By: Amiga500
- 24th October 2013 at 18:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm still not buying the Mach 2.8 top speed for the MiG-31.
Well then your out of luck.
The USAF have observed Foxhounds travelling at M2.6 for hundreds of miles.
Even sferrin has admitted this:
sferrin:
Just a point of interest. I was thumbing through a book about variuous "incidents" in B&N years ago (stuff like the Gulf of Sydra, KAL 007 etc.) and they had an interesting bit of information on the latter. Some might recall that F-15s and an E-3 were sent to the general area immediately after the shootdown and that the USSR responded by sending Mig-31s to the area. One of the F-15 pilots being interviewed commented that the Mig-31s "made the 620 mile run down at Mach 2.6".
By: RpR
- 24th October 2013 at 19:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Head to head, the winner would be the one who kept the fight within that one's optimum altitude and tactic.
We do NOT KNOW, (If we do the Russian Air Force is run by dorks) exactly how well the radar on a Mig-31 works. IF it works as well as that on an F-106, it can see and and track, an F-15 long before the F-15 sees the Mig. (Remember this is an interceptor and they are designed to see a bogey a looong ways out.
If ECM is good enough in both aircraft that the missiles are dogs that don't hunt, then in my opinion, the Mig would do best to make one gun run and boogie.
By: Levsha
- 24th October 2013 at 19:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The USAF have observed Foxhounds travelling at M2.6 for hundreds of miles.
How many 'hundreds'?
It would be interesting to compare the endurance of of such types as the Su-27, F-15, F-4 when flying at Mach 2+ speeds. What's the combat radius of an MiG-25 flying at M2.6+? I think it may be no more than 300km?
Oops, edit, I see 620 miles quoted, It sounds a bit much - I doubt if the MiG was doing M2.6 for all of those 600 miles...
By: Amiga500
- 24th October 2013 at 20:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oops, edit, I see 620 miles quoted, It sounds a bit much - I doubt if the MiG was doing M2.6 for all of those 600 miles...
Well, that was the USAF observing it. There are more quotes surrounding the incident (that are relevant), but I don't have them to hand.
A bit of time on google might turn them up if your keen.
I believe it stood-out because of the remarkable endurance of the speed run - otherwise it wouldn't have been commented on to begin with if you get my drift.
By: Vnomad
- 24th October 2013 at 20:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Slower speed, lower altitude, weaker sensors, shorter weapon range.. Except maneuvrability, what speaks for the Eagle?
How did the Tornado ADV fare against F-15s in DACT?
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By: MSphere
- 24th October 2013 at 21:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The F-15 would not be going into any engagement blind, it would have AWACS supports as I assume the MiG-31 would have. The AMRAAM may not have the R-40's range but it can get the Eagle close enough to be moderately safe and have a decent kill probablility. The trick would be to get the Foxhound into a dogfight. The Eagle cannot go up to 80,000' but the Foxhound is not going to fly/fight at that level. It would probably top out at 60K-65K where the Eagle has a much better chance of a shot. I'm still not buying the Mach 2.8 top speed for the MiG-31. I have heard it is more like Mach 2.4 and that is something the Eagle can handle.
R-40 is dated hardware. Current MiG-31BMs are using R-33S missiles.. The F-15 can get splashed from well over 100-150km distance. Even if it is able to evade the incoming missiles, a skilled Foxhound pilot can easily manage to stay well out of range of Eagle's claws (AIM-120 ~ 40km?).
IMHO, it's either a kill for the MiG-31 or a draw.
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By: MSphere
- 24th October 2013 at 21:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How did the Tornado ADV fare against F-15s in DACT?
By: Levsha
- 24th October 2013 at 22:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
R-40 is dated hardware. Current MiG-31BMs are using R-33S missiles.. The F-15 can get splashed from well over 100-150km distance. Even if it is able to evade the incoming missiles, a skilled Foxhound pilot can easily manage to stay well out of range of Eagle's claws (AIM-120 ~ 40km?).
IMHO, it's either a kill for the MiG-31 or a draw.
How did Iranian F-14A do against Iraqi Mirage F1, MiG-21, MiG-23 during the 1st Gulf war? Sadddam's warplanes were still able to get a few Tomcat kills in the end, were they not - despite the long range of the AIM-54A missile?
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By: MSphere
- 24th October 2013 at 22:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sure... Use poor tactics and you're a goner even in F-22. No aircraft is invulnerable.
By: Tu 160
- 25th October 2013 at 00:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One thing to remember that Mig 31 primarily role in war was not to engage enemy fighters even though the current version of the R33S is quite maneuverable and is capable of shooting down modern maneuvering fighters such as F15. Mig31 primary role was to shoot down enemy AWACS and Tankers and a large force of Mig 31 such as Russian VVS posses can easily paralyze the US airforce or Navy aviation or any western airforces by attacking and easily destroying its AWACS and Tankers. F15,F18E and even F22 escort will not be able to stop and protect against a Mig31 attack vs AWACS and Tankers consisting of about 12 or even less Mig31 flying at 75,000ft+ and mach 2.4-2.7+ and launching its missles 100+ miles away. Also R33S is not a direct equivalent of the ancient AIM 54C phoenix,R33S has greater range and is much more maneuverable than the AIM 54C phoenix missle. So if you are in an AWACS or Tanker and you have a group of Mig31 attacking you,then might as well kiss your a$$ goodbye as no friendly fighter will save you and you are too slow to get away.
By: RpR
- 25th October 2013 at 04:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One thing to remember that Mig 31 primarily role in war was not to engage enemy fighters even though the current version of the R33S is quite maneuverable and is capable of shooting down modern maneuvering fighters such as F15. Mig31 primary role was to shoot down enemy AWACS and Tankers and a large force of Mig 31 such as Russian VVS posses can easily paralyze the US airforce or Navy aviation or any western airforces by attacking and easily destroying its AWACS and Tankers. F15,F18E and even F22 escort will not be able to stop and protect against a Mig31 attack vs AWACS and Tankers consisting of about 12 or even less Mig31 flying at 75,000ft+ and mach 2.4-2.7+ and launching its missles 100+ miles away. Also R33S is not a direct equivalent of the ancient AIM 54C phoenix,R33S has greater range and is much more maneuverable than the AIM 54C phoenix missle. So if you are in an AWACS or Tanker and you have a group of Mig31 attacking you,then might as well kiss your a$$ goodbye as no friendly fighter will save you and you are too slow to get away.
I am sure an AWACS, used by any air force has the most sophisticated ECM in existance.
The AWACS could see the Migs, or any opposition before the opposition could see it.
An AWACS could be destroyed but those attacking would have the "failure is not an option" attitude as if they were defending their own mother.
The price would be high, of course this is the reason air forces used to have interceptors in the high hundreds if not more.
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By: Y-20 Bacon
- 25th October 2013 at 06:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How did Iranian F-14A do against Iraqi Mirage F1, MiG-21, MiG-23 during the 1st Gulf war? Sadddam's warplanes were still able to get a few Tomcat kills in the end, were they not - despite the long range of the AIM-54A missile?
did pretty damn well.
Jalil Zandi shot down 11 aircraft in his F-14 which include Migs 21,23 and Mirage F-1 and Su-22.
Theres a few other Iranian F-14 aces with 6 kills.
I counted around 70-76 F-14 victories in Iran-Iraq war and 5 shot downs. ACIG claims up to 90.
Iraq's positive kill aircraft is their MiG-25.
what can we learn from the Iran-Iraq war?
that all the cannon fodder aircraft "MiG-21, F-5, Mirage F-1, and MiG-23" were lighter fighters and were the ones being shot down more than shooting down.
i guess this threw a wrench in Spey's theories as the Mig-25 and F-14 were the successful types.
By: Tu 160
- 25th October 2013 at 07:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mig31 has better endurance and range at full afterburner than the F22 at supercruise, also Mig31 top speed is not Mach2.83,it is limited operationally to that speed to prevent excessive engine wear, but Mig31 can easily achieve mach 3 and perhaps even slightly more in an emergency if really needed so its as fast as a Mig25 and Mig31 can be called a true mach 3 fighter. Mig31 acceleration is also phenominal, most likely better than any fighter in the world except that of the Pakfa
Mig31 especially the Mig31BM have very powerful radar and they can burn thru pretty much any AWAS ECM and guide the missles to target so that will not save the AWACS.
I am sure an AWACS, used by any air force has the most sophisticated ECM in existance.
The AWACS could see the Migs, or any opposition before the opposition could see it.
An AWACS could be destroyed but those attacking would have the "failure is not an option" attitude as if they were defending their own mother.
The price would be high, of course this is the reason air forces used to have interceptors in the high hundreds if not more.
its not fair to count Mig23 as a crappy cannon fodder aircraft because of Iran Iraq War, don't forget the Iraq Airforce only had crappy monkey export version of Mig23 with that tiny little pathetic export radar and radome, if a real Soviet Air Force Grade Mig23bis with Mig23bis radar fire control system, decent missile warning system and ECM was involved in that war and flown by a well trained competent Soviet pilot and flown in adequate sized groups then they would of been a force to be rekoned with and easily shot down many F14 as a skilled Mig23bis pilot could of easily outmaneuvered the sluggish AIM54 and counterattacked the F14
did pretty damn well.
Jalil Zandi shot down 11 aircraft in his F-14 which include Migs 21,23 and Mirage F-1 and Su-22.
Theres a few other Iranian F-14 aces with 6 kills.
I counted around 70-76 F-14 victories in Iran-Iraq war and 5 shot downs. ACIG claims up to 90.
Iraq's positive kill aircraft is their MiG-25.
what can we learn from the Iran-Iraq war?
that all the cannon fodder aircraft "MiG-21, F-5, Mirage F-1, and MiG-23" were lighter fighters and were the ones being shot down more than shooting down.
i guess this threw a wrench in Spey's theories as the Mig-25 and F-14 were the successful types.
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By: Y-20 Bacon
- 25th October 2013 at 07:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: sheytanelkebir
- 25th October 2013 at 11:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
did pretty damn well.
Jalil Zandi shot down 11 aircraft in his F-14 which include Migs 21,23 and Mirage F-1 and Su-22.
Theres a few other Iranian F-14 aces with 6 kills.
I counted around 70-76 F-14 victories in Iran-Iraq war and 5 shot downs. ACIG claims up to 90.
most of those claims are "disputed" by new Iraqi numbers. But Iran's lack of success is not down to the aircraft / weapon so much.
Iraq's positive kill aircraft is their MiG-25.
no. It was the MiG23ML and Mirage F1 and MiG21.
what can we learn from the Iran-Iraq war?
that most of the "accepted wisdom" about it is not true.
that all the cannon fodder aircraft "MiG-21, F-5, Mirage F-1, and MiG-23" were lighter fighters and were the ones being shot down more than shooting down.
i guess this threw a wrench in Spey's theories as the Mig-25 and F-14 were the successful types.
not really. The only saving grace for the MiG25 was its kinematic performance.
By: sheytanelkebir
- 25th October 2013 at 11:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
its not fair to count Mig23 as a crappy cannon fodder aircraft because of Iran Iraq War, don't forget the Iraq Airforce only had crappy monkey export version of Mig23 with that tiny little pathetic export radar and radome, if a real Soviet Air Force Grade Mig23bis with Mig23bis radar fire control system, decent missile warning system and ECM was involved in that war and flown by a well trained competent Soviet pilot and flown in adequate sized groups then they would of been a force to be rekoned with and easily shot down many F14 as a skilled Mig23bis pilot could of easily outmaneuvered the sluggish AIM54 and counterattacked the F14
Iraqis had MiG23MF and MiG23ML... within a month of Iraqis recieving the MiG23ML it shot down an F14. Not bad going. You're still regurgitating the iranian propaganda spread via the ACIG channel... ;)
In reality it was ground based air defences that were the biggest threats followed by MiG23ML and F4Es. Neither the MiG25 nor F14 played a "major" role. They were good planes, and played a "minor" role certainly.
By: Mercurius
- 25th October 2013 at 14:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
R33S is not a direct equivalent of the ancient AIM 54C phoenix,R33S has greater range and is much more maneuverable than the AIM 54C phoenix missle.
I have seen no manoeuvrability figures for either missile, but the published maximum range of the R-33S is 160 km, and that of the AGM-54C was 150 km, so the range improvement was only marginal.
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By: Amiga500 - 24th October 2013 at 18:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well then your out of luck.
The USAF have observed Foxhounds travelling at M2.6 for hundreds of miles.
Even sferrin has admitted this:
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By: RpR - 24th October 2013 at 19:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Head to head, the winner would be the one who kept the fight within that one's optimum altitude and tactic.
We do NOT KNOW, (If we do the Russian Air Force is run by dorks) exactly how well the radar on a Mig-31 works. IF it works as well as that on an F-106, it can see and and track, an F-15 long before the F-15 sees the Mig. (Remember this is an interceptor and they are designed to see a bogey a looong ways out.
If ECM is good enough in both aircraft that the missiles are dogs that don't hunt, then in my opinion, the Mig would do best to make one gun run and boogie.
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By: Levsha - 24th October 2013 at 19:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How many 'hundreds'?
It would be interesting to compare the endurance of of such types as the Su-27, F-15, F-4 when flying at Mach 2+ speeds. What's the combat radius of an MiG-25 flying at M2.6+? I think it may be no more than 300km?
Oops, edit, I see 620 miles quoted, It sounds a bit much - I doubt if the MiG was doing M2.6 for all of those 600 miles...
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By: Freehand - 24th October 2013 at 19:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
620 miles at 2.6 Mach is a little over twenty minutes flight time at that speed. Could a MiG-31 do that before it goes bingo fuel?
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By: Amiga500 - 24th October 2013 at 20:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, that was the USAF observing it. There are more quotes surrounding the incident (that are relevant), but I don't have them to hand.
A bit of time on google might turn them up if your keen.
I believe it stood-out because of the remarkable endurance of the speed run - otherwise it wouldn't have been commented on to begin with if you get my drift.
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By: Vnomad - 24th October 2013 at 20:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How did the Tornado ADV fare against F-15s in DACT?
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By: MSphere - 24th October 2013 at 21:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
R-40 is dated hardware. Current MiG-31BMs are using R-33S missiles.. The F-15 can get splashed from well over 100-150km distance. Even if it is able to evade the incoming missiles, a skilled Foxhound pilot can easily manage to stay well out of range of Eagle's claws (AIM-120 ~ 40km?).
IMHO, it's either a kill for the MiG-31 or a draw.
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By: MSphere - 24th October 2013 at 21:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't know. Got any data?Posts: 2,814
By: Levsha - 24th October 2013 at 22:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How did Iranian F-14A do against Iraqi Mirage F1, MiG-21, MiG-23 during the 1st Gulf war? Sadddam's warplanes were still able to get a few Tomcat kills in the end, were they not - despite the long range of the AIM-54A missile?
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By: MSphere - 24th October 2013 at 22:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sure... Use poor tactics and you're a goner even in F-22. No aircraft is invulnerable.
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By: Tu 160 - 25th October 2013 at 00:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One thing to remember that Mig 31 primarily role in war was not to engage enemy fighters even though the current version of the R33S is quite maneuverable and is capable of shooting down modern maneuvering fighters such as F15. Mig31 primary role was to shoot down enemy AWACS and Tankers and a large force of Mig 31 such as Russian VVS posses can easily paralyze the US airforce or Navy aviation or any western airforces by attacking and easily destroying its AWACS and Tankers. F15,F18E and even F22 escort will not be able to stop and protect against a Mig31 attack vs AWACS and Tankers consisting of about 12 or even less Mig31 flying at 75,000ft+ and mach 2.4-2.7+ and launching its missles 100+ miles away. Also R33S is not a direct equivalent of the ancient AIM 54C phoenix,R33S has greater range and is much more maneuverable than the AIM 54C phoenix missle. So if you are in an AWACS or Tanker and you have a group of Mig31 attacking you,then might as well kiss your a$$ goodbye as no friendly fighter will save you and you are too slow to get away.
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By: RpR - 25th October 2013 at 04:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am sure an AWACS, used by any air force has the most sophisticated ECM in existance.The AWACS could see the Migs, or any opposition before the opposition could see it.
An AWACS could be destroyed but those attacking would have the "failure is not an option" attitude as if they were defending their own mother.
The price would be high, of course this is the reason air forces used to have interceptors in the high hundreds if not more.
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By: Y-20 Bacon - 25th October 2013 at 06:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
did pretty damn well.
Jalil Zandi shot down 11 aircraft in his F-14 which include Migs 21,23 and Mirage F-1 and Su-22.
Theres a few other Iranian F-14 aces with 6 kills.
I counted around 70-76 F-14 victories in Iran-Iraq war and 5 shot downs. ACIG claims up to 90.
Iraq's positive kill aircraft is their MiG-25.
what can we learn from the Iran-Iraq war?
that all the cannon fodder aircraft "MiG-21, F-5, Mirage F-1, and MiG-23" were lighter fighters and were the ones being shot down more than shooting down.
i guess this threw a wrench in Spey's theories as the Mig-25 and F-14 were the successful types.
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By: Tu 160 - 25th October 2013 at 07:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mig31 has better endurance and range at full afterburner than the F22 at supercruise, also Mig31 top speed is not Mach2.83,it is limited operationally to that speed to prevent excessive engine wear, but Mig31 can easily achieve mach 3 and perhaps even slightly more in an emergency if really needed so its as fast as a Mig25 and Mig31 can be called a true mach 3 fighter. Mig31 acceleration is also phenominal, most likely better than any fighter in the world except that of the Pakfa
Mig31 especially the Mig31BM have very powerful radar and they can burn thru pretty much any AWAS ECM and guide the missles to target so that will not save the AWACS.
its not fair to count Mig23 as a crappy cannon fodder aircraft because of Iran Iraq War, don't forget the Iraq Airforce only had crappy monkey export version of Mig23 with that tiny little pathetic export radar and radome, if a real Soviet Air Force Grade Mig23bis with Mig23bis radar fire control system, decent missile warning system and ECM was involved in that war and flown by a well trained competent Soviet pilot and flown in adequate sized groups then they would of been a force to be rekoned with and easily shot down many F14 as a skilled Mig23bis pilot could of easily outmaneuvered the sluggish AIM54 and counterattacked the F14
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By: Y-20 Bacon - 25th October 2013 at 07:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Canada.. F-yeah!
you guys are missing out eh
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By: sheytanelkebir - 25th October 2013 at 11:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
most of those claims are "disputed" by new Iraqi numbers. But Iran's lack of success is not down to the aircraft / weapon so much.
no. It was the MiG23ML and Mirage F1 and MiG21.
that most of the "accepted wisdom" about it is not true.
not really. The only saving grace for the MiG25 was its kinematic performance.
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By: sheytanelkebir - 25th October 2013 at 11:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Iraqis had MiG23MF and MiG23ML... within a month of Iraqis recieving the MiG23ML it shot down an F14. Not bad going. You're still regurgitating the iranian propaganda spread via the ACIG channel... ;)
In reality it was ground based air defences that were the biggest threats followed by MiG23ML and F4Es. Neither the MiG25 nor F14 played a "major" role. They were good planes, and played a "minor" role certainly.
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By: Fedaykin - 25th October 2013 at 12:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course the irony is the Mig-31 is similar in capability and performance to what the Canadians wanted out of the Avro Arrow.
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By: sheytanelkebir - 25th October 2013 at 13:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
miG31 would be good for Canada :D shame that it won't happen :(
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By: Mercurius - 25th October 2013 at 14:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have seen no manoeuvrability figures for either missile, but the published maximum range of the R-33S is 160 km, and that of the AGM-54C was 150 km, so the range improvement was only marginal.