The truth about the F-22

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6 years 6 months

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We have lived with the propaganda and hype about the power the F-22 too long. From year 2000 to 2012.

1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22
http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth+Coatings+Applied+to+F22/article21321.htm
http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f-22-notches-first-guided-aim-9x-sidewinder-firing
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-wants-improved-day-night-f-22-raptor-helmet-by-413962/

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Profile picture for user Y-20 Bacon

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6 years 7 months

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The Chinese would say

F-22 sux cuz no DSI

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7 years 1 month

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The truth is finally here! Please, inform us what is the best fighter in world and lets close this argument forever.

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It could be the xp-77 "mighty mouse" ?

Stealth, cheap...and high landing speed.

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1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22
I have serious doubts about this.. The Raptor is the only fighter giving emphasis on rear aspect RCS reduction. There might be discrete angles where the F-35 has smaller RCS, but overall value is hardly anywhere near the F-22.

2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems
That's not exactly news. The architecture of Raptor's systems is two and half decades old

3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher
BS, IMHO.. The F-15 or J-10 don't even come close.. I believe that Raptor excels in hi-speed maneuverability over pretty much anything, at low speeds it's debatable.

4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.
Is that an argument? :)

5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.
Last time I checked, Rafale did not have any HMDS.

6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM
F-22s fly without RAM? Who told you that?

7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.
That's true.. Even worse, the various Blocks are not directly compatible with each other, the earlier ones being harder to upgrade than the later ones.

8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.
How many is many accidents? There is the well known asphyxia problem, what else?

9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.
I don't think it was ever intended to use one...

10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4
Irrelevant.. What matters is the range at the max. cruise speed.

11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)
True.. And Su-35S only can use R-73 and R-77 and R-27s. Rafale only can use MICA and Magic. What's wrong with that?

Profile picture for user bring_it_on

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F-22 Aim-9X capability has been tested and is going to be incorporated over the next few years.. The HMS issue is also being tackled and hopefully the F-22 will have an HMS over the next few years as well. Aim-120D should also follow in the next block that is currently being developed. But did we seriously need a new thread for all this?

http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f-22-notches-first-guided-aim-9x-sidewinder-firing

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OP is good example why this and many other forums should have age limit.

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OP is good example why this and many other forums should have age limit.

X2

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Most points are BS and well answered by MSphere so I will not waste my time on them but;


2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems
That's not exactly news. The architecture of Raptor's systems is two and half decades old

Better technology, yes, but better specifications? For example comparing two Russian radars -to avoid blind chestpounding-, Zhuk-AE and Zaslon-M: Zaslon-M excels in all parameters, despite its more than 30 years older. In the same analogy, APG-77 is physically much larger than RBE2 or CAPTOR to make up for its any technological "deficiency".


3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher
BS, IMHO.. The F-15 or J-10 don't even come close.. I believe that Raptor excels in hi-speed maneuverability over pretty much anything, at low speeds it's debatable.

F-22 will surely have better maneuverability than F-16/J-10/Rafale/Typhoon especially with fuel for long range flights and at high altitude for air superiority missions. Still for same mission, I expect Su-27 and F-15 to offer better overall maneuverability though.

Member for

5 years 4 months

Posts: 584

We have lived with the propaganda and hype about the power the F-22 too long. From year 2000 to 2012.

1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35-stealthier-f-22
http://www.dailytech.com/F35+Stealth+Coatings+Applied+to+F22/article21321.htm
http://www.janes.com/article/51375/f-22-notches-first-guided-aim-9x-sidewinder-firing
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-wants-improved-day-night-f-22-raptor-helmet-by-413962/


Are you here to provoke a reaction for a laugh?

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Somebody doesn't understand the difference between their opinion and verifiable facts.

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Is school out?

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Better technology, yes, but better specifications? For example comparing two Russian radars -to avoid blind chestpounding-, Zhuk-AE and Zaslon-M: Zaslon-M excels in all parameters, despite its more than 30 years older. In the same analogy, APG-77 is physically much larger than RBE2 or CAPTOR to make up for its any technological "deficiency".
I've had mainly processing power on my mind. But it's a fair point..

F-22 will surely have better maneuverability than F-16/J-10/Rafale/Typhoon especially with fuel for long range flights and at high altitude for air superiority missions. Still for same mission, I expect Su-27 and F-15 to offer better overall maneuverability though.

I have never found the (low-speed) maneuvrability of the F-15 as too impressive.. The F-22, OTOH does pretty much the same things as latest Sukhois love to do..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mO0aTJp5w

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F-22 will surely have better maneuverability than F-16/J-10/Rafale/Typhoon especially with fuel for long range flights and at high altitude for air superiority missions. Still for same mission, I expect Su-27 and F-15 to offer better overall maneuverability though.

Maneuverability is a rather nebulous term. Depends to a great extent on the flight regime. At transonic and supersonic regime the only aircraft that can match the F-22 will be the PAK FA, with a slicked off EF being the next best thing.

At lower speeds its an open field - MiG-29, Rafale, SH, F-35 all fairly competitive. But the F-22 will still be better than the baseline Su-27 and far better than all variants of the F-15.

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"Low speed" is relative; If you are talking about supermaneuverability than yes, F-15 lacks in that area. However other than safety and controllability, TVC has zero contribution to actual turn performance.

What I consider "low speed" is below M1.0; ie which should involve 99,9% of the dogfighting maneuverability. This -irrelevant of design choices- is also the maximum maneuverability of the aircraft. Anything from P-51 to MiG-31 will achieve its highest sustained turn rates below transonic and F-22 Typhoon etc is no exception. With supersonic speeds both lift capability of the wing degrade and drag increase. There is no way around that.

So when people claim F-22 Typhoon etc will have better "high speed" maneuverability than F-15/Su-27. This will prove correct in only two scenarios:

a) F-22 has better turn performance even at subsonic speeds, and it remains better than F-15/Su-27 at supersonic. This I find unlikely, given how unimpressive it is at airshows, and some basic numbers like T/W Wing loading etc doesn't just add up.
-or-
b) F-22 has less degredation in lift or thrust, or less increase in drag, compared to Su-27 or F-15.
Maybe, maybe not, like I've said in my previous posts about this subject, I don't have anything to prove/disprove anything, but if you list F-22's aerodynamic features one by one and compare it with Su-27/F-15, it really doesn't have anything to explain the super-duper maneuverability claims.

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At transonic and supersonic regime the only aircraft that can match the F-22 will be the PAK FA, with a slicked off EF being the next best thing.
....
But the F-22 will still be better than the baseline Su-27 and far better than all variants of the F-15.

Based on what exactly?

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I've had mainly processing power on my mind. But it's a fair point..

I have never found the (low-speed) maneuvrability of the F-15 as too impressive.. The F-22, OTOH does pretty much the same things as latest Sukhois love to do..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1mO0aTJp5w

The question about radar is another byproduct of a certain emphasys about AESA superiority over previous systems.
Someone genuinely think that having an AESA antenna would made any radar automatically superior to the previous ones.
Well, it is not like so, even putting the best antenna available on it wouldn't make a F-5 or MiG 21 (and F-16 is not much better) size radar better to the AGW-9 on the F-14, neither to mention the actual PESA radar on the Mig-31 or the Su-35.
Changing an antenna with AESA modules would certainly better radar performance of a given radar, but even a Bars radar with it on wouldn't be superior to a PESA IRBIS, like the proposed ones for the F-16 wouldn't surpass the Typoon's one. .

Profile picture for user Vnomad

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I have serious doubts about this.. The Raptor is the only fighter giving emphasis on rear aspect RCS reduction. There might be discrete angles where the F-35 has smaller RCS, but overall value is hardly anywhere near the F-22.

While the F-22 is stealthier from the rear aspect, the other claim is much harder to verify.

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Based on what exactly?

Thrust to weight ratios. Empirical observations vis a vis drag. But more importantly, details that come through from test pilots, squadron pilots, exercises, etc. But I admit it is a general impression rather than a conclusion based on hard numbers.

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F-22 doesn't have better T/W than F-15 or Su-27, that is assuming 35000 pound class DO means 35000 pound class as some disagree. As for maneuverability, I had written a thing or two about this in PAK-FA thread, I didn't go further as it was OT.

........
unfortunately, an anectode is hardly an evidence of anything. In mere 3 second google search, I can quote an F-16 pilot, trash talk MiG-29's dogfight ability, and a MiG-29G pilot who says just the opposite.
........
Subjectively, IMHO, F-15 looks more impressive and powerful than F-22; It completes 360 turns better, accelerates better; it even rolls equally good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-4EwvGVYxE
........
OK, comparing F-22's 3,7G achieved sustained turn at 30000 feet at M0,9 to F-15A at 50% fuel flight manual data. F-15A can pull;
4,3Gs when clean,
3,7Gs with 4xAIM-7, 4xAIM-9 and CL tank pylon;
3,5G with 4xAIM-7, 4xAIM-9 and CL EF tank.
3,1G with 4x AIM-7, 4xAIM-9, CFT, Cl tank pylon, and 100% internal fuel.

F-16 at DI=50 can pull 3,26Gs at same altitude/speed @26000lbs (roughly equal to 6 AAMs and 50% fuel)

There goes another number vs. number comparison that does not support F-22's claimed superior kinematics.
............
Ok, I've gone too much off-topic perhaps I should keep quiet.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=239675&d=1438795472

I was referring to F-22's demonstrated maneuverability as quoted in KPP as 3,7G at 30k feet M0,9, which I assumed with 50% fuel (as its the most reasonable assumption)

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Most points are BS and well answered by MSphere so I will not waste my time on them but;

Better technology, yes, but better specifions?


The F-22 avionics rely on (obsolete) custom processors and interconnects. The software is written in ADA and tailored to its custom hardware (which is making upgrades extremely difficult).

Rafale & F-35 avionics rely on commercial off-the-shelf CPUs and interconnects. The software is written in C/C++ and is targeted at a virtual machine that is emulated by the COTS hardware. That way it is possible to upgrade/replace the hardware without rewriting the software making future upgrade painless (e.g. Rafale has already gone through two different generation of CPU since the F2 standard).

So it's perfectly correct to claim that the F-22 avionics are problematic even though they're still miles ahead of the non-IMA avionics found in, well, every other fighter except the Rafale & F-35.