Red Arrows Ejection death

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Member for

11 years 4 months

Posts: 976

A seat can be maintained and operated correctly this dose not mean it will operate correctly. As an engineer I have tested parts on the bench that have tested OK but once fitted to the air-frame have proven to have a fault the MK-10 has a number of cartridges and triggers that operate in sequence all you need is a dud cartridge which you can't test you can only fit and hope it fires when needed

Member for

10 years 2 months

Posts: 76

I think you mid read his post. He said if he ejects and comes down IN his seat. My understanding is a seat separates from the pilot. In this case did the seat not separate? If so then there was something not necessarily right with the seat which I think OPIT was getting at. xxxxxxxxxxxx

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 407

I would like to read the results of the inquiry when they are released .....

So would I but referring back to my post #7 where is it coming from?

Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 893

For sure, there're some risks of injury even with zero-zero ejection seats. Nobody ever disputed that fact. I disputed the fact that a crew could die due to the seat landing on him, because that just can't happen. But I digress.
What you fail to understand is that a zero-zero ejection seat is not supposed to keep the aircrew strapped on until it hits the ground. That's a malfunction, not a risk.

Member for

18 years 3 months

Posts: 5,267

I think you mid read his post. He said if he ejects and comes down IN his seat. My understanding is a seat separates from the pilot. In this case did the seat not separate? If so then there was something not necessarily right with the seat which I think OPIT was getting at. I do also think it's bad form to call him a liar when you have no proof either way.

Which is exactly my problem, I am fed up with people coming on this forum and stating they have expertise in x y or z with no evidence to back it up. I don't agree with what he said about zero zero ejection seats, there is no evidence to say he has the expertise he says he has and certainly no more then my assertion that I am the king of Belgium.

A bit harsh maybe but that is my position.

His patronising and rude reply here:

No I don't get most of your point because parts of it are just wrong. When an aircrew eject within the ejection domain then come back on Earth strapped on his Martin Baker ejection seat, then there must be something wrong with that seat. No more, no less.

is what spurred my patronising and rude reply.

Member for

18 years 3 months

Posts: 5,267

For sure, there're some risks of injury even with zero-zero ejection seats. Nobody ever disputed that fact. I disputed the fact that a crew could die due to the seat landing on him, because that just can't happen. But I digress.
What you fail to understand is that a zero-zero ejection seat is not supposed to keep the aircrew strapped on until it hits the ground. That's a malfunction, not a risk.

Then we shall have to agree to disagree. The seat landing on pilot is a risk in such situations. Stating on an anonymous forum that you have certain expertise in said field to close down the discussion with no evidence is what has irritated me.

Anyway I need to get back to ruling Belgium.

Member for

13 years 4 months

Posts: 262

Never heard of a seat just firing on its own. That would be the rarest of freak accidents. I have heard of seats being inadvertently fired, as in some action by someone in the jet caused the seat to fire, un-intentionally. I don't know the specifics of this seat, but it certainly either had a safety pin, an arm/safe handle, or both. If it only has a pin (as in some current western seats installed in the T-6), then if that pin is removed the seat could theoretically be fired by accidentally pulling or getting entangled on the handle. If it requires both a removed pin and also arming the seat manually (as in the seat I fly on every day), then it would take a little more idiocy to accidentally fire........yet still possible if the seat were, unbeknownst to the sitter, actually armed with the pin removed.

As an aside, 0/0 seats aren't 0/0 all the time. Surface winds can render them not 0/0, and aircraft attitude can also render them not 0/0. If you are inverted at 100', the outcome is going to be predictably not survivable. And as a third possibility, malfunction of the seat or parachute themselves, while not common, are still possible.

Member for

18 years 10 months

Posts: 3,614

Never heard of a seat just firing on its own. That would be the rarest of freak accidents. I have heard of seats being inadvertently fired, as in some action by someone in the jet caused the seat to fire, un-intentionally. I don't know the specifics of this seat, but it certainly either had a safety pin, an arm/safe handle, or both. If it only has a pin (as in some current western seats installed in the T-6), then if that pin is removed the seat could theoretically be fired by accidentally pulling or getting entangled on the handle. If it requires both a removed pin and also arming the seat manually (as in the seat I fly on every day), then it would take a little more idiocy to accidentally fire........yet still possible if the seat were, unbeknownst to the sitter, actually armed with the pin removed.

As an aside, 0/0 seats aren't 0/0 all the time. Surface winds can render them not 0/0, and aircraft attitude can also render them not 0/0. If you are inverted at 100', the outcome is going to be predictably not survivable. And as a third possibility, malfunction of the seat or parachute themselves, while not common, are still possible.

Here is an account of exactly a "self-firing seat malfunction", with specifics and a technical analysis of what happened:
http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/

Here is a (more civil and professional) discussion on another board - many of the posters are ex-UK military aviation, and a number of those knew each other during their service so there is no chance of Fedaykin's fantasy claim of false credentials:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/469757-reports-red-arrows-flt-lt-cunninghams-death.html

It is absolutely established that the seat did NOT separate as it was designed to do, and the chute did NOT deploy as it was designed to - and that BOTH of those ARE malfunctions, NOT the result of any temporary conditions.

Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 893

Here is an account of exactly a "self-firing seat malfunction", with specifics and a technical analysis of what happened:
http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/

I'd say that was not a self-firing malfunction per se, as this usually refers to a seat ejecting out of the aircraft on its own. In Gallagher's case, the second part of the ejection sequence was initiated when the seat moved up (as this is the case in a real ejection) due to the broken latch, but strictly speaking there was no ejection at all.

Member for

14 years

Posts: 4,996

Here is a (more civil and professional) discussion on another board - many of the posters are ex-UK military aviation, and a number of those knew each other during their service so there is no chance of xxxxxclaim of false credentials:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/469757-reports-red-arrows-flt-lt-cunninghams-death.html
.

As you say, some very well informed comment.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 5,396

I do not know how the sequence is engineered for the seat in question, but belt cutters (for seat separation) always fire AFTER the drogue gun fires.

Member for

18 years 3 months

Posts: 5,267

OFF TOPIC!

Lets put a lid on this what has been said has been said, considering somebody has died in unfortunate circumstances I see no need to drag things on.

Member for

13 years 11 months

Posts: 252

Ok, I'll stick my oar in

The Hawk Mk10B seat has a single Pip pin safety in the seat pan firing handle

A Spanish Typhoon Mk16 seat initiated all by itself a few years back, this was a assembly failure of the main gun firing unit and is unique to the Mk16.

I assume its the MAA who will carry out the investigation along with the RAF Police and Civ Pol.

On a Mk10 when the drogue gun fires, the drogue withdrawl line pulls out the 22" drogue chute followed by the 5' drogue chute (This remains attached to the seat until separation). If you eject above 10'000 feet, you will stay in the seat until it decends to 10'000 (Oxygen). Then the barostatic time release unit will release the occupant by the unlocking the upper and lower harness locks and the Neg G and V. At the same time the BTRU will allow the scissor shackle or new gas shackle to release the drogue chute which pulls out the main chute. The sudden jolt of the main chute causes the sticker straps to snap out giving you clean separation from the seat. The seat falls away to the ground while you hang on the chute.

The BTRU also has a 'G' controller and the idea is that above 7'500 feet, the 'G' Controller can prevent you from leaving the seat until it's safe to do so. Below 7'500 feet, there isn't time so the 'G' controller is ignored and the seat will allow you to release despite the higher risk, after all it's better to have some chance than no chance.

Every way I look at this accident, there appears to be 2 separate problems, the seat initiated and the seat failed to separate. A possibility of initiating the seat could come from motoring the seat pan down onto an obstruction under the seat, this in turn in a million to one chance, push the sear out of the seat pan firing handle firing unit and initiating an ejection. This would result in the normal ejection sequence.

If the BTTDFU or BTDFU (Breech type time delayed firing unit) initiated, then the main gun would extend and the trip rods for the Drogue gun and BTRU would trip and the drogue and BTRU would work, as would the static line for the Remote Rocket Initiator. What wouldn't work in this scenario is the Harness Power Retraction Unit (HPRU) which means the occupant would be free to be thrown around. Not good!

The second failure is odd, I'm assuming the drogue gun has fired, this would allow the drogue to deploy .5 sec after being tripped. 1 second later the BTRU (1.5 secs after being tripped) would fire and as it was a Zero Zero ejection, the BTRU would release the harness locks AND release the scissor shackle allowing the drogue chute to pull the main chute out of the headbox and pilot parachutes to the ground.

If on contact with the ground the Pilot was fully harnessed to the seat but the main chute had deployed, this would be a failure of the locks to release. If the main scissor shackle failed to unlock leaving the drogue only, and the harness locks released, the Pilot would still be attached to the seat by the scissor shackle (via the drogue line) and likely the sticker straps. If the BTRU or BTRU cartridge failed, the Pilot would be attached to the seat by both the harness locks and the scissor shackle (drogue line).

A post on the PPRUNE site mentioned that Martin Baker had stated that prelim investigation revealed no tech faults so I don't know if that includes cartridges or not. I'm going to hazard a guess, and this is based on no evidence, that for some reason the drogue chute could not extract the main parachute or that the scissor shackle did not release for other reasons. I'm basing this on Martin Bakers alleged statement stating there were no technical faults.

Post 9 !!

Member for

13 years 4 months

Posts: 262

Here is an account of exactly a "self-firing seat malfunction", with specifics and a technical analysis of what happened:
http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/

Here is a (more civil and professional) discussion on another board - many of the posters are ex-UK military aviation, and a number of those knew each other during their service so there is no chance of Fedaykin's fantasy claim of false credentials:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/469757-reports-red-arrows-flt-lt-cunninghams-death.html

It is absolutely established that the seat did NOT separate as it was designed to do, and the chute did NOT deploy as it was designed to - and that BOTH of those ARE malfunctions, NOT the result of any temporary conditions.

Yep, didn't say that seats don't malfunction once fired.......as they certainly do on occasion. What I meant was that I have never heard of a seat just firing on its own, without an accidental handle pull or something else. Maybe there have been rare instances of this, but I would bet money that this wasn't the case in the incident being discussed here with a modern seat with all the interlocks and safety mechanisms of this day and age.

Member for

13 years 11 months

Posts: 252

I've only ever known one seat fire on it's own, a Spanish Mk16 seat in a Typhoon Trainer. The Main gun firing unit wasn't cocked correctly and over time the latches moved and off went the seat. Luckily no one was near the aircraft so no injuries. The fault was traced back to a contracted assembler (Not MB). Out of all the British seats checked, 3 initially failed but were found to be fine as they were at their maximum tolerances. I was tasked with checking one of those seats, you had to lie on across the seat and look under the seat with video 2000 and take some photos at set angles. I was a little worried when I examined the photos I'd just taken, Especially when I was asked to do it again and get some clearer photos.

Would anyone know which chute failed to deploy? Drogues or main? If it was the drogue, then both the Drogue gun and BTRU have failed.

What would be the outcome if the drogue fired but the scissor shackle failed to open because the u shackle retaining bolt was torqued up too tight? Post 9!!

Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 893

What would be the outcome if the drogue fired but the scissor shackle failed to open because the u shackle retaining bolt was torqued up too tight? Post 9!!

A catastrophic failure. I don't know whether that was related, but SEMMB issued a service bulletin in late 2011 to warn about this. Maintainers are now asked to verify the free rotation of the U shackle once installed.

Member for

17 years 5 months

Posts: 8,980


Originally Posted by TonyT
Read
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...m-inquest.html
Which I linked to and recommended back in post #32.
Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together in the middle of the pub, when Serbia bumps into Austria, and spills Austria's pint.

Err no you didn't, you linked the one regarding his death, this is a new thread with details of the inquest and what actually happened from those involved, perhaps you should actually read the link first before dismissing it as something you had previously posted, you might then actually learn something.