Helicopter News & Discussion

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9 years 10 months

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The Magnificent?

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7 years 11 months

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It seems as if rotary wing Aerodynamics is something you spell only in German at Airbus. Great news (and without any soporific introduction speech) . ...But still the reflex flaps are there ;) http://srdfmc.free.fr/images/RotarWingAero_DesinDiff_AgW.jpg http://srdfmc.free.fr/images/RotarWingAero_DesinDiff_Airb.jpg

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11 years 7 months

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Anyone see the bit about the Italian army Mangusta doing live streaming from an unmanned SW-4 helo during a recent EX. Popped up on twitter but now I can't find it...:mad:
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9 years

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Something I've been wondering for a while: in the medium/long-term, just how screwed is the European helicopter industry? The Americans are preparing to leap into the next-generation with FVL. The Russians are on the cusp of fielding a new generation of platforms (Mi-38, Ka-60/62) and are also investing in high-speed helicopter projects (e.g. RACHEL) The Chinese are advancing by leaps and bounds. And of course there's Korea, India, Turkey, Brazil, Japan, South Africa -- most of which can be assumed to play larger roles going forward than they have in the past. ... and the Europeans are simply coasting on past achievements, with minimal state investment in the present and even more dismal prospects for the future. Even the X3 as a modification of AS365 is clearly driven by a scarcity of funds. Let's not forget the X4 walkback and the seemingly extinct European heavy helicopter project. A generation from now (>2035) will Europe still be relevant?
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9 years 8 months

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Something I've been wondering for a while: in the medium/long-term, just how screwed is the European helicopter industry? The Americans are preparing to leap into the next-generation with FVL. The Russians are on the cusp of fielding a new generation of platforms (Mi-38, Ka-60/62) and are also investing in high-speed helicopter projects (e.g. RACHEL) The Chinese are advancing by leaps and bounds. And of course there's Korea, India, Turkey, Brazil, Japan, South Africa -- most of which can be assumed to play larger roles going forward than they have in the past. ... and the Europeans are simply coasting on past achievements, with minimal state investment in the present and even more dismal prospects for the future. Even the X3 as a modification of AS365 is clearly driven by a scarcity of funds. Let's not forget the X4 walkback and the seemingly extinct European heavy helicopter project. A generation from now (>2035) will Europe still be relevant?
I don't understand what you mean. Americans might be investing into new gen, but in the meantime, European producers are stealing the worldwide market with designs like AW139, AW149, EC135, EC145, EC120. Look at the offer of Bell and Sikorsky.. except teh B429 you only get a hundred-times warmed up B206/406, small H500s and the venerable, but way too expensive S-70 series. Which private company which needs to pay the bills would buy it? The Russian investment into new platforms like Mi-38 or Ka-62 is nice, but ain't that just catching up designs which are already established on the market (AW101, AW139..)? Korea- KUH, nothing much else India - Dhruv, what else? Turkey - you mean Italian A129 now? Brazil - no idea, what do they make, except licensed Esquilos and Panthers? Japan, South Africa - dtto Frankly, I see Europe as the major player on the civilian market for decades to come.. They might not be that willing to invest into hi-speed projects which might eventually end up a costly, yet economically useless adventure (I love the Raider, BTW) but they truly stick to what they do best..
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Yes nonsense. Almost trolling perhaps. Just look at the rotor on that EH101!
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I don't understand what you mean. Americans might be investing into new gen, but in the meantime, European producers are stealing the worldwide market with designs like AW139, AW149, EC135, EC145, EC120.
Sure, that'll work for the next decade or so. After that the Americans with their FVL-derived next-gen platforms will eat the high-end and the Chinese will eat the low end.
The Russian investment into new platforms like Mi-38 or Ka-62 is nice, but ain't that just catching up designs which are already established on the market (AW101, AW139..)?
Yes, but it indicates that Russia is serious about returning to the market and R&D projects are being funded accordingly for both military and civilian applications over the short, medium, and long-term. Contrast to Europe where the state funding outlook is dismal and almost certain to get worse.
Korea- KUH, nothing much else India - Dhruv, what else? Turkey - you mean Italian A129 now? Brazil - no idea, what do they make, except licensed Esquilos and Panthers? Japan, South Africa - dtto
Did you miss that I was talking on generational timescales i.e. post-2035? Who cares what these countries are making now, the point is they will continue to develop and build on that experience and make more stuff in future, reducing access to those domestic markets and potentially competing for exports also.
Frankly, I see Europe as the major player on the civilian market for decades to come.. They might not be that willing to invest into hi-speed projects which might eventually end up a costly, yet economically useless adventure (I love the Raider, BTW) but they truly stick to what they do best..
Problem with the civilian market is that they won't fund the R&D necessary to make transformational leaps. The American government is doing that (for military applications) and eventually the benefits will percolate into the civilian market. Similar story for the Russians and Chinese, although they are of course significantly further behind.
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9 years 1 month

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Re. the new Russian helos (Mi-38 and Ka-62, as well as the high speed projects) essentially all 3 have varying problems with inadequate funding. Europe's standing in the civilian market really is on another level.
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9 years 8 months

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Sure, that'll work for the next decade or so. After that the Americans with their FVL-derived next-gen platforms will eat the high-end and the Chinese will eat the low end.
Chinese break-through ain't that easy. Just like they have failed to penetrate the automotive market, they will have a very hard time to do the same in airliners, helicopters, even fighter aircraft (outside of Asia and Africa, that is)..
Yes, but it indicates that Russia is serious about returning to the market and R&D projects are being funded accordingly for both military and civilian applications over the short, medium, and long-term. Contrast to Europe where the state funding outlook is dismal and almost certain to get worse.
Ka-60/62 has been around since 1998 and it has flown in two examples thus far. In the meantime, AW139, which has been around since 2001 has been exported to 42 military clients alone and the portfolio has been extended by AW149, AW169 and AW189.. Add 13 military clients for NH90, 12 clients for EH/AW101, 15 clients for EC120, 30 for EC135, 19 for EC145, plus dozens for Ecureuils/Dauphins/Panthers/Koalas/Lynxes.. But for some reason, Russia is serious about the civilian market and Europe is drowning in dismal outlooks. An interesting logic you got there. :)
Did you miss that I was talking on generational timescales i.e. post-2035? Who cares what these countries are making now, the point is they will continue to develop and build on that experience and make more stuff in future, reducing access to those domestic markets and potentially competing for exports also.
I got you on this but still.. how should SKorea with their single-type experience or Brazil with license-only experience surpass the EU with their current inventory (Dauphin/EC155, Cougar/Caracal, AW101, A109/AW169, AW139, AW149/189, AW159 Lynx, EC120, EC130, EC135/635, EC145/645, G2 Cabri, NH90) is simply beyond me..
Problem with the civilian market is that they won't fund the R&D necessary to make transformational leaps. The American government is doing that (for military applications) and eventually the benefits will percolate into the civilian market. Similar story for the Russians and Chinese, although they are of course significantly further behind.
The problem is that the civilian market is conservative and will not strive for generational leaps. And military will never pay your bills, it will only keep eating up the funds. In civilian world, buying a helicopter is already straining the company budget far enough, let alone spend gazzilions for some mythical hi-speed design. How far have we advanced in airliners in last 50 years? They look pretty much the same. Designs like P-180, V-22, BA609 might be interesting from a technical standpoint but if you take their development budget and compare it to revene/winnings they are able to generate, you get back to your drawing board and make another AW199 or EC185. I just can't see company managers stepping out of a Raider in 30 years.

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11 years 7 months

Posts: 265

Something I've been wondering for a while: in the medium/long-term, just how screwed is the European helicopter industry? The Americans are preparing to leap into the next-generation with FVL. The Russians are on the cusp of fielding a new generation of platforms (Mi-38, Ka-60/62) and are also investing in high-speed helicopter projects (e.g. RACHEL) The Chinese are advancing by leaps and bounds. And of course there's Korea, India, Turkey, Brazil, Japan, South Africa -- most of which can be assumed to play larger roles going forward than they have in the past. ... and the Europeans are simply coasting on past achievements, with minimal state investment in the present and even more dismal prospects for the future. Even the X3 as a modification of AS365 is clearly driven by a scarcity of funds. Let's not forget the X4 walkback and the seemingly extinct European heavy helicopter project. A generation from now (>2035) will Europe still be relevant?
Go to Cordis http://cordis.europa.eu/ That's the EU research portal. Start searching there is a lot of stuff in the aviation part on tiltrotor/high speed helo work etc...And that is just the EU stuff.
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14 years 5 months

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Hang on . . . European manufacturers make (& sell at a profit) more helicopters than those of the USA (& trash 'em in the civil market, where buyers are less influenced by politics), & far more than the rest of the world combined, but somehow they're short of money & falling behind technically? :confused:
Profile picture for user MSphere

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9 years 8 months

Posts: 8,850

Hang on . . . European manufacturers make (& sell at a profit) more helicopters than those of the USA (& trash 'em in the civil market, where buyers are less influenced by politics), & far more than the rest of the world combined, but somehow they're short of money & falling behind technically? :confused:
My words, exactly.. In the last two decades, the EU has brutally rolled over the civvie helicopter market and overtook domination in all areas with the exception of the lightest class where the Europeans failed to step in and thus left the market to Robinson R22/R44/R66s. At the same time they are obviously much less sharp towards combat helicopters, there is nothing European-made in the Mi-28/AH-64 class.. But as we have learned, even that might change soon.
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9 years 10 months

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Although if the same airframe is to replace Puma and Mangusta then perhaps its more a Euro-Hind that they envisage? I use the names because sometimes so many models and variant numbers can be confusing if you don't know much about the subject (Rii- wink wink).
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9 years

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Hang on . . . European manufacturers make (& sell at a profit) more helicopters than those of the USA (& trash 'em in the civil market, where buyers are less influenced by politics), & far more than the rest of the world combined, but somehow they're short of money & falling behind technically? :confused:
I would've thought the last few years would've put an end to Euro complacency of all kinds, but apparently not. The present is bright, therefore the future is bright -- I love it. ;)