By: Roovialk
- 8th December 2013 at 00:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The word that comes to mind in the RQ-180 working with manned systems is Synergy
As in the interaction of multiple elements in a system to produce an effect different from or greater than the sum of their individual effects. The term synergy comes from the Greek word synergia συνέργια from synergos, συνεργός, meaning "working together".
By: Mercurius
- 8th December 2013 at 13:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here is the opinion piece by Bill Sweetman:
Thanks for posting that link, Glendora. Stealth per se is not one of technologies that I am currently required to monitor, so I had not seen the article.
Guys, "Speed is the new stealth" does not refer as speed being a substitute for stealth. The 60's have shown that this can't be true (in a sustainable manner).
It means simply that SPEED is the new way of ACHIEVING stealth. After decades of heavy emphasis on shaping, material and EM, speed is the new component of stealth.
It is more a case of stealth becoming a new component of the high-speed approach.
A combination of hypersonic speed and stealth will not be easy to achieve. The weapon’s thermal signature will be huge, allowing it to be detected and tracked by a high-altitude platform equipped with a long-range IR sensor. Although there are ways of deriving range data from a single IR sensor (and we might be getting into classified areas here), such a platform is unlikely to be able to generate the accurate track data needed to allow the planning of an interception. Triangulation from two or more sensor-equipped platforms would provide track data, but its accuracy would be defined by the accuracy with which the location and length of the baseline(s) between these platforms could be measured.
Hypersonic speed on its own would be an effective way of penetrating denied airspace, but it would be worth using low-observable technology to prevent the enemy air defences form generating a radar-derived target track, and to make life hard for any radar-homing missile fired against the intruder.
And why Mach 6(and not 5, 10 or 15?)
Because at around Mach 10, a hypersonic vehicle begins the generate an ionised trail that forms a conspicuous radar target.
Signature reduction is limited in what can be possibly achieved, while ground based detectors are way less limited when it comes to power output, processing power or sensor fusion. So at some point a reduced signature alone won´t be enough to penetrate the most modern defence networks.
The low-observable community does not seem to share your views. The USAF’s planned next-generation cruise missile will be a stealthy design, and it is intended to penetrate the most challenging area denial environments anticipated for the 2020s and 2030s.
Supercruising stealth, improves survivability while difficulties reaction, although not as impressive as the hypersonic scramjet every fanboy wishes.
The derogatory epithet adds nothing to your message. Although in my experience, use of the f**b*y word in a message (or putting words or even sentences or paragraphs into ‘all-caps’) are often a good indication that a poster’s remarks have little or no informational content.
It looks like a very big target hopefully it won't flop and give bad press like its cousin that went down in Iran.
Did the RQ-170 incident really produce much ‘bad press’? A bit of Iranian propaganda and some excitement and speculation on fora such as this one were the main effects. It had nothing like the publicity that losing a manned aircraft and a pilot would have caused.
UAVs are expendable assets. The occasional loss over a time period is fair exchange for accomplishing the overall mission over that time period.
By: LowObservable
- 8th December 2013 at 14:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glendora - I did some measurements on Google Earth and that particular shelter is about 70 feet across... which makes the UAV 60-some feet tip to tip, which suggests an X-47B.
Stealth and speed/altitude are both elements of survivability. You can look at the Blackbird, ISINGLASS, the RQ-180, the F-22 and the T-50 and they all represent different trades, at different cost levels.
By: Glendora
- 8th December 2013 at 15:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glendora - I did some measurements on Google Earth and that particular shelter is about 70 feet across... which makes the UAV 60-some feet tip to tip, which suggests an X-47B.
At the moment I have no reason to question your measurements, but on the other hand, also I have no reason to question aviationintel statement that the soft shelter measures 80 feet. And currently I don’t have the time to verify which measurement is more accurate :(. Maybe, if you have some time on your hand, you can get in touch with Tyler to figure out what measurement is correct. Also note that some comments on that blog post shared your same view about an X-47 mock-up still at Palmdale (other users disagreed with such claims). Please note that I have nothing to do with aviationintel, I just read that blog from time to time.
I hope that both used as measurment the below image and the one spotted by the a/c flying the zone:
That said, and conceeded that your post is a constructive try to spot some further light on this rather mysterious and intersting "supposed" A/C, I think that "the thing" in the picture, for what I can see, looks rather different, from an X-47B;
quite a wide wingspan with a rather undersized fuselage section for an X-47. This configuration makes me think of a high endurance ISR/reconaissance platform. So the thing depicted in that blurred picture could eventually be what now has been dubbed RQ-180.
Hopefully some more news and data will be released/leaked in the next months, so our speculations could have more ground.
Stealth and speed/altitude are both elements of survivability. You can look at the Blackbird, ISINGLASS, the RQ-180, the F-22 and the T-50 and they all represent different trades, at different cost levels.
Yes, I agree. The perfect formula could be found from the right balancing of these elements. It seems that LM is highlighting the need for speed for this project with its SR-72 recently leaked concept, while NG has more confidence in low signature, with its supposed RQ-180 concept (leakead right a month after the SR-72, while the contigous LRS-B contest is on its way).
Maybe both concepts are being developed by LM and NG or maybe all this is a useless waste of bytes on the forums and blogs for aviation enthusiasts. We'll see in the next months.
For the moment, AW succeeded to put the SR-72 on its paper edition cover of November and the RQ-180 on the December issue. I guess they are for sure the ones having the fastest Return On Investments :).
Posts: 3,156
By: hopsalot - 7th December 2013 at 21:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Still trying to milk that picture huh?
Posts: 343
By: Roovialk - 8th December 2013 at 00:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The word that comes to mind in the RQ-180 working with manned systems is Synergy
As in the interaction of multiple elements in a system to produce an effect different from or greater than the sum of their individual effects. The term synergy comes from the Greek word synergia συνέργια from synergos, συνεργός, meaning "working together".
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 8th December 2013 at 00:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Synergy rules of thumb:
1+1=3
1-1=-1
Posts: 1,348
By: Mercurius - 8th December 2013 at 13:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for posting that link, Glendora. Stealth per se is not one of technologies that I am currently required to monitor, so I had not seen the article.
It is more a case of stealth becoming a new component of the high-speed approach.
A combination of hypersonic speed and stealth will not be easy to achieve. The weapon’s thermal signature will be huge, allowing it to be detected and tracked by a high-altitude platform equipped with a long-range IR sensor. Although there are ways of deriving range data from a single IR sensor (and we might be getting into classified areas here), such a platform is unlikely to be able to generate the accurate track data needed to allow the planning of an interception. Triangulation from two or more sensor-equipped platforms would provide track data, but its accuracy would be defined by the accuracy with which the location and length of the baseline(s) between these platforms could be measured.
Hypersonic speed on its own would be an effective way of penetrating denied airspace, but it would be worth using low-observable technology to prevent the enemy air defences form generating a radar-derived target track, and to make life hard for any radar-homing missile fired against the intruder.
Because at around Mach 10, a hypersonic vehicle begins the generate an ionised trail that forms a conspicuous radar target.
The low-observable community does not seem to share your views. The USAF’s planned next-generation cruise missile will be a stealthy design, and it is intended to penetrate the most challenging area denial environments anticipated for the 2020s and 2030s.
The derogatory epithet adds nothing to your message. Although in my experience, use of the f**b*y word in a message (or putting words or even sentences or paragraphs into ‘all-caps’) are often a good indication that a poster’s remarks have little or no informational content.
Did the RQ-170 incident really produce much ‘bad press’? A bit of Iranian propaganda and some excitement and speculation on fora such as this one were the main effects. It had nothing like the publicity that losing a manned aircraft and a pilot would have caused.
UAVs are expendable assets. The occasional loss over a time period is fair exchange for accomplishing the overall mission over that time period.
Posts: 959
By: LowObservable - 8th December 2013 at 14:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glendora - I did some measurements on Google Earth and that particular shelter is about 70 feet across... which makes the UAV 60-some feet tip to tip, which suggests an X-47B.
Stealth and speed/altitude are both elements of survivability. You can look at the Blackbird, ISINGLASS, the RQ-180, the F-22 and the T-50 and they all represent different trades, at different cost levels.
Posts: 240
By: Glendora - 8th December 2013 at 15:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
At the moment I have no reason to question your measurements, but on the other hand, also I have no reason to question aviationintel statement that the soft shelter measures 80 feet. And currently I don’t have the time to verify which measurement is more accurate :(. Maybe, if you have some time on your hand, you can get in touch with Tyler to figure out what measurement is correct. Also note that some comments on that blog post shared your same view about an X-47 mock-up still at Palmdale (other users disagreed with such claims). Please note that I have nothing to do with aviationintel, I just read that blog from time to time.
I hope that both used as measurment the below image and the one spotted by the a/c flying the zone:
That said, and conceeded that your post is a constructive try to spot some further light on this rather mysterious and intersting "supposed" A/C, I think that "the thing" in the picture, for what I can see, looks rather different, from an X-47B;
quite a wide wingspan with a rather undersized fuselage section for an X-47. This configuration makes me think of a high endurance ISR/reconaissance platform. So the thing depicted in that blurred picture could eventually be what now has been dubbed RQ-180.
Hopefully some more news and data will be released/leaked in the next months, so our speculations could have more ground.
Yes, I agree. The perfect formula could be found from the right balancing of these elements. It seems that LM is highlighting the need for speed for this project with its SR-72 recently leaked concept, while NG has more confidence in low signature, with its supposed RQ-180 concept (leakead right a month after the SR-72, while the contigous LRS-B contest is on its way).
Maybe both concepts are being developed by LM and NG or maybe all this is a useless waste of bytes on the forums and blogs for aviation enthusiasts. We'll see in the next months.
For the moment, AW succeeded to put the SR-72 on its paper edition cover of November and the RQ-180 on the December issue. I guess they are for sure the ones having the fastest Return On Investments :).