Possible Scottish Defece Force

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Please I intend this to be a genuine what if thread ...If you want to dicuss whether it'll happen or not and the politics surrounding it please use the General section. Earlier this week the SNP set out if there was a Yes vote on September 18th Next year, what a Scottish Defence Force would be made of by "Independence Day" in March 2016. That's after 18 months of initial negotiations. The Scottish Defence Force Orbat would look like this... Airforce HQ (embedded within NATO structures) A QRA Sqn - Min 12 Typhoons based at Lossiemouth A Tactical Air transport Sqn, including approx 6 C130J and a Helicopter Sqn Flight Training through Joint Arrangement with Allies. Scotland remains part of NATO's AC2 through current agreements during establishment of Scottish Defence Forces own AC2 during first 5 Years of Independence. 2 Frigates Command Platform for Naval Ops and development of Specialist Marine Capabilities (Adapted from a current RN Vessel) 4 Mine Counter Measure Vessels 2 OPVs (RN only has 4 total, so possible Longer lead procurement) Auxiliary support Ships (Initially Shared with RN) A Deployable Brigade HQ 2 Light Armed reconnaissance Units 2 Light Artillery Units 1 Engineering Unit (Bridging/mine clearance/Engineering Functions) 1 Aviation Unit operating 6 Helicopters in reccon and liaison roles. 2 communications Units 1 Transport Unit 1 Logistics unit 1 Medical Unit Also Special Forces and Explosive/Ordnance Disposal teams The plan then goes on to highlight Independence + 5 years Increase number of Typhoons possibly to 16 allowing possible overseas deployment Increasing Scottish Contribution to Air Defence capabilities as part of integrated NATO System Specification of requirement and initial steps of procurement of an MPA Type. Possibly 4 aircraft 2 further Frigates tanker/ support ship capacity Develop All Arms Brigade's capabilities Increase infantry Strength Upgrading Light Armour, artillery, aviation and Medical Units increase strength of Special Forces unit Increase Deployable personnel to conflict prevention, disarmament defence diplomacy. Source:Scotland's Future Opinions please... Is 18 months long enough to establish the initial levels? Is there anything more that should be initially in place? What about after the 5 year mark...would that level be achievable or sustainable. Could more be done in that 5 years, if so what else? Finally if the Scottish Defence Force didn't have to take shares from the RAF, but instead was given a blank sheet of paper, what would a realistic Orbat be like as a initial wish-list, and then at the 5 year mark?
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Frankly, this SNP and their cohort are mad... They want to senselessly split the British Isles even more than they already are?! To what frigging purpose?! If it was me, in the eventuality this split will actually happen the remaining UK shouldn't give them squat, you want independence, fine, have it, now go and buy your own stuff with your own money! I hope though that this madness (madness, honestly!) won't come through and common sense will prevail in the end.

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My own views are that in some areas it sounds about right, in other areas we could be over reaching for the initial agreement. I'm not sure that a Scottish Defence Force could stand up and support 12 Typhoons, instead I think I'd be looking at perhaps Scottish Defence force Personnel in including pilots operating within the RAF QRA structure (just as foreign exchange pilots do) building up to joint QRA flights of Scottish Marked and RAF marked jets operating together phasing the RAF element out. The TacAir element again I'm not sure we would need 6 Hercs initially, but I would say that there would be a very specific agreement that the hercs are replaced by A400Ms as they become available, though not necessarily on 1 for 1 basis. I'm a fan of the Merlin, so I'd like to see that as Scotland's support helicopter before they are all given away to the RN. Not mentioned above but there is to be a Defence review by the first Independent Government during which the MPA would be specified ... I'd like to see the current Scottish Government form an all party committee to specifically start the MPA requirement process during the 18 months prior to the Independence date. come up with a plan and suggest a joint buy with the Remainder of the UK. The sooner the Current UK or Scotland/RoUK get these aircraft the better. The Naval component I really don't know enough to comment on, other than what I've read on these pages... if the OPV's are the ones newly announced or the Scottish Defence Force is looking at future new builds, I believe the consensus is that it's not the 90m that's been mention but a 100m or 110m version. Looking at the 5 years down the road points, 16 typhoons, pooled across 2 squadrons makes sense, it could be argued perhaps for up to 20. I'd like the A400Ms that come on steam to have the full AAR capability in place, giving Scotland it's own generic if perhaps limited AAR. I'd like to see the first of the MPAs coming on stream soon, I'd probably select the C295, but I'd also as part of the order have perhaps 4 or 5 cargo haulers as well. Naval wise, by the 5 year point I'd like to think that as the size grows, Scotland would be in a position to take part in joint task forces on piracy or drug interdiction where appropriate to do so.

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Frankly, this SNP and their cohort are mad... They want to senselessly split the British Isles even more than they already are?! To what frigging purpose?!
To have laws, taxes and systems more in-line with the needs of the local people rather than everything London-centric. Anyway, as regards their "defence force". Forget about fast-jets. No need. If you don't go around pissing people off, then you don't need to drop bombs on anyone or intercept bombers/missiles heading your way. A few naval patrol boats. Some maritime patrol/SAR aircraft and boats, a reserve army and they are done.

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16 typhoons, pooled across 2 squadrons makes sense, it could be argued perhaps for up to 20.
In what world does it make sense to have 20x£100+ million tied up in completely unnecessary fighters?!?! You planning on changing your name to William Wallace and then invade England?

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Considering that Russian MPA pay regular visits to the edges of the UK airspace, iS would probably want to be able to Police its airspace. They also made a fuss when the Adm Kuznetsov sheltered in Scottish waters, blaming England for not basing any surface vessels in Scotland, hence they moaned HMS York had to sail all the way from Portsmouth. Hence they want patrol boats and MPA. The SNP want to be nuclear free, but they also want the security of NATO. They will claim they have already paid for 16 Typhoons so will probably try to convince NATO that they can provide competent air defence on the northern flank, and offer low level training areas and ranges. They will hope this will be enough for NATO to turn a blind eye when the kick Trident out of Coulport and effectively cause a capability gap for one of NATO's most powerful members.
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One thing that seems a bit off to me is that as Scotland is entitled to about 10% of UK military assets, is this a fair level or equipment? It looks about right, but 2 frigates is quite a big number of the total UK vessels, as is 6 C-130s. Though I suppose if they don't want any submarines it balances out?

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silly times. 'Independent' with the £.
Profile picture for user swerve

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Frankly, this SNP and their cohort are mad... They want to senselessly split the British Isles even more than they already are?! To what frigging purpose?!
Agreed.
If it was me, in the eventuality this split will actually happen the remaining UK shouldn't give them squat, you want independence, fine, have it, now go and buy your own stuff with your own money!....
Scotland's share of government debt would pay for the military equipment the SNP wants many times over.

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They also made a fuss when the Adm Kuznetsov sheltered in Scottish waters, blaming England for not basing any surface vessels in Scotland, hence they moaned HMS York had to sail all the way from Portsmouth. Hence they want patrol boats and MPA.
The Kuznetsov group were in International Waters off Scotland. The Kuznetsov Group is due to deploy again before years end and will likely use that portion of the Moray Firth if shelter or link up with Baltic assets is required. December 2011 link http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/News-and-Events/Latest-News/2011/December/14/111214-HW-York-FRE
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If it was me, in the eventuality this split will actually happen the remaining UK shouldn't give them squat, you want independence, fine, have it, now go and buy your own stuff with your own money!.
Personally I care not whether the Scots vote for or against independence. But given that the Scots pay the same taxes as the rest of the UK, they helped pay for the defence hardware in question.

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I think the question is how many of the Scots within the UK armed forces will want to transfer across and that is as bigger deal as any equipment
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so will it be scotlands job to intercept Russian bears?
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so will it be scotlands job to intercept Russian bears?
They seem to be getting in plenty of practice tackling bears...[ATTACH=CONFIG]223392[/ATTACH]
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Bear Wrestling.jpg 15.47 KB
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One thing that seems a bit off to me is that as Scotland is entitled to about 10% of UK military assets, is this a fair level or equipment?
This is the crux of the whole independence argument, and something Salmond is refusing to address. Scotland makes up around 8% of the population of the UK, so does that mean they would inherit 8% of the assets, 8% of the North Sea oil, 8% of the debt? The more Salmond wants, the greater share of the UK debt he's going to have to inherit. IMO, Scotland would be MUCH better served (in the case of independence) of doing everything it can to loose it's burden of the debt, which includes minimal armed forces, and loosing much of the North Sea Oil. Once they loose the debt, and get an idea of how much GDP they will be creating, then they can start looking at defence 'luxuries'.

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so will it be scotlands job to intercept Russian bears?
I think that if the Scots go for independents the RAF will move the Typhoons into RAF Leeming and still operate a Northern QRA but I also think it would be a good move to have a flight of 6 RAF typhoons on detachment in Scotland to help bolster their early airforce I think another good question is where would the UK sub fleet operate from

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This is the crux of the whole independence argument, and something Salmond is refusing to address. Scotland makes up around 8% of the population of the UK, so does that mean they would inherit 8% of the assets, 8% of the North Sea oil, 8% of the debt? The more Salmond wants, the greater share of the UK debt he's going to have to inherit.
Go and actually read the white paper that has bee published, it actually is all laid out, whether you think the sums add up is up to you but it's there in black and white. For every item that is bought and paid for by the tax payer, 8% (the number of Scottish tax payers) belongs to Scotland, Scotland doesn't want or need 8% of everything that's why there would be negotiations. The Oil and Gas lies predominantly within Scottish Waters as agreed by international convention, and this would be Scotland's entitlement not just 8%. There has been suggestions that as part of the so called Pound zone Scotland might actually take on more than 8% of the UK debit
I think that if the Scots go for independents the RAF will move the Typhoons into RAF Leeming and still operate a Northern QRA but I also think it would be a good move to have a flight of 6 RAF typhoons on detachment in Scotland to help bolster their early airforce
From the original post, Scotland would stand up a 12 aircraft QRA squadron by March of 2015, but my own view would be a more gradual change over with as mentioned Scottish and RAF Jets working together, certainly over the first few years, and then as a purely Scottish Northern QRA embedded in the already established NATO structure of handing off "Bears" as they pass by each countries Air Defence Zone.
I think another good question is where would the UK sub fleet operate from
The Current UK government are in that much denial about a YES vote winning (rightly or wrongly) that they seem to be making no early provision. The SNP want the Subs out by 2019 - the end of the first parliamentary term of an Independent Scotland. That really isn't much time to quell any NIMBY's that will undoubtedly spring up, public enquiries etc before building of Sub pens could even begin, never mind Nuclear war head storage areas.

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And we all know that any white paper English or Scottish is Lie's dam lie's and statistics and only written to push the thinking of those writing it and the one thing we as tax payers can be sure of on both sides is this will cost us a lot of money
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The Current UK government are in that much denial about a YES vote winning (rightly or wrongly) that they seem to be making no early provision. The SNP want the Subs out by 2019 - the end of the first parliamentary term of an Independent Scotland. That really isn't much time to quell any NIMBY's that will undoubtedly spring up, public enquiries etc before building of Sub pens could even begin, never mind Nuclear war head storage areas.
This actually brings up an interesting question - what happens regarding Faslane? It's a massive facility with billions of pounds worth on infrastructure, but since it's in Scotland, it would surely have to count towards the 8-10% of assets that Scotland is entitled to? You can't have it both ways, denying it to the rest of the UK and not counting it, even if Scotland doesn't want to make use of it. One thing that does concern me on behalf of Scotland is the picture that the Yes campaign present, where all potential problems seem to be ignored on the basis that it'll all turn out alright in the end, and the things that are contingent on other people agreeing to them (eg. Sterling zone, EU membership automatically) it seems to be assumed that everyone will agree to things on Scotland's terms. But that's a discussion for another thread.
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it seems to be assumed that everyone will agree to things on Scotland's terms. But that's a discussion for another thread.
A highly unlikely scenario! Quite so......
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One thing that does concern me on behalf of Scotland is the picture that the Yes campaign present, where all potential problems seem to be ignored on the basis that it'll all turn out alright in the end, ....
Salmond is on record (& I heard him say it) that the yes campaign will win because people will vote for a positive message. Unfortunately, the interviewer didn't challenge him very strongly on that. I'd have asked him if he meant that he thought the electorate was stupid enough to vote for nice-sounding lies instead of hard truths. I think that is his strategy.