United Europe Air Force

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15 years 5 months

Posts: 6,983

It is usually people from other continents that identify Europeans as a specie,
my american friends often refer to " **** Europeans", but i have yet to hear one single person refer to him/her self as "European"

Member for

14 years 4 months

Posts: 2,114

Ta-ta, Troll.

Excuse me?! YOU come here with your ultranationalistic crap and and "i know better" patronizing attitude, not even posting a single word about aviation and I'M the troll? That's a bit rich don't you think? Not to worry though, i've met enough british folks to know that you're not a majority, with all due respect.

Where would Canada fit into all this?

What does Canada have to do with anything discussed here ?!

But, let's just dream a little bit, and say all the Europeans (and increasing numbers of non Europeans within our borders) start to love each other. Then we would have probably only two design houses left in aviation. Dassault and Saab, maybe BAE. Cassidian (or is it now Airbus Defence something) would be as dead as a company can be. While I wouldn't mind them going out of business, German and especially Bavarian politicians would cry bloody murder. You can expect similar consolidation processes for land and naval system suppliers. Do you really think the French will accept the European Army get's it armored vehicles from KMW and BAE Hägglunds while state owned Nexter goes bust ?

What you would have to replace/or create: All European C4I systems, including software and large parts of the hardware (ground radars, comm equipment, space based assets ...) Creating a joint staff-currently WEU has no own command structures. European elements of the NATO staff are supposed to fill that role. I guess you want to dissolve NATO, otherwise you have a problem. The highest ranking European NATO Officer is per definition American.
Then identify and replace all the hardware which threatens OpSec... And the list goes on. Who would be able to pay for all this ? Certainly not the latin countries and east Europeans. Not much left then, eh ?

You see, whatever the political side you're in you have already decided that such a concept will never work. Like i said many times before though, the whole point of being independent is to be able to defend yourself, and to be able to defend yourself you have to be able to build the means to do so, hence the protection of the production facilities and technology know-how. The americans are doing exactly that, they are even forcing their own airforce and military in general to buy stuff they don't want! (not to mention the wars and regional intrigue they maintain that brings their militaro-industrial complex TRILLIONS in revenue). In my "dream", Cassidian/Airbus defence doesn't need to go bankrupt, neither Nexter, why so, i don't get it. I see Airbus/Cassidian are listed as making UAVs among other things, there's a bright future for those no? Of course, just like over the past decades, there should and will be gradual consolidation of existing companies into larger entities spanning several countries across, but the whole point of cooperation and the "everybody wins" concept is to have each participating country's defence industry not being sidelined, but to participate according to competence and expertise to the overall effort, be it aircraft, naval, missile defences or land systems. A clever system of offsets (like say SAAB offers nowadays) and local participation in production can indeed make everyone win. It's not impossible. What it would be nice to hear from more informed and level headed members (not the few trolls we had here so far - 2 more added on my ignore list today) is how to make such a system work. It is NOT impossible.

One little thing about Germany and Typhoon though. Indeed it appears they will get only 140 Typhoons, but also that they will have some Tornados left by 2025 too, about 70 according to some www. info. So in my independent Europe scenario, it's entirely feasible they will replace those Tornados with say 40-60 Typhoons, for a total of 180-200.

Reading the weaknesses of current EU militaries, yes in the short-medium-long term (according to priority) they will need to be fixed, and again it is not impossible. There is a budget of about 200 billion euros so far for the combined EU states, the streamlining, savings (like from NOT spending tens, even HUNDREDS of billion as part of the american wars across the globe) and a certain reduction of numbers plus everyone contributing say 2.5% of GDP, will surely free enough funds to be used for building the capacities we need. I've compiled some numbers regarding special mission, AEW and tanker fleets:

There are in total about 17 AEWs (plus 2 on order), including 3 in Aeronavale, NOT counting the "NATO" AEWs- another 17 E-3s - plus 36 IFR tankers (plus 4 on order) and 23 (plus 3 on order) special mission aircraft of various types (EW, recce, ELINT). Also there are 38 large, proper MPAs and 24 smaller MPAs.

For comparison, Russia can roughly field 13 AEWs, about 29 special mission, and 23 tankers, plus 10 large MPAs. China can field roughly 20 AEWs, about 24 special mission, just 3 MPAs and between 20 and 30 HD-6 tankers.

I didn't even looked at US numbers i know they are much higher, but since we're not going to invade them, how much do we need then? In fact, while there probably should be a certain up adjustment of numbers, concentrating on replacing older airframes and especially those that can be judged compromised first is certainly doable and feasible.

Regarding the C4I, space based, ground hardware, and so on, well let's try to find a rough estimate, for the size of the UEAF and ground/ naval force intended (say overall as strong as China and Russia), how much would it cost to implement, how long it would roughly take? Oh and yes of course NATO would go, no question there.

Member for

19 years

Posts: 1,190

Oh come on! YOU or the one that brought politics into this ridiculous thread and when people fall for the bombs you've thrown you want to just say "if you don't agree with me to go away"! Oh no no no! You started this Surely there some bunker under a chancellery someplace you can hunker down in and fight this to the bitter end!

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 2,631

Excuse me?! YOU come here with your ultranationalistic crap and and "i know better" patronizing attitude, not even posting a single word about aviation and I'M the troll? That's a bit rich don't you think? Not to worry though, i've met enough british folks to know that you're not a majority, with all due respect.
Ah-ha, uh-hum... Yes, yeah... "Ultra Nationalistic Crap", so by that I assume you mean I was posting stuff about, I dunno say, how amazing and wonderful Great Britain is and how the rest of the world isn't etc. etc. etc. Would you like to provide any evidence of me doing so? Or don't you know the meaning of 'Ultra-Nationalism'? Again, as mentioned before, you're being hypocritical after your remarks about the US. Funny you didn't quote that part, isn't it not?

Also, I'm still waiting for you to provide some evidence which suggests I'm a UKIP sympathiser, from a good few months ago.

Besides, with regards to whole topic of a "United European Airforce", do you really think you can discuss military aviation without bringing in politics? In case you didn't notice, if you want to have this United European Air Arm then a political debate is just as important, even more so in many cases. The clues are right in front of you, they're in the name you created, i.e. 'European' and 'United'.

Also, if it makes you happy about discussing military aviation, then here it goes. Your optimistic views about Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen are exactly that, optimistic. Might I add highly unrealistic due to the lack of political willingness. There you go, see how the political side enters the debate...

Member for

13 years 5 months

Posts: 770

Quite interested in what language will be spoken in this "UEAF"?

Member for

11 years 2 months

Posts: 1,059

Quite interested in what language will be spoken in this "UEAF"?
Pig-latin, it is the one language Macky is really good at.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 3,106

Good to know Mupp, well the peoples with "heightened emotions" should stay out then, they are not forced by anyone to read or post here. Some of them didn't even touch the subject of aviation, just plain trolling or going on about their "oh i know it better" and ultra-nationalistic crap. I don't have more time now for a longer reply to some of the stuff posted above (aviation wise), maybe tonight.
Just as there are plenty of topics out there regarding all kinds of hypothetical airforce evolution or what-ifs, this is also is one of them. If it "strikes a chord" with some characters, that doesn't mean because of their "sensitivity" it should be closed. Why? Shutting peoples with different opinions, is this what we do now? For the last time, anyone who doesn't like this theme, just STAY AWAY!

Had you presented the idea as a hypothetical without the Anti-U.S. diatribe, you might have had your wish without the backlash. Instead you displayed your insensitivity to people's nationality, ignorance of the U.S. You would be better viewing the U.S. as a it is a diverse mix of people, culture, and ideas not unlike the EU. I have more in common culturally with Canadians whom I live near, than Texans, who share different political views, ethnic backgrounds, way of life. There are 300+ million people living here, rather than vilify a nation whose politics you don't agree with, try learning a bit before bashing an entire national identity. Mistrust of the U.S. is high in Europe right now, but nothing lasts forever, and the ties: economic, cultural, and political are far stronger and more reciprocal than you grasp, obviously.

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 2,631

May I might add, Mack8 wrote earlier, I quote:

"A total of 6 fleet carriers by 2030 will be a formidable naval force, assuring superiority in the Atlantic (the USN will have to face not only us, but also China and Russia's naval forces, by that time also formidable- likely 4 or 5 chinese carriers and 2-4 russian)."

Remind me, in what way is the USN a threat to Europe again?

You do also realise that the complications this so-called "United European Airforce/Navy" would bring, don't you? In what way, or ways, would it be "truly independent" in a world where conflicts, campaigns - whatever wants to call them - are a regular occurrence? Very simple summary: X country or countries needs an Aircraft Carrier or two to counter a threat, Y country or countries doesn't like the idea of deploying them because they believe the threat isn't serious. And while these Carriers are under a "United/Joint Command" surely, there'll be a lot of headaches involved regarding whom gets to deploy them for what. How'd you solve that situation, Mr. Europe?

You forget, or fail to grasp, that every country isn't at all selfless. Again, enter the political debate, much more important than a military debate. The chaps in very expensive suits have the first and final word. The ones in military uniforms say, yes Sir, right away Sir.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,271

Quite interested in what language will be spoken in this "UEAF"?

Bambini-Code. :D
Seriously, language is the least of UEAFs issues. We will see the second american civil war before the United States of Europe.

Member for

16 years

Posts: 265

Quite interested in what language will be spoken in this "UEAF"?

English, it's the language everyone speaks now.

Member for

11 years 1 month

Posts: 253

American banks own to much of Europe for the above to ever happen. European banks like wise own to much of US for the above to ever happen.

The investment entanglement between Europe and North America is much larger then even the trade entanglement between the two. The economic cost of disentangling the two even at just the defense level would be extremely large. The cost on the European side would be larger then the cost on US side. In the long term Europe would fall farther and farther behind US because of larger US defense spending coupled with the complete removal of European defense industry from US market.

Member for

10 years 6 months

Posts: 207

Today, Europe do the most unimaginable, despicable and sickening things that would sink it to the most awful depths capable of matching that of the US, Russia, China or any other country, both "civilised" and 3rd world. Why don't you go educate yourself on these simple un-reported matters !

What are you on about?Can you educate some of us who might be in the dark?

Member for

14 years 4 months

Posts: 2,114

Ah-ha, uh-hum... Yes, yeah... "Ultra Nationalistic Crap", so by that I assume you mean I was posting stuff about, I dunno say, how amazing and wonderful Great Britain is and how the rest of the world isn't etc. etc. etc. Would you like to provide any evidence of me doing so? Or don't you know the meaning of 'Ultra-Nationalism'? Again, as mentioned before, you're being hypocritical after your remarks about the US. Funny you didn't quote that part, isn't it not?

Your loathful attitude to the rest of Europe and the very concept of a United European Military shows just that! I may be hypocritical (no one is perfect) but i'm not the only one.

Also, i'm still waiting for you to provide some evidence which suggests I'm a UKIP sympathiser, from a good few months ago.

What other conclusion one can draw after your posts here? Some time ago i (probably mistakenly) alluded about being an EDL sympathiser or whatever, which you categorically denied (to put it mildly). But this whole anti-european diatribe what does it says about what political spectrum you're part of?

Besides, with regards to whole topic of a "United European Airforce", do you really think you can discuss military aviation without bringing in politics? In case you didn't notice, if you want to have this United European Air Arm then a political debate is just as important, even more so in many cases. The clues are right in front of you, they're in the name you created, i.e. 'European' and 'United'.

Also, if it makes you happy about discussing military aviation, then here it goes. Your optimistic views about Typhoon, Rafale and Gripen are exactly that, optimistic. Might I add highly unrealistic due to the lack of political willingness. There you go, see how the political side enters the debate...

So let me get this straight, you as an apparently fearsome defender of british identity and viscerally loathful about anything to do with an United Europe concept (in which UK would play a leading role anyway), you're perfectly happy for a foreign hegemonic neo-imperialist power from 5000 miles to tell you what you do in your own country, having constantly undermined the british aerospace industry, starting from right after WW2 (remember the M-52?), then on to the catastrophe of 1965-66 (remember the parliament traitors lobbying for UK to ditch remarkable and promising local designs and buy american, which mostly got **** up anyway) on to things like the cancellation of Nimrod AEW in lieu of E-3 and then the vertiginous drop after the Cold War, industry reduced today to the multi-national Typhoon, which by the looks of things will be the very LAST british manned fighter ever made, and replaced with this F-35 of which UK will make "rear fuselages" they say? As a british citizen are you happy with that? Really ??!

It is this nocive and poisonous mentality that created the situation today, the loath of your fellow european neighbour, that increasingly leaves us at the mercy of US interests and moods, them being masterfully able to exploit such stupidity (see the Middle East, Asia etc.). By the looks of it after Typhoon the british aerospace industry will have basically died forever, would the swedish manage to build that FS-2020? Chances don't look good unless there will be joint participation with other countries, if not, their aerospace industry will be dead too. Would the french, the only one who more or less managed to maintain a high degree of independence, be able to build a successor for Rafale? Well today, their cronies at the top are competing with UK as the most obedient US vassal, so chances are they might buy F-35s too! Once this is done then that's it the european aerospace will be completely dead. Even if in the 12th hour we would have woken up and wish to finally stand for ourselves, we couldn't we would be totally defenseless. A mere Canada (oh speaking of which, remember their Arrow story?) or Australia to the US, if not worse, like Mexico, or even worse than that (like ME today, everyone against everyone, and everyone buying US crap while oppressing their own peoples, making the US MIC and their oligarchs more and more filthy rich). There will be only 3, maybe 4 fully independent aerospace industries (and countries) left, US, China, Russia and maybe India, we'll see. We will be history.

Remind me, in what way is the USN a threat to Europe again?

I explained before, they would be very unhappy if we would be independent and in a defence alliance of our own, hence the need to protect our independence, they will be a strategical opponent. I DID NOT said we should go to war with them, we should trade and what not as long as on mutually beneficial terms (like they do with Russia and China today, even if they rather hate them to guts, especially China). So parity or near parity with whatever US Atlantic fleet they will have is essential to protect our independence, and to support our interests when necessary.

American banks own to much of Europe for the above to ever happen. European banks like wise own to much of US for the above to ever happen.

The investment entanglement between Europe and North America is much larger then even the trade entanglement between the two. The economic cost of disentangling the two even at just the defense level would be extremely large. The cost on the European side would be larger then the cost on US side. In the long term Europe would fall farther and farther behind US because of larger US defense spending coupled with the complete removal of European defense industry from US market.

Everything is possible if there is the will, up to a point. Right now we would STILL be able to go on an independent road, even if costly, because we STILL have a defence industry that can support us in that endeavour. But once that will be gone, then, as i said above, that's it. We're done.
I don't even see it that way in reference to the defence industry, THEY will shrink too, they would have lost our huge market, and they will be in true competition with us on the world market, and we would be in a much better position because we would not be politically subdued to them, hence more confidence from a lot of buyers to buy from us, especially countries that do not want to become dependent to US will, and i'm sure many other countries currently US aligned would love to "switch" too.


English, it's the language everyone speaks now.

Yes indeed.

Member for

19 years

Posts: 1,190

That's an interesting world you live in Eichmann............I mean, Mack.

Member for

11 years 1 month

Posts: 253

Everything is possible if there is the will, up to a point. Right now we would STILL be able to go on an independent road, even if costly, because we STILL have a defence industry that can support us in that endeavour. But once that will be gone, then, as i said above, that's it. We're done.
I don't even see it that way in reference to the defence industry, THEY will shrink too, they would have lost our huge market, and they will be in true competition with us on the world market, and we would be in a much better position because we would not be politically subdued to them, hence more confidence from a lot of buyers to buy from us, especially countries that do not want to become dependent to US will, and i'm sure many other countries currently US aligned would love to "switch" too.

You will find in life that actions that result in increased future costs and destruction existing economic relationships and money invested for sole reason of misguided political goals will fail for those very reasons. Europe's defense market is not anywhere close to the size of US industry. The massive shrinkage that would result from from abandoning defense ties between US and Europe would be very large for Europe. You talk of political will to achieve goals but what you propose is a low cost of the shelf solution of replacing F35 with less capable planes. If Europe had the will to develop a 5th generation aircraft that would support your idea but they don't have that will at this time and what you propose is simply a protectionist proposal that would weaken Europe for short term economic gains of not buying american. Gains that would then turn to dust rapidly as US congress enacted a similar policy.

I'm also sure no other countries want to buy overpriced under performing European military systems when they can buy cheaper and better military systems from the US.

[/QUOTE]

Member for

19 years 7 months

Posts: 86

Everything is possible if there is the will, up to a point. Right now we would STILL be able to go on an independent road, even if costly, because we STILL have a defence industry that can support us in that endeavour. But once that will be gone, then, as i said above, that's it. We're done.
I don't even see it that way in reference to the defence industry, THEY will shrink too, they would have lost our huge market, and they will be in true competition with us on the world market, and we would be in a much better position because we would not be politically subdued to them, hence more confidence from a lot of buyers to buy from us, especially countries that do not want to become dependent to US will, and i'm sure many other countries currently US aligned would love to "switch" too.

You will find in life that actions that result in increased future costs and destruction existing economic relationships and money invested for sole reason of misguided political goals will fail for those very reasons. Europe's defense market is not anywhere close to the size of US industry. The massive shrinkage that would result from from abandoning defense ties between US and Europe would be very large for Europe. You talk of political will to achieve goals but what you propose is a low cost of the shelf solution of replacing F35 with less capable planes. If Europe had the will to develop a 5th generation aircraft that would support your idea but they don't have that will at this time and what you propose is simply a protectionist proposal that would weaken Europe for short term economic gains of not buying american. Gains that would then turn to dust rapidly as US congress enacted a similar policy.

I'm also sure no other countries want to buy overpriced under performing European military systems when they can buy cheaper and better military systems from the US.

[/QUOTE]

LOl That's alot of cheap US commercial reasoning.

The EU defence industry is perfectly capable of developing it's own defense systems without having to buy US made weapons as it has proven with the gripen, rafale and typhoon. Off course all noses have to point in the same direction, something that's not always the case here.

US being cheap must be the joke of the decade, the F35 is the world most underwelming, overpriced "low budget" plane ever made. you can get really cheap EU alternative which fit perfectly in todays operations of our forces. So far It's hasn't proven a single thing except that it can ruin a country financially if it puchases it.

Developing your own systems means you poor you hard earned taxmoney into your own industry instead of that of another country, thus creating jobs here and not there.
That's how we made airbus in the past to give you a nice example.

That way you can talk to the US on equal terms. You can still work nicely together and retain your independence

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 5,905


[..]

That's how we made airbus in the past to give you a nice example.


The problem is lying right there: it is not anymore the time of devoted pioneer. Gone they are, their heritage eaten away.


That way you can talk to the US on equal terms. You can still work nicely together and retain your independence

Don't you see what I mean ? ...

Member for

14 years 4 months

Posts: 2,114

Indeed the idea that the eurocanards are "inferior" in any way it's absolutely ridiculous (just read about various excercises when they're pitted against US types). The only thing that held them down from realising their full potential (like more powerful engines, AESA radars etc.) is the very buying of american aircraft (except France, the reason there being that they are left on their own) with the limited funds available dictated by corrupt politicians, rather than investing those same money LOCALLY, which among other things, will brings DOWN the prices. Otherwise they are FANTASTIC aircraft, able to duke it out with the best the US or Russia or anyone else has to offer right now (especially on the export market- that F-35 doesn't show signs of being ready anytime soon, meanwhile the eurocanards are here and READY), and with limited upgrades (gimballed AESA, latest self-defence suites, more powerful engines) can stand up in a defensive scenario to even F-22.

Replacing the F-35 orders in Italy, UK etc. with simply more Typhoons, and those ordered by Belgium, Norway, Netherlands etc., with Gripens will not only contribute to lowering the prices of those aircraft, but also financing installing the very latest upgrades on them to keep them competitive until something like that FS-2020 (to directly face F-35) and an european twin engine medium-heavy stealth fighter (to directly face F-22 and their notional NGAD) could take over. And say what they say, but there's absolutely no way that the said F-35 buy will create and maintain more jobs in Europe compared to actually ordering and investing in the eurocanards, no way whatsoever, regardless what LM propaganda says.

Regarding the eurocanards and finding a niche for each of them, i was thinking about a stretched, slightly bigger Typhoon (sort of like SH to F/A-18C) with more fuel and more range, with EJ-230 engines, perhaps CFTs, and perhaps one LO pod under the fuselage, thus obtaining a direct counterpart to F-15SE and Silent SH, with the Rafale holding the middle sector, and Gripen the light fighter sector. There would be a potential market for another 750 or even much more eurocanards and their support imo for both european and export market, IN ADDITION to those already built, and that is far more valuable that building some bits and bobs for the claimed 3000 F-35s (will never happen, you'll see), at least twice or thrice more euros/pounds by 2030, and a comparably HIGHER number of jobs, not to mention skills, know-how etc.

In fact, most of the above can even be achieved while maintain this damn "special relationship" if there's the will, just like Typhoon, Tornado, Jaguar and many others were built LOCALLY in lieu of US designs. But as it looks now the traitorous and coward politicians in the US pocket on most of the european countries now are selling us to the americans for good, by destroying and dismantling the local defence industry, capacities and know-how. May the *******s rot in hell.

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 2,631

Your loathful attitude to the rest of Europe and the very concept of a United European Military shows just that!
Wow... What a tragic mess of a post.

Would you like to point out where I've had a loathful attitude to rest of Europe, ever on this forum? Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us?

I do not agree with all of Europe's policies in the same way I do not agree with a lot of British policies. Having such disagreements doesn't mean I have any special kinds of hatred towards any of the countries involved. What I do agree with what Europe does, I there for support, the same can be said for what the UK does, that doesn't also mean I'm Pro-British nor an Ultranationalist.

I do not agree with a "United European Military" because 'I believe' it will not work. Each European country have different requirements and have different views on world matters. I asked you a question on a likely scenario of deploying one or two Aircraft Carriers and how to solve the differences of the EU's matters. You totally ignored it. So, how can you have a United European Military when you can't even solve that seemingly simple situation?

Again, not agreeing with such an idea does not mean I, nor anyone else for that matter, has a special kind of hatred for the idea. Do learn how to know the differences.

I may be hypocritical (no one is perfect) but i'm not the only one.
Then you ought to get to grips with being hypocritical. It's one thing being hypocritical, it's rather astonishing to admit you have such a downfall.

What other conclusion one can draw after your posts here? Some time ago i (probably mistakenly) alluded about being an EDL sympathiser or whatever, which you categorically denied (to put it mildly). But this whole anti-european diatribe what does it says about what political spectrum you're part of?
Yes, the EDL (English Defence League) sympathiser remark, to the members unaware of their existents, they're just a modern day Nazi Party. An easy remark to state when someone doesn't agree with one's, lets say, 'ideal world', so to speak.

See above, and again, feel free to enlighten us.

So let me get this straight, you as an apparently fearsome defender of british identity and viscerally loathful about anything to do with an United Europe concept (in which UK would play a leading role anyway), you're perfectly happy for a foreign hegemonic neo-imperialist power from 5000 miles to tell you what you do in your own country, having constantly undermined the british aerospace industry, starting from right after WW2 (remember the M-52?), then on to the catastrophe of 1965-66 (remember the parliament traitors lobbying for UK to ditch remarkable and promising local designs and buy american, which mostly got **** up anyway) on to things like the cancellation of Nimrod AEW in lieu of E-3 and then the vertiginous drop after the Cold War...

See above, again... Moving onto the point of, 'in which UK would play a leading role anyway.' You're harping on about "Independence", so what is "Independent" about a "United European Military" when another country takes a leading role? Once again, you're ignoring the very likely chances of something called, 'Disagreements.' Which would occur.

I'm rather aware of the situations in the past that you've pointed out, what they have to do with this discussion is something totally off topic. Regardless, am I happy? No, of course not. What can I do to make things better... Move on, worry about things that have an affect on one's life. What happened in the past cannot be altered in the future unless you have access to a Delorean fitted with a Flux Capacitor, otherwise tough titty.

...industry reduced today to the multi-national Typhoon, which by the looks of things will be the very LAST british manned fighter ever made, and replaced with this F-35 of which UK will make "rear fuselages" they say? As a british citizen are you happy with that? Really ??!
Are you having difficulties distinguishing the difference Multinational and British? Are you also having a bit of Brain Fade, BAE Hawk not ring a bell?... Aren't you also aware of that what Britain produces today that isn't just military fast jets?... No, not ehm... Aware... of anything?... Anything else in particular?... Not done your research on other areas?...

Getting out of the Stewie Griffin sarcasm.*

Regarding that quote, am I happy as a British citizen, really? While keeping in mind what the country produces as a whole. Yes, I am. While it would be nice if we had 'Made in Great Britain' gear I would be just as happy enough to go multinational, more specifically, contributing to European, i.e. Eurofighter. It brings Europe as a whole closer together in developing what we/they do best, so long as it works well, and it jolly does more often than not, then it's a positive chapter in my book. Oh dear, am I showing my loathfulness Anti-European side again? Tsk-Tsk.

It is this nocive and poisonous mentality that created the situation today, the loath of your fellow european neighbour, that increasingly leaves us at the mercy of US interests and moods, them being masterfully able to exploit such stupidity (see the Middle East, Asia etc.). By the looks of it after Typhoon the british aerospace industry will have basically died forever, would the swedish manage to build that FS-2020? Chances don't look good unless there will be joint participation with other countries, if not, their aerospace industry will be dead too. Would the french, the only one who more or less managed to maintain a high degree of independence, be able to build a successor for Rafale? Well today, their cronies at the top are competing with UK as the most obedient US vassal, so chances are they might buy F-35s too! Once this is done then that's it the european aerospace will be completely dead. Even if in the 12th hour we would have woken up and wish to finally stand for ourselves, we couldn't we would be totally defenseless. A mere Canada (oh speaking of which, remember their Arrow story?) or Australia to the US, if not worse, like Mexico, or even worse than that (like ME today, everyone against everyone, and everyone buying US crap while oppressing their own peoples, making the US MIC and their oligarchs more and more filthy rich). There will be only 3, maybe 4 fully independent aerospace industries (and countries) left, US, China, Russia and maybe India, we'll see. We will be history.

You have quite a view on the rest of the world, very loathing like...

'I'd love to stay and chat. But you're a complete b*tch!'

- Stewie Griffin.

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15 years 2 months

Posts: 2,631

But as it looks now the traitorous and coward politicians in the US pocket on most of the european countries now are selling us to the americans for good, by destroying and dismantling the local defence industry, capacities and know-how. May the *******s rot in hell.
Whom is the most traitorous and cowardly, the Americans for offering or the Europeans for accepting?

What you're accusing me of being, you're blatantly showing yourself. Indeed, you're correct. You really are hypocritical.