 50 (hence unique Block 20 designation). They were called F-16A/B because USA did not want to be seen to be selling a more advanced F-16C/D to ROC.

Secondly, all these Taiwanese aircraft are far more advanced than the J-7 and J-8 which still serve in many PLAAF/PLAN regiments and will probably continue to do so in the considerable future.

Thirdly, what proof is there that a J-10B is better than an F-16 or M2000-5?

Fourthly, PLAAF/PLAN has never operated Western because the West was never willing to provide them. Over the years, I've read of PLAAF/PLAN being interested in Mirage 2000 and from memoryAV-8.

If Taiwan is integrated into PRC, then PRC automatically is gifted several hundred modern aircraft.

Firslty Taiwanese F-16A/Bs are closer to a Block 50 (hence unique Block 20 designation). They were called F-16A/B because USA did not want to be seen to be selling a more advanced F-16C/D to ROC.

ROC F-16's are referred to as "A" Models but are in fact really Block 30 "C" Models. Nonetheless, they are to be upgraded shortly to bring them to ~ Blk 50 Standards.

Secondly, all these Taiwanese aircraft are far more advanced than the J-7 and J-8 which still serve in many PLAAF/PLAN regiments and will probably continue to do so in the considerable future.

No, such older types are being phased out quickly by Su-27's, J-11's, and J-10's. Then in another 10 tens maybe J-20's and/or J-31's!

Thirdly, what proof is there that a J-10B is better than an F-16 or M2000-5?

As a platform the J-10B is clearly the equal of the F-16 or M2000. You could argue Avionics and Weapons. Yet, most agree that China is closing the gap fast! Plus, the PLAAF and PLAN will have the aforementioned in "vast numbers"!

Fourthly, PLAAF/PLAN has never operated Western because the West was never willing to provide them. Over the years, I've read of PLAAF/PLAN being interested in Mirage 2000 and from memory AV-8.

China would never have access to either the Mirage 2000 or Harrier. So, such a point is moot..........

If Taiwan is integrated into PRC, then PRC automatically is gifted several hundred modern aircraft.

Not likely in the short-term if ever...........

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J-7s and J-8s as well as Q-5 aren't being replaced that quickly.

PLAAF - current regiments estimate:

J-7 -25 + regiments (plus training/OCU/test)
J-8 - 9 regiments (plus training/OCU/test)
J-10 - 8 regiments (plus training/OCU/test)
J-11-/SU-27 - 10 regiments
Q-5 - 7 regiments
Su-30 - 4 regiments
JH-7 - 5 regiments

So out of 70 odd regiments, about 60% are still equipped with older J-7, J-8 and Q-7 aircraft. More horrifically, 35% of all Chinese regiments are still equipped with J-7 variants (basically equivalent to modernised MiG-21MF or at worst a modernised MiG-21F-13)

Also bear in mind whilst an average J-10 regiment is about 28 a/c, a Su-30MK regiment is less than 20 a/c whilst a J-7 reigment is anywhere up to 40 a/c.

PLAN is a real mixed bag of types:

1 regiment J-7E
2 regiments J-8 - 1 converting to J-11
1 regiment J-10
1 regiment J-11 - 1 more converting
1 regiment J-15 (forming)
1 regiment Su-30MK2
4 regiments JH-7 (Flying Leopard)

So if ROC did get incorporated into the PRC, their aircraft would be a good contribution to retiring completely obsolete aircraft that given current rate of replacement will still be flying in the 2020-25 period.

Though I doubt ROC will become part of China in the next 30-40 years.

As a platform the J-10B is clearly the equal of the F-16 or M2000. You could argue Avionics and Weapons. Yet, most agree that China is closing the gap fast!

In modern warfare it's the weapons and avionics that matter.

Also if that Anatolian Eagle exercise is anything to go by, PLAAF/PLAN pilots have a long way to go to being even close to a "Western" trained aviator.

China would never have access to either the Mirage 2000 or Harrier. So, such a point is moot..........

My point was China didn't operate Western aircraft because it didn't want to. In fact if such aircraft were available it probably would've purchased them, just like it did French helicopters and Russian equipment.

J-7s and J-8s as well as Q-5 aren't being replaced that quickly.

PLAAF - current regiments estimate:

J-7 -25 + regiments (plus training/OCU/test)
J-8 - 9 regiments (plus training/OCU/test)
J-10 - 8 regiments (plus training/OCU/test)
J-11-/SU-27 - 10 regiments
Q-5 - 7 regiments
Su-30 - 4 regiments
JH-7 - 5 regiments

So out of 70 odd regiments, about 60% are still equipped with older J-7, J-8 and Q-7 aircraft. More horrifically, 35% of all Chinese regiments are still equipped with J-7 variants (basically equivalent to modernised MiG-21MF or at worst a modernised MiG-21F-13)

Also bear in mind whilst an average J-10 regiment is about 28 a/c, a Su-30MK regiment is less than 20 a/c whilst a J-7 reigment is anywhere up to 40 a/c.

PLAN is a real mixed bag of types:

1 regiment J-7E
2 regiments J-8 - 1 converting to J-11
1 regiment J-10
1 regiment J-11 - 1 more converting
1 regiment J-15 (forming)
1 regiment Su-30MK2
4 regiments JH-7 (Flying Leopard)

The US has vast fleets of A-10's, AV-8B's, F-15's, F-16's, and F/A-18's. Which, the majority will be replaced in the next 10-20 years. China has an even more aggressive plan and more resources available to replace its fleet. Sorry, your logic is not holding up.........

Though I doubt ROC will become part of China in the next 30-40 years.

I agree....

In modern warfare it's the weapons and avionics that matter.[/QUOTE]

True, yet much of India Defense Force is based on Russian Equipment and China also access too! Plus, China has not problem stealing what it wants. Something India is not likely to do! Sadly advantage "CHINA".


Also if that Anatolian Eagle exercise is anything to go by, PLAAF/PLAN pilots have a long way to go to being even close to a "Western" trained aviator.

Do you have a source???


My point was China didn't operate Western aircraft because it didn't want to. In fact if such aircraft were available it probably would've purchased them, just like it did French helicopters and Russian equipment.

China like India is gaining more access to Western Equipment by the day.

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The US has vast fleets of A-10's, AV-8B's, F-15's, F-16's, and F/A-18's. Which, the majority will be replaced in the next 10-20 years. China has an even more aggressive plan and more resources available to replace its fleet. Sorry, your logic is not holding up.........

It's not my logic. The proof is in the fact that 60% of PLAAF's regiments are equipped with obsolete J-7/J-8/Q-5.

As for aggressiveness of procurement, China has taken delivery of about 750 modern aircraft since 1991 (250 J-10, 240 Su-27/J-11, <150 JH-7, 100 SU-30) as well as ongoing deliveries of obsolete J-7/J-8 and Q-5.

Since 1991, USAF replaced A-7, F-4G, F-111 F-16A/B, F-14, A-6 and large chunks of F/A-18A/B and F-15C/D fleets with 187 F-22, 500+ E/F/A-18E/F/G , several hundred F/A-18C/D and several hundred F-16C/D-40/50 and additional F-15Es (total of 230 aircraft up to 2001).

So USAF recapitalised majority of it's entire fleet in period 1990-2000 and USN is recapitalising now again.

China has been unable to recapitalise even 50% of its fighter fleet with modern 4th generation aircraft in 23 years! In fact it's mainstay is still a MiG-21 derivative.

And everything in the current US fleet is overkill on an J-7/J-8/Q-5 and is a match for J-10 and most likely earlier model Flankers.


True, yet much of India Defense Force is based on Russian Equipment and China also access too! Plus, China has not problem stealing what it wants. Something India is not likely to do! Sadly advantage "CHINA".

Advantage USA and allies.


Do you have a source???

Look up Anatolian Eagle 2010. Turkish F-4E dominated PLAAF Su-27s, though there was a lot of excuses made by China apologists - pilots were PLAN, pilots were from second rate regiments, exercise never happened etc.

Here's an article on the Exercise

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=37369

http://www.aviationweek.com/blogs.aspx?plckblogid=blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckpostid=blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7post:0e6adb06-e48a-408b-bc4e-1262eeee7fdc

China like India is gaining more access to Western Equipment by the day.

Selling Boeings and Eurocopters is not selling them F-22s or your beloved F-35 now is it?

It's not my logic. The proof is in the fact that 60% of PLAAF's regiments are equipped with obsolete J-7/J-8/Q-5.

As for aggressiveness of procurement, China has taken delivery of about 750 modern aircraft since 1991 (250 J-10, 240 Su-27/J-11, <150 JH-7, 100 SU-30) as well as ongoing deliveries of obsolete J-7/J-8 and Q-5.

Since 1991, USAF replaced A-7, F-4G, F-111 F-16A/B, F-14, A-6 and large chunks of F/A-18A/B and F-15C/D fleets with 187 F-22, 500+ E/F/A-18E/F/G , several hundred F/A-18C/D and several hundred F-16C/D-40/50 and additional F-15Es (total of 230 aircraft up to 2001).

Thanks, I'll check it out but personally I don't hold a lot of weight with exercises as much depends on the ROE.

So USAF recapitalised majority of it's entire fleet in period 1990-2000 and USN is recapitalising now again.

China has been unable to recapitalise even 50% of its fighter fleet with modern 4th generation aircraft in 23 years! In fact it's mainstay is still a MiG-21 derivative.

And everything in the current US fleet is overkill on an J-7/J-8/Q-5 and is a match for J-10 and most likely earlier model Flankers.

Advantage USA and allies.

Look up Anatolian Eagle 2010. Turkish F-4E dominated PLAAF Su-27s, though there was a lot of excuses made by China apologists - pilots were PLAN, pilots were from second rate regiments, exercise never happened etc.

Here's an article on the Exercise

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=37369

http://www.aviationweek.com/blogs.aspx?plckblogid=blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckpostid=blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7post:0e6adb06-e48a-408b-bc4e-1262eeee7fdc

Thanks, I'll check it out but I don't have much faith in such exercises as they depend very much on the ROE.

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I'm much the same when it comes to exercises.

I doubt the Chinese would risk a slapping around though - too much bad PR.

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16 years 1 month

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Does anyone know what the work done to the TFE1088-12 or TFE1042-70A was to increase its thrust?
Was it a physically bigger engine, or just tweaked/reworked?
From the description below, it sounds like a more-or-less straight replacement for the vanilla TFE1042.

Then, one wonders if a single bigger engine might not be the way forward for a developed Ching Kuo?
I guess the original developed TFE1042-70 with the greater thrust would make less waves, economically and politically.

Back to the Ching Kuo.

I've quoted my post above in the hope somebody has some information on the developed TFE1042 variant.

Additionally, does anyone know whether the Ching Kuo engines were imported wholly, or were assembled in Taiwan?

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16 years 1 month

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An interesting news report from last month.

No idea how much of it is accurate.

Citing a newly released quadrennial defense review, the reports said the Air Force will develop a new generation of warplanes with advanced features such as stealth, long-range flight and aerial refueling abilities, and the capability of launching missiles against land targets or ships...

Meanwhile, military sources said that indigenous submarine and warplane development projects will cost an estimated NT$500 billion.

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/aipl/201303130039.aspx

If true, this directly mirrors South Africas position, in that the two big ticket items that were hard to source and that truly required proper sustained funding and development were a fighter jet and submarine.

Taiwan has advantages in that although pressure is applied by China, there isn't actually blanket global sanctions on them that would lead to massive fines and jail time for sanctions busters as was actually the case with South Africa, which faced far greater hurdles and still managed to put a sub and fighter programme in place.

The main problem is funding obviously, as indigineous developments without the ability to export are going to be expensive.

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15 years 7 months

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Why would PLAAF keep F-16A and Mirage 2000-5 when their J-10B are at least half a generation more advanced? Chinese military doesn't have a habit of using Western equipment. For instance, Norinco manufactures M-16 / M-4 clone known as CQ which is only for export and not used by PLA.

Chinese military has used Western equipment whenever it's been allowed (by the vendors) to import it, e.g. Super Frelon helicopters, Harpy drones, Aspide missile. The Super Frelon & Aspide were built under licence, & derivatives produced.

China also tried to buy Harrier, the Marconi Argus 2000 & Phalcon AEW radars, & many other Western systems. In each case, the deal fell through because the sale was blocked at the Western end.

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Ching Kuo with two conformal tanks.

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/idfconformal.jpg

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/idfconformal2.jpg

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Thirdly, what proof is there that a J-10B is better than an F-16 or M2000-5?

J-10B has bump intake, phased array radar, big holographic HUD, none of which F-16 or Mirage 2000-5 have. In terms of avionics and design, F-16 and Mirage 2000-5 are nowhere close to J-10B.

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Not likely in the short-term if ever...........

But only a matter of time. China is over 268 times the size of Taiwan. The ChiCom party cannot lose power in China, and it's only a matter of time until elections break down in Taiwan.

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You know Goldust you are almost as funny as JSR when it comes to nationalist, chest thumping ours it better then everybody else posts. Lets see....

DSI inlet:
http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2010_f16_dsi_02_1267828237_7281.jpg
A DSI inlet is hardly a new development and purely an aerodynamic solution. It has been tested on the F-16 as shown above but nobody has seen the need to push it. As for the Mirage 2000, a DSI inlet would not be of use over its variable shock cone for its project operational profile.

Big Holographic HUD:
Mirage 2000-5
http://www.aviapic.ch/site/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/012.jpg
F-16
http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/ELEC_F-16_HUD_lg.jpg

Both jets are fitted with large holographic HUDS in their later variants. Actually they both have had the technology since they were launched.

Phased array radar (AESA):

Mirage 2000
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-032bUiQWAPg/TfX32kKb2qI/AAAAAAAABP4/NA-zkPExJaw/s1600/rbe2aesamasque1.jpg
Mirage 2000 has been flight tested with an AESA and it is offered as an upgrade option.

F-16
http://afa.multiview.com/userlogo/afa/ps/9399v1v1.jpg

The F-16 is currently in service with the UAE fielding an AESA and multiple different radars featuring the same technology are offered on the type.

Avionics:

We know next to nothing about the avionics fitted to the J-10B, the avionics fitted to the Mirage-2000 and F-16 come from manufacturers with a known performance reputation. The J-10 appears to have an entirely conventional aluminium structure with some composites like the F-16 and Mirage 2000. So in the case of avionics and design we can't say that the J-10B is superior.

Look Goldust if you are going to trash talk at least make sure that what you are saying is actually the case.

Ching Kuo with two conformal tanks.

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/idfconformal.jpg

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/idfconformal2.jpg

If, the US (Obama) won't sell more F-16's to ROC. It seems like put they would put the "Ching Kuo" back into production. Which, could be equipped with similar upgrades that the current F-16 Fleet is to receive. (i.e. AESA Radar, etc. etc.)

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A DSI inlet is hardly a new development and purely an aerodynamic solution. It has been tested on the F-16 as shown above but nobody has seen the need to push it. As for the Mirage 2000, a DSI inlet would not be of use over its variable shock cone for its project operational profile.

Experimental planes don't count. Just because the Japanese made a supersonic experimental plane in WW2 doesn't meant squat. JF-17 and J-10B are currently the only operational jets having DSI.

We know next to nothing about the avionics fitted to the J-10B, the avionics fitted to the Mirage-2000 and F-16 come from manufacturers with a known performance reputation. The J-10 appears to have an entirely conventional aluminium structure with some composites like the F-16 and Mirage 2000. So in the case of avionics and design we can't say that the J-10B is superior.

Look Goldust if you are going to trash talk at least make sure that what you are saying is actually the case.

Mirage 2000-5 has a narrow angle HUD, not a wide angle HUD like J-10B has. As for reputation, the days of Western domination are over. The West can't do squat in Syria or any other country anymore because BRICS says the days of Western imperialism are OVER. Technologically, J-10B blows away F-16E the one UAE has. Bring an F-16E up against a J-10B and I guarantee you it would be shot out of the sky so fast it would be funny.

J-10B's AESA cooling vent is pretty much the same as the one on F-16E. J-10B looks scarier than F-16E due to DSI air intake.

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J-10B radar frontal shot

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First of all DSI is a an aerodynamic solution to a problem, there is nothing magical about it. It offers advantages and disadvantage, whilst it simplifies construction of the airframe it narrows the speed range of the aircraft. They tested it on the F-16 and decided to not move forward with it whilst the Mirage 2000-5 is designed to perform a Mach-2 high altitude intercept. A variable shock cone is a preferred solution to a fixed inlet which is all DSI is. China mastering DSI is commendable but nothing particularly radical or beyond the abilities of Western aerospace manufacturers. Lockheed Martin did its DSI research in the 90's.

Are you saying that France a first tier Western nation with a cutting edge aerospace industry couldn't put a Wide Angled HUD on the Mirage 2000 if they wanted Goldust? There is one on the Rafale and Dassault offers it as an upgrade component for the Mirage-2000. Wide Angle Holographic HUD have been fitted to American and European fighter jets for many years and it is hardly seen as a cutting edge technology. Both France and America have moved onto full projection HMD so really I don't understand why you are so keen to point out that China can now make something that was done in the West many years ago. The F-16 has had a Wide Angle Holographic HUD since the 90's based on development work in the 80's.

We know nothing about the avionics on the J-10B or their performance, we know what avionics are fitted to the Block-60. It is in the public domain and we know that those systems represent the cutting edge of what the US has to offer. The US has been producing state of the art avionics for far longer then China, until we know what is exactly installed on the J-10B and there general operating profile we can't say if it is superior or inferior. Frankly I would put my money on the F-16 Block 60 having a significant edge over the J-10B at the moment.

Look trash talk can be fun Goldust but you are being nonsensical.

As for Syria, I am going to indroduce you to a new word:

Realpolitik

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We know nothing about the avionics on the J-10B or their performance, we know what avionics are fitted to the Block-60.

J-10B is around Mach 2, armed with PL-12. We know it's a deadly plane.

The US has been producing state of the art avionics for far longer then China, until we know what is exactly installed on the J-10B and there general operating profile we can't say if it is superior or inferior.

J-10B has at least PESA, most likely AESA. It has digital quadruplex FBW far more advanced than the ones on Taiwan's F-16 and Mirage 2000. We know J-10B has Tier 1 avionics amongst the very best in the world.

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Given a UAE pilot and a PLAAF pilot, I'd say it's a fare contest.

Chuck an Israeli or American into either jet and that's your winner.

As for end of Western imperial domination and Syria, Syria has nothing to do with Russia/China and everything to do with Western war weariness and the situation in Syria spiralling into sectarian violence with a large splash of Al Qaeda thrown in.

If the US wanted, it could smash the Syrians with ease. After all the Israelis fly over Syrian air space with absolute impunity.