United Europe Air Force

Member for

9 years 10 months

Posts: 2,114

What the title says. Been done before in a different format, but i wanna do it again. I'll try to keep the political-social part very short. Basically right now we're mere vassal of US interests through traitorous and corrupt politicians, and we are increasingly drifting towards a hideously orwellian, US controlled future. Our only hope is to stand TOGETHER and free ourselves from these shackles, becoming truly independent and controlling our own destiny, and able to built a society based on true european values. Backward currents like ultranationalism and xenophobia should have no place and no say in creating a true, United Europe (no, that does mean eliminating countries and identities, but just joining TOGETHER and working TOGETHER to build a better home for all of us). Onto aircraft now. Right now, even despite the continuous efforts from inside and outside to undermine the european defence industry (see F-35, and other US sourced aquisitions), we still retain formidable capabilities, being able to built almost anything needed for a true, world superpower class air force. While one of the weaknesses of current EUAFs was said to be the numerous types in service throughout, obviously a United Europe Air Force will have to work toward integrating existing types and steadily increasing commonality. Procurement should must be focused on assuring full strategic and political independence, supporting existing local industry and creating local jobs in a realistic and fair manner. We are building right now anything from primary trainers to the highest technology combat aircraft. We have primary trainers like Grob series, advanced trainers like Pilatus series, jet trainers like Hawk and M-346, transports of all classes, tanker and potential special mission aircraft like Airbus and Alenia series, helicopters of all types and sized from Agusta Westland and Eurocopter, an emerging UCAV capability especially through french and british expertise and lastly, high technology fighters like Gripen, Rafale and Typhoon. These capabilities would allow us to re-equip and replace old aircraft due now or in the near future, increasing integration and decrease operating costs top and bottom. Our biggest deficiencies now are lack of a heavy 5th gen program, lack of a light 5th gen, and lack of a global LRS-class platform, plus dependency on US AEW designs, PLUS the dependence of UK deterence arsenal on US missiles. I envision that in the initial and transitional period (say 2015-2025), each UEAF country will contribute to the whole with what is realistically (and economically) feasible, one of the biggest changes being the consolidation of primary and advanced training in 3 or 4 regional centres (i know a few countries are doing it jointly already), thus avoiding the duplication of such efforts in almost every country. Just for the "glamorous" fast Looking at some numbers, and based on near future aircraft need replacing , and also in keeping with the trend of steadily decreasing numbers, here's what the UEAF fast jet force might look like juts after 2025: UK- 180 to 200 Typhoon France- 200 Rafale Germany-180-200 Typhoon Italy- 150 Typhoon Spain- 80+ Typhoon Sweden-72 Gripen-NG Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Belgium, Netherland and Denmark- each between 36 and 48 Gripen-C/NG Portugal- 24 Gripen Romania and Bulgaria- 24 Gripen (maybe more as the economic situation will improves) Hungary, Serbia and Croatia, Czech republic, Slovakia, Austria?- 12-14 Gripens each There are a few countries not listed, that right now do not have an airforce anyway and won't need to (they can contribute in other means), plus for 2 there's a difficult situation in regards to their present holdings, i.e. Poland and Greece, they are relaying on US types that are mostly newly built, 150+ and 48 F-16Cs respectively. That would come at odds with an independent EUAF. Any idea how it's best to re-equip them? How about Turkey? The regional advanced training centers i was mentioning i would have them in UK (Hawk T2) Italy, Spain, France and Sweden with M-346. Finally, the UE Navy would be built around the CdG and the two QE-class carriers, each flying Rafale-M carrier fighters, totaling 100 initially. The loss of the UK's Harrier fleet was a huge blow (victim of politics- obviously the Washington and local puppet politicians wanted to remove any obstacles in front of the F-35 "deal"), but perhaps the 3 VTOL carriers (italian and spanish) can still fly Harriers (upgrades with meteors and ASRAAM or Iris-T and european AESA radars) until replaced or rather their roles are changed. I think at least a minimum 3 more 65,000-70,000t or bigger fleet carriers will be necessary by 2030 that will succeed in construction the QEs, maybe nuclear powered. Alternatively, an improved sister ship for CdG can be built in France well before 2025, then alternatively one each CVN can be built in UK (after Prince of Wales) and France afterward. A total of 6 fleet carriers by 2030 will be a formidable naval force, assuring superiority in the Atlantic (the USN will have to face not only us, but also China and Russia's naval forces, by that time also formidable- likely 4 or 5 chinese carriers and 2-4 russian). As for the future, the immediate priorities would be the development of a BAe Replica technology-based F-22, PAK-FA, J-20-class heavy multirole twin engine 5+ gen. stealth fighter, and a light single engine type like the FS2020. Both should have the same engine, and one or perhaps both should have a carrier variant, they will be aimed in the long run at replacing Rafale/Typhoon and Gripen respectively. Also the development and the integration of UCAV vehicles into UEAF and Navy should be pursued aggressively. Lastly, a future LRS-B can become reality by 2035, thus finally giving Europe it's deterrence triad. Divided we fall. Together we stand. Long live United Europe.
Original post
Profile picture for user FBW

Member for

7 years 9 months

Posts: 3,104

And well needed too, as clearly it has been the U.S. that has been a threat to Europe for the last hundred years, going so far as to stage a hostile invasion in Normandy, France on June 6, 1944. A well written post worthy of the best education that can be gleaned from internet conspiracy university. Remember, DONT read books- the internet is always right!

Member for

9 years 10 months

Posts: 2,114

PS: Please ignore the sock-puppets everyone who reads or wishes to post insightful comments here. Thanks.
Profile picture for user Vnomad

Member for

8 years 4 months

Posts: 2,661

I'll try to keep the political-social part very short. Basically right now we're mere vassal of US interests through traitorous and corrupt politicians, and we are increasingly drifting towards a hideously orwellian, US controlled future. Our only hope is to stand TOGETHER and free ourselves from these shackles, becoming truly independent and controlling our own destiny, and able to built a society based on true european values. Backward currents like ultranationalism and xenophobia should have no place and no say in creating a true, United Europe (no, that does mean eliminating countries and identities, but just joining TOGETHER and working TOGETHER to build a better home for all of us).
Assumption being that most of Europe is on the same page as far as foreign policy is concerned, and differs greatly from the US on the matter. Hardly true. And for evidence you need look no further than the Libyan campaign where Germany (a NATO member and EU lynch-pin) stayed out while (non-NATO) Sweden and (non-EU) Norway were both active participants.
Our biggest deficiencies now are lack of a heavy 5th gen program, lack of a light 5th gen, and lack of a global LRS-class platform, plus dependency on US AEW designs, PLUS the dependence of UK deterence arsenal on US missiles. I envision that in the initial and transitional period (say 2015-2025), each UEAF country will contribute to the whole with what is realistically (and economically) feasible, one of the biggest changes being the consolidation of primary and advanced training in 3 or 4 regional centres (i know a few countries are doing it jointly already), thus avoiding the duplication of such efforts in almost every country.
Europe doesn't face any military threats anymore. Not since the Russians started buying French weapons and developing others with the Italians. If you could somehow get the Russia to join the European Union, you may solve all remaining defence challenges and achieve true European togetherness.
A total of 6 fleet carriers by 2030 will be a formidable naval force, assuring superiority in the Atlantic (the USN will have to face not only us, but also China and Russia's naval forces, by that time also formidable- likely 4 or 5 chinese carriers and 2-4 russian).
Superiority over the USN in the Atlantic? Relations set to be that bad, huh?
Divided we fall. Together we stand. Long live United Europe.
Not counting the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, the last time Europe was invaded was in the 13th century (by the Mongols). I doubt Europeans need fear 'falling' to any outsider today.
Profile picture for user EELightning

Member for

10 years 9 months

Posts: 2,631

United Europe(an) Air Force... Europe can't even decide on the more simple scenarios let alone a United Air Force.
Profile picture for user Rii

Member for

8 years 11 months

Posts: 3,381

The most effective route to a United Europe would be the rise of another Napoleon in France.
Profile picture for user Vnomad

Member for

8 years 4 months

Posts: 2,661

The most effective route to a United Europe would be the rise of another Napoleon in France.
To unite Europe under him or against him? :D

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 4,165

To unite Europe under him or against him? :D
Well... He did both...
Profile picture for user Rii

Member for

8 years 11 months

Posts: 3,381

Either would probably work. I do think the weak and ineffectual governance experienced throughout the western world in the 21st century will generate its natural corrective in the end, and France is its obvious birthplace.

Member for

7 years 8 months

Posts: 4,165

i dont think so, we were vaccinated by first world war...

Member for

7 years 10 months

Posts: 5,831

Sadly, vaccines effects are vanishing with the time... Regarding the topic, sry Mack8 but after reading the first three lines, enough was enough.
Profile picture for user Rii

Member for

8 years 11 months

Posts: 3,381

i dont think so, we were vaccinated by first world war...
Fading memories of the wars is one of the major reasons the European project has stalled in recent times.
Profile picture for user 19kilo10

Member for

9 years

Posts: 770

I thought Germany was going to take over Europe with the banks?
Profile picture for user Vnomad

Member for

8 years 4 months

Posts: 2,661

Well... He did both...
It appears the time has come for a son of France to gloriously rise, take up his sword (or rifle.. or Rafale) and unite Europe under him.. or against him. So... how busy are you? ;)
Profile picture for user giganick1

Member for

10 years 2 months

Posts: 387

Isn't the point of a United AF to streamline? You would have two or at most fighter types plus naval type(s)
Profile picture for user Nils

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 509

i dont think a United European Defence Force will ever work. sure it can be set up, but there would be to much dissidence to make it work. this is doomed to fail from certain standpoints. first, from the nation's budgetary stand point, it could save a bundle, but at the same time, they would give up a piece of they're souverinity. second, today they hardy come to an agreement of witch nation will participate in witch operation, the ones who do not (of cannot) participate are being forced to, witch could lead to political turmoil in that nation. Third, operational mentality, each nation has its own way of doing things, within a UEuDF they would have to rewrite the rules to operate within a common doctrine. fourth, Social unrest, if the European Nations would unite its forces, the chances are they will also severly reduce theyre manpower, as part of cost saving measures, as the joint defence budget will not be that high (likely less then then all theseperate budgets combined). at least a 100.000 jobs could be in jeopardy. also, there wont be a need for that many equipment, so we could see hundereds of aircraft end up on the secondhand market. also, i think it would be obvious that the UK will not want to participate within the unified defence force, as the nation within europe has always been a loner. they are a part of europe, politicaly and geographicly, but they hardly join in any EU initiatives (exaple, traffic laws, the Euro, open borders,.....) besides, they wont participate due to the historic/traditionalist vallue of the UK armed forces (RAF, Royal Navy, Army,....) not to shoot down Great Britania, but this to me seems the most likely scenario.

Member for

6 years 9 months

Posts: 1,059

United Europe? Heck, Belgium cannot even unite.
Profile picture for user Sterne82

Member for

14 years 1 month

Posts: 47

United Europe? Heck, Belgium cannot even unite.
So do Spain, the United Kingdom, Italy, etc... Try harder next time.

Member for

9 years 10 months

Posts: 2,114

Assumption being that most of Europe is on the same page as far as foreign policy is concerned, and differs greatly from the US on the matter. Hardly true. And for evidence you need look no further than the Libyan campaign where Germany (a NATO member and EU lynch-pin) stayed out while (non-NATO) Sweden and (non-EU) Norway were both active participants.
Except that the decision to attack Lybia was not taken by truly independent european states! Just like the UK refusal to participate in an attack against Syria was due to heavy PUBLIC pressure, so was the german decision. In fact in all these wars we have been dragged on, against all european principles, you find me ONE instance in which the majority of european citizens were supporting it. Simple, there is none. So how one say that the european countries are able to take independent decisions when decisions to go to war in support of US interests are taken INSPITE of the peoples will? Reason is again simple because like in any other similar situation (i.e. former Warpac) our governments are puppets in US service. No "conspiracy theory" or anything (like some try to imply) just the simple truth.
Europe doesn't face any military threats anymore. Not since the Russians started buying French weapons and developing others with the Italians. If you could somehow get the Russia to join the European Union, you may solve all remaining defence challenges and achieve true European togetherness.
True independence mean being able to defend yourself and deter any potential aggression or threats, and also being able to support your interests if need be. Given the current numbers (about 2000 combat aircraft) in the EU a drop to under 1500 is perfectly sustainable and sufficient to deter ANY potential opponent. Of course, in the long run, European togetherness should be the objective, in fact Earth togetherness should be THE objective.
Superiority over the USN in the Atlantic? Relations set to be that bad, huh?
The interests of an independent Europe (dictated by it's citizens through vote) would certainly not be in line with US corporate and hegemonic interests and in fact will be opposite many times. I expect the yanks to be thoroughly unhappy about that, hence the need for strategic parity.
Not counting the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, the last time Europe was invaded was in the 13th century (by the Mongols). I doubt Europeans need fear 'falling' to any outsider today.
Again, it's putting in balance being mere puppets increasingly subjected to and oppressed by US interests (how can you call this then, we don't want wars, we don't want our lives spied, we don't want being mere milk cows for corporations, yet all this it's exactly what is happening!) versus being TRULLY independent nations. I suppose with this mentality, if say the yanks are going **** up tomorrow , those of you who are so aghasted by the idea of us europeans, north, south, east or west working together and collaborating together and striving to a better future together are also OK with say the chinese taking over as the "Big Brother" or maybe the russians? Really ?!
United Europe(an) Air Force... Europe can't even decide on the more simple scenarios let alone a United Air Force.
Of course not. Divide and conquer remember? How can we decide anything together when our governments are NOT independent and are NOT working for their own citizens' interests, but for a foreign powers'?
first, from the nation's budgetary stand point, it could save a bundle, but at the same time, they would give up a piece of they're souverinity.
So i guess it's preferable to give a piece of sovereignity (if not all of it- as it stands now) to a foreign power 5000 miles away, than do so in the interests of a better, stronger EUROPE? Budget wise, it's not only about savings but also about creating huge numbers of jobs and supporting the local high tech industry. Think of all the current and planned contracts of items from US, how many tens, even hundreds of billions they worth, money going OUT, money made by the hard work of the european taxpayer. Think how many JOBS sourcing those very same items here can support! Plus, an independent Europe will be free to pursue it's own international relations, for instance we can export tens of billions worth of defence items to China and other countries that are "verboten" now under US ruling. In fact, in my opinion the flourishing of the european defence industry, and overall economy will be astonishing if we'll ever manage to create an independent Europe.
Third, operational mentality, each nation has its own way of doing things, within a UEuDF they would have to rewrite the rules to operate within a common doctrine.
Then how are they doing it in this current "NATO" then? I refuse to believe that would be a problem, how, why? You would have a steadily decreasing number of types of assets operating in a streamlined system with little duplication like of the current each-country-on-it's-own system, in many respects sharing common infrastructure and weapons (the AESA radars will have very common components, or should be made to, the missiles are in many respects commons to all 3 Eurocanards, you can have just 2 types of fast jet engine, EJ-200 on Typhoon and Gripen-NG (yes i'd change the F414 for an EJ-230), and M-88 in Rafale). In fact i do recall now, this very commonality in the former Warpac was praised at that time, every aircraft or tanks etc. could operate and be serviced in almost every constituent country.
also, i think it would be obvious that the UK will not want to participate within the unified defence force, as the nation within europe has always been a loner. they are a part of europe, politicaly and geographicly, but they hardly join in any EU initiatives (exaple, traffic laws, the Euro, open borders,.....) besides, they wont participate due to the historic/traditionalist vallue of the UK armed forces (RAF, Royal Navy, Army,....) not to shoot down Great Britania, but this to me seems the most likely scenario.
Yes, i know the local ultra-nationalists are going nuts whenever someone mentions about EU or about a common defence force, let alone what i'm proposing. Again as above these "individuals" are very happy to just being puppets of a foreign power 5000 miles way and paying lip service to them, than working together and striving together with their fellow EUROPEAN neighbours for a better place for all. But then again, since regretably this otherwise absolutely wonderful country and people has been penetrated so deeply by US machinations, who do you think is steering the public opinions against EU, a united Europe and so on? Divide and conquer...
Profile picture for user 19kilo10

Member for

9 years

Posts: 770

Shouldnt this be moved to "General Discussion"? Seems VERY political and not at all aviation oriented.

Member for

6 years 9 months

Posts: 1,059

So do Spain, the United Kingdom, Italy, etc... Try harder next time.
They do what bunky?