Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit

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18 years 9 months

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...

They not only are allowed to redesign it (Sea Gripen and Gripen F may very well be designed together with Embraer), they get the entire South american market to themselves (pay license to SAAB for production).

This means they could sell a Gripen E with a cheaper pesa radar to the neighbors while being the only ones using a GaN based AESA from Selex. If SAAB sells more than they can produce (not entirely unlikely as there are already 118 Gripen E on order (60 to Sweden, 36 to Brazil + 22 to Switzerland) with Slovakia and Thailand may be looking at another 18-24 Gripens in the coming five years.

Just imagine if Embraer joins the FS2020 project. ;)


Why go to the trouble & expense of developing a new PESA radar, to sell in small volumes? The development cost, spread over a small number sold, would push the unit price up. If they wanted to cut the price, I think it'd be easier to fit a lower-cost AESA radar, perhaps the Grifo-E 'affordable' AESA radar Selex says it is working on. Brazil could co-operate on that, & maybe get a licence to make it.

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13 years 1 month

Posts: 10

Well, we have SAABs own statements and I think they are fairly credible.

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents and Images/About Saab/Investor relations/Financial presentations/2013/Saab_CMD2013_MJohansson.pdf
You wont find anything if you try to find GaAs on their site. It's all GaN.

Here are two custom searches if you want to try the difference, in google try
Saab Gripen GaAs aesa site:www.saabgroup.com (0 hits)
Saab Gripen GaN aesa site:www.saabgroup.com (3 hits)

I think that you are trying to apply a general statement about next generation radar, developed by Saab, on the (almost) already developed ES-05 (primarily developed by Selex). Your sources are at best indicative.

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15 years 8 months

Posts: 516

Rafale never won the competition, so there was no betrayal from Brazil.
Also France signed a billion dollars worth of contracts with Brazil last year. Nothing as juicy as FX-2, but that shows that there are no sour grapes.

The President of Brazil Mr. Lula had announced at an official ceremony in 2009 during the official visit of President of France being in this time Mr. Sarkozy that the Rafale F3 would be chosen for the Brazil Air Force .

After a lot of criticism in the Brazil press for this announcement had been made before the publication of the report about the competition among other fighters ( F/A 18E/F , Rafale F3 and Grippen NG ). In this report the winner would be the Grippen NG , but the Defense Minister of Brazil had announced that he would make another report in which the winner would be the Rafale F3 .

After the lack of French support for the proposal in 2010 of Brazil and Turkey to the nuclear program of Iran , the President of Brazil withdrew its purchase of the Rafale F3 , and had commented that President of France Mr. Sarkozy would have 'betrayed' the Brazil for not supporting the Brazil 's plan for nuclear program from Iran , and because of this the left the decision about the fighters to his successor who was his most important Minister , Mrs Rousseff .

The President of Brazil Mrs. Rousseff had mentioned that it would not choose the Rafale F3 due to its high cost when it would compared to the F/A 18 E/F Hornet and Grippen NG , indeed Ms. Rousseff would have opted for the F/A 18 E/F Hornet , however after the problem with the NSA would have given up this , which could have put the Rafale F3 as favorite again.

I do not know what the President of France said to the President of Brazil Mrs Rousseff and the former President Mr Lula in a private meeting with this last one to talk about the Rafale F3 , but surely he was quite convincing , and convinced the President of Brazil to announce that Grippen NG would be the victorious one week after the visit of the President of France.

Anyway Brazil should thank the President of France Mr. Hollande and the President and Vice President of Dassault , since they were able to convince the President of Brazil Mrs. Rousseff to end a competition that has been dragging in 18 years with the announced that Grippen NG would be the new fighter for the Brazil Air Force.

Congratulations to the President of France for having convinced the Brazil after 18 years to choose its new fighter.

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11 years 4 months

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Thnx maurobaggio,
anyway it seems from your reconstuction then no president of Sweden or of Saab spoke with any president (vice or former, male or female) of Brasil. And eventually Brsasil Air Force chosed the Gripen.
So maybe the eventual brasilian chose was determined from different factors then Mr. and Mrs. presidents or vicepresidents talks and any NSA involvement, as we wrote in the past pages.
Maybe it was a mere technical evaluation.

Regards

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12 years 11 months

Posts: 218


Maybe it was a mere technical evaluation.

You're probably right, but this shameful practice has to stop! This is military procurement that you're talking about!

The President of Brazil Mr. Lula had announced at an official ceremony in 2009 during the official visit of President of France being in this time Mr. Sarkozy that the Rafale F3 would be chosen for the Brazil Air Force

We will never know whether Lula was sincere, or whether he was just playing Sarkozy like a fiddle (though hindsight tends to favour the latter). However, the FAB reaction at the time made it crystal clear that no final decision had been made.

Congratulations to the President of France for having convinced the Brazil after 18 years to choose its new fighter.

I am not really sure that France botched that one, it's more a case of Gripen winning fair and square (i.e. no bribes or political pressure) by being the lowest bidder.

Member for

18 years 9 months

Posts: 13,432

Thnx maurobaggio,
anyway it seems from your reconstuction then no president of Sweden or of Saab spoke with any president (vice or former, male or female) of Brasil. ...

Regards


It would be difficult for a president of Sweden to talk to anyone. King XVI Carl Gustav, though . . .

Perhaps he had a word when Lula visited Sweden in 2007. ;) His wife, queen Silvia, is half Brazilian, BTW, & lived there from when she was 4 to 14 years old.

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11 years 4 months

Posts: 240

It would be difficult for a president of Sweden to talk to anyone. King XVI Carl Gustav, though . . .

Perhaps he had a word when Lula visited Sweden in 2007. ;) His wife, queen Silvia, is half Brazilian, BTW, & lived there from when she was 4 to 14 years old.

Oooopss, you are right, I meant the Swedish Prime Minister. Shame on me

You're probably right, but this shameful practice has to stop! This is military procurement that you're talking about!

:applause:

Member for

15 years 8 months

Posts: 516

You're probably right, but this shameful practice has to stop! This is military procurement that you're talking about!

We will never know whether Lula was sincere, or whether he was just playing Sarkozy like a fiddle (though hindsight tends to favour the latter). However, the FAB reaction at the time made it crystal clear that no final decision had been made.

I am not really sure that France botched that one, it's more a case of Gripen winning fair and square (i.e. no bribes or political pressure) by being the lowest bidder.

If the President of Brazil Mr. Lula was 'playing' in 2009 with President of France Mr. Sarkozy of in accordance with Confucius say post, then the former Defense Minister of Brazil Mr. Jobin would have enjoyed this 'playing' and decided to continue with this in early 2010 when it announced that the Rafale F3 would be chosen for the Brazil Air Force even though the Gripen NG had been indicated as favorite by the report of the Brazil Air Force .

Indeed the former Defense Minister Jobin had been said in several occasions that the report of the Brazil Air Force did not consider important features, and so would make a new report on the Rafale F3 would be nominated as the best for Brazil Air Force.

However this 'playing' with the Rafale F3 had ended when France did not support the proposal by Brazil and Turkey to the Iranian nuclear program in 2010.

I would like to know the Confucius analysis when President Lula said to President Sarkozy that Brazil and France were strategic partners in 2009 that also would be 'playing'?

Just as a note, the current President of Brazil Mrs. Rousself also mentioned this strategic partnership in her speech for the President of France Mr. Hollande on its official visit to Brazil, however a week after the official visit of the President of France Mr. Hollande , the President of Brazil had announced that the Gripen NG would be chosen for the Air Force of Brazil .

While France with Rafale F3 and the U.S. with the F/A 18E/F won diplomatic praise, Sweden got the contract with the Gripen NG.

Perhaps the Sweden would like more to win diplomatic praise from Brazil instead the contract with the Gripen NG ...

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15 years 5 months

Posts: 6,983

"Perhaps the Sweden would like more to win diplomatic praise from Brazil instead the contract with the Gripen NG ..."
:)
Got me thinking...it may in the end be a good move for to join up with Brazil, for the extra political weight

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While France with Rafale F3 and the U.S. with the F/A 18E/F won diplomatic praise, Sweden got the contract with the Gripen NG.

The diplomatic ties with Brazil is more important than "just" a bird.
From the french side (I will not replay the movie since Lula/Sarkozy love story) there is already importants contracts in the pipeline, we cannot complain of the situation if you make a comparison with our "alliance" with UAE.

Member for

15 years 8 months

Posts: 516

The diplomatic ties with Brazil is more important than "just" a bird.
From the french side (I will not replay the movie since Lula/Sarkozy love story) there is already importants contracts in the pipeline, we cannot complain of the situation if you make a comparison with our "alliance" with UAE.

Despite all my unforgivable sins that I don't have the minor slightest regret, I have great faith for mankind and because of that I believe that the President of France had encouraged Brazil to close the competition that had 18 years and finally choose the Gripen NG, once there would be restrictions about the Rafale F 3 and F/A 18E/F Hornet .

Although it should be obvious that the President of France Mr. Hollande wanted the Rafale F3 were chosen, diplomatic factors would be more important once France had been biggest supporter of Brazil to the UN Security Council , and like Brazil has been employing only 47 F 5E/F Tiger II that should be embarrassing from France that had supported Brazil to gain a seat on the UN Security Council.

Indeed the high pretension from Brazil to the UN Security Council had been expressed since the early 2000's . That could be one of the reasons Brazil to receive the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016, once it were part of the campaign of Brazil to obtain high visibility on the World stage with the aim of obtain a seat on the UN Security Council .

In reason of that Brazil had jointed with Turkey to propose a plan for the nuclear program of Iran , and this union was not accidental since the U.S. secretly supported the participation of Brazil with Turkey , If this plan had worked Brazil could get the credentials to UN Security Council.

In 2009 with the visit of the President of France Mr. Sarkozy to Brazil became high noticeable the support from France to Brazil for the UN Security Council .

However some new issue arose in 2010, once the U.S. had been repudiated in public the proposal of Brazil and Turkey to the nuclear program of Iran , and even more astonishing were that all others World Powers ( Russia, China, UK and France) followed the U.S. .

Just because this in 2010 that Brazil had put the U.S. side by side with Russia , this should already be a reason for Brazil to be in the UN Security Council.

In retaliation for France not supported the propose of the Brazil about the Nuclear Plan from Iran, since the Rafale F3 was the favorite to win the competition in 2010, the President of Brazil Mr. Lula had been postponed the choice and left it to his successor this decision, and his successor did it in December 2013 with the choice of Gripen NG one week after the visit of the President of France Mr. Hollande.

About the fact that the F/A 18E/F Hornet had become the favorite until the problem with the NSA ...

To Be Continued

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Indeed the high pretension from Brazil to the UN Security Council had been expressed since the early 2000's . That could be one of the reasons Brazil to receive the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016, once it were part of the campaign of Brazil to obtain high visibility on the World stage with the aim of obtain a seat on the UN Security Council .

This is exactly why you should have had alrdy a long range fighter OR the Grip + Carriers.

When you pretend to be something on the international arena you've to be prepared to be undermined. One way of dealing with that is via brutish Mil power. The gunboat politic... but in reverse.

Today that's what a force of Raf, F18, PAKFA or F22 is.

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maurobaggio this connection you make between Brazilian-Turkish attempts at an Iranian resolution and repercussions for Brazilian-French and Brazilian-US relations are interesting. I would be interested in hearing more about why France did not back the Brazilian-Turkish effort and the resulting fallout. Also, where are you getting the idea that the US initially supported the Brazilian-Turkish effort but later backed out? My impression was that the US was affronted by and rubbished the effort from the very start; in any case, why did the lack of US support not have the same implications for Brazilian-US relations that you attribute to Brazilian-French relations for their lack of support?

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15 years 8 months

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maurobaggio this connection you make between Brazilian-Turkish attempts at an Iranian resolution and repercussions for Brazilian-French and Brazilian-US relations are interesting. I would be interested in hearing more about why France did not back the Brazilian-Turkish effort and the resulting fallout. Also, where are you getting the idea that the US initially supported the Brazilian-Turkish effort but later backed out? My impression was that the US was affronted by and rubbished the effort from the very start; in any case, why did the lack of US support not have the same implications for Brazilian-US relations that you attribute to Brazilian-French relations for their lack of support?

I had the expectation that a good kind soul might have already answered this since could be long story and various obscure parts, even though I do not have a soul in the opinion of my deceased friends, I will try to do this in stages, once the "best" part always gets to the end.

18 Years of Competition

In fact when nations such as France and the U.S. had been supported the the appointment of Brazil for the UN Security Council, it would be a reasonable indication that Brazil were negotiating an agreement for the nuclear program with Iran during the year 2009.

However the most notable fact should be that the U.S. President Mr. Barak Obama sent a letter hitherto secret to the President of Brazil Mr. Lula that U.S. had approved Brazil and Turkey to talks with Iran . Although Turkey is a great nation , but Turkey has belongs to NATO and for this reason Turkey could be working closely with other members of NATO as U.S..

That secret letter from then President Mr. Barak Obama had been shown as proof for the Iranians authorities that Brazil had recognition from the U.S. to propose a plan for the Nuclear program of Iran.

Anyway the U.S. had been not satisfied with the proposal for the nuclear program of Iran in 2010 that were submitted by Brazil and Turkey that Iran would send its Uranium isotopes in concentrations of 20% would be stored in Turkey.in this case should be enough to mention this in private way, however what the U.S. did repudiating in public was in fact remove the credentials that Brazil would be representing the U.S. with Iran.

Apparently the opinion of Brazil were that the U.S. would have been arrogant to dismiss the plan in 2010.

But in an extremely superficial analysis the U.S. would have several reasons for this besides arrogance, since the plan from Brazil and Turkey had not eliminated the problem of Uranium at 20% from Iran, once this would be stored in Turkey, but this plan could create others problems, not to mention Israel, because at anytime Iran could order the return of the fissile material, and in this case if Turkey refused this could lead at conflict with Iran . As Turkey is a NATO member, it could put NATO at war with Iran.

Even with the loss of support of the U.S., Brazil had still tried to persuade the other members of the UN Security Council that the plan were feasible , but not even France would have assumed it had a 'strategic partnership' with Brazil did not support the proposal by Brazil after the U.S. refusal.

Everything points to a new problem arose in 2010 that made the U.S. withdraw Brazil as interlocutors with Iran, and this problem also led the other members of the Security Council ( Russia, UK, France and China) to follow the U.S..

Agreements are proposed and refused every day, but what was still without an obvious answer was the reason President Lula from Brazil had felt betrayed by France, and in reason of that canceled the announcement of the acquisition of the new fighter for Brazilian Air Force as retaliation for France just because the Rafale F3 from France were the favorite at this time, and in this competition the F/A 18E/F Hornet from U.S. along the Gripen NG from Sweden were participating too.

The successor of President Mr. Lula from Brazil that was his most important minister had been keeping the program to acquire a new fighter suspended for almost three years until December 2013. After one week for the visit of President Mr. Hollande from France, the President of Brazil Mrs. Rousseff has finally decided the purchase of Gripen NG which was the most scored by the Brazilian Air Force report in 2009.

In this period of three years, and in the aerospace industry that is long time, the Brazil not agreed to reconsider any other proposal made by Europeans about the Typhoon, or even the Russians that had been tried to include the Su 35S and MiG 35, or even the PAK FA. After all both the Russia and the UK also did not support the proposal submitted by Brazil in 2010.

The reason was that Brazil and the U.S. would be overcoming the divergences had been created with Iran's nuclear program in 2010, and the acquisition of the F/A 18E/F Hornet would be the confirmation of this 'new start', so it would not be desirable to include new competitors that could disrupt the re-approximation between Brazil and the US.

To illustrate this just imagine the F/A 18E/F Hornet as a big bouquet of roses or a big box of chocolates, or maybe a diamond ring...

To Be Continued