Read the forum code of contact
By: 2nd February 2016 at 13:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-I read this about carriage of weapons in the weapons bay:
For the F-35A, the airspeed at which the weapons bay doors can be open in flight (550 knots or 1.2 Mach) is less than the maximum aircraft speed allowable (700 knots or 1.6 Mach). Such a restriction will limit tactics to employment of weapons at lower speeds and may create advantages for threat aircraft being pursued by the F-35A.
Seems like the aircraft cannot actively defend itself at speeds above M1.2 - and needing to launch a missile at a speed below M1.2 robs the missile of energy, doesn't it? This sounds like a hardware issue. Are there plans to fix it or will F-35 have to depend on A2A missiles on under-wing stations when used as a fighter?
By: 2nd February 2016 at 13:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2016/01/DOT%26E%202015%20F-35%20Annual%20Report.pdfSeems like the aircraft cannot actively defend itself at speeds above M1.2 - and needing to launch a missile at a speed below M1.2 robs the missile of energy, doesn't it? This sounds like a hardware issue. Are there plans to fix it or will F-35 have to depend on A2A missiles on under-wing stations when used as a fighter?
I thought that was interesting too. They don't clarify the issue in the DoT&E report. What makes it particularly odd is that the F-35 had previously flown at mach 1.6 with bay doors open, so it may be a temporary restriction based on what was observed in testing. As with some of the g-restrictions due to the fuel valve, it may be a precautionary measure.
Edit- the restriction may related to environmental conditions in the bay, and associated with the airspeed restrictions on keeping the bay closed for over ten minutes at certain altitudes and airspeeds. This is associated with Block 2B, which is not the F-35A IOC configuration. It is very odd that the DOT&E report would talk about operational restrictions on weapon and countermeasure deployment for the F-35A in 2B when there will be no 2B F-35A flying combat coded.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 14:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-it is probably because the 2B was declared operational by the USMC.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 15:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Each service determines the criteria it will use for IOC. The Marines wanted the ability to use GBUs for CAS, giving their F-35Bs parity with their AV-8Bs. They got that capability.
Air Force and Navy want more capability, so they wait until 3F is complete.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 15:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Shouldn't the title just be "F-35 News and discussion (2016)" since it's the first of 2016?
On the Weapon Bay Door issues, only the F-35A was cleared for Mach 1.6 with Block 2B/3i. Since there were not details as to why the door use above 1.2 was not given, it was likely just not tested.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Shouldn't the title just be "F-35 News and discussion (2016)" since it's the first of 2016?On the Weapon Bay Door issues, only the F-35A was cleared for Mach 1.6 with Block 2B/3i. Since there were not details as to why the door use above 1.2 was not given, it was likely just not tested.
Sure on the title.... Flight sciences testing already flew the "A" to 700 knots with bays open and closed. Considering the other bay restrictions in place, I would think there is a concern that became apparent in testing.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Each service determines the criteria it will use for IOC. The Marines wanted the ability to use GBUs for CAS, giving their F-35Bs parity with their AV-8Bs. They got that capability.Air Force and Navy want more capability, so they wait until 3F is complete.
Can it really even do CAS?
"However, if used in combat, the Block 2B F-35 will need
support from command and control elements to avoid
threats, assist in target acquisition, and control weapons
employment for the limited weapons carriage available
(i.e., two bombs, two air-to-air missiles). Block 2B
defi ciencies in fusion, electronic warfare, and weapons
employment result in ambiguous threat displays, limited
ability to respond to threats, and a requirement for
off-board sources to provide accurate coordinates for
precision attack. Since Block 2B F-35 aircraft are limited
to two air-to-air missiles, they will require other support
if operations are contested by enemy fi ghter aircraft."
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-may be that the issue isn't with the bay doors per se, but during the separation sequence. the F/A-18 has its pylons canted outwards for such a reason, so maybe that the airflow below the aircraft makes the separation difficult/risky above M1.2
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Can it really even do CAS?
Since the SLICCiC is known for blowing things WAY out of proportion, this is most likely a non-issue.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-I found this nugget pretty scary too:
Under F35A Flight Sciences
"Testing to characterize the thermal environment of the
weapons bays demonstrated that temperatures become
excessive during ground operations in high ambient
temperature conditions and in-fl ight under conditions
of high speed and at altitudes below 25,000 feet. As a
result, during ground operations, fl eet pilots are restricted
from keeping the weapons bay doors closed for more
than 10 cumulative minutes prior to take-off when
internal stores are loaded and the outside air temperature
is above 90 degrees Fahrenheit. In fl ight, the 10-minute
restriction also applies when fl ying at airspeeds equal to
or greater than 500 knots at altitudes below 5,000 feet;
550 knots at altitudes between 5,000 and 15,000 feet; and
600 knots at altitudes between 15,000 and 25,000 feet.
Above 25,000 feet, there are no restrictions associated
with the weapons bay doors being closed, regardless
of temperature. The time limits can be reset by fl ying
10 minutes outside of the restricted conditions (i.e., slower
or at higher altitudes). This will require pilots to develop
tactics to work around the restricted envelope; however,
threat and/ or weather conditions may make completing the
mission diffi cult or impossible using the work around.
For F35B Flight Sciences it says the following:
"Testing to characterize the thermal environment of the
weapons bays demonstrated that temperatures become
excessive during ground operations in high ambient
temperature conditions. As a result, during ground
operations, fl eet pilots are restricted from keeping the
weapons bay doors closed for more than 10 cumulative
minutes prior to take-off when internal stores are loaded
and the outside air temperature is above 90 degrees
Fahrenheit. Time with the weapons bay doors closed in
fl ight is currently not restricted."
One cannot help but wonder if the lack of flight restriction in comparison to the A model is due to a lack of testing!
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Since the SLICCiC is known for blowing things WAY out of proportion, this is most likely a non-issue.
Yes I'm sure the guys on the ground will be completely happy with the F35 pilot using a pair of binos...
Let me post those words i notice you cut out again.
"However, if used in combat, the Block 2B F-35 will need
support from command and control elements to ... assist in target acquisition, and control weapons
employment...a requirement for
off-board sources to provide accurate coordinates for
precision attack."
Complete non issue, spuddy has spoken.
Because spuddy and all the rest of the cheerleaders all know so much more than the professionals who are in the business of identifying risks and issues.
Hubris doesn't even begin to describe it.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 16:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Yes I'm sure the guys on the ground will be completely happy with the F35 pilot using a pair of binos...
If this were an actual issue that would result in a long term problem, you would have several leaks by now with lots of details.
The lack of leaks speaks volumes.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-If this were an actual issue that would result in a long term problem, you would have several leaks by now with lots of details.The lack of leaks speaks volumes.
Smoke again.
The Marines are never going to take the current F35 anywhere near a shooting war. For the very reasons outlined in the report.
The point and issue here which has sailed straight past you (or not...) is that a fake and completely pointless IOC has been declared for political purposes.
A healthy and positively moving program would not need to sink to such depths to ensure its survival.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-If this were an actual issue that would result in a long term problem, you would have several leaks by now with lots of details.The lack of leaks speaks volumes.
The report is pretty clear: F-35 is not fit for purpose. It is not yet an effective fighter; it is not yet an effective ground attack aircraft.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-there are other gems, like
Testing of operational “dog-fighting” maneuvers showed that the F-35A lacked sufficient energy maneuverability to sustain an energy advantage over fourth generation fighter aircraft. Test pilots flew 17 engagements between an F-35A and an F-16D, which was configured with external fuel tanks that limited the F-16D envelope to 7.0 g’s.
The F-35A remained at a distinct energy disadvantage
on every engagement. Pitch rates were also problematic, where full aft stick maneuvers would result in less than full permissible g loading (i.e., reaching 6.5 g when limit was 9.0 g), and subsequent rapid loss of energy. The slow pitch rates were observed at slower speeds
"distinct energy disadvantage" vs a heavy f-16D limited to 7G, inability to pull more than 6.5G's while the limit is 9 and, despite the lower G attained (so, more "gentle" manoeuver which should allow for better energy level) it still kept loosing too much energy...
Of course, you could always increase FCS response, but if you already loose too much energy at 6.5G's, trying to pull 9 will look like if you tried the same as previously but with a hand-brake on...
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-This report is really freaking..
Exactly what i think since the start:
"Is it appropriate to commit to a “block buy” given that
essentially all the aircraft procured thus far require
modifications to be used in combat? Although still
officially characterized as low-rate, F-35 production rates
are already high. Despite the problems listed above, F-35
production rates have been allowed to steadily increase to
large rates, well prior to the IOT&E and official Full-Rate
Production (FRP) decision. Due to this concurrency of
development and production, approximately 340 aircraft
will be produced by FY17 when developmental testing is
currently planned to end, and over 500 aircraft by FY19
when IOT&E will likely end and the FRP milestone
decision should occur. These aircraft will require a
still-to-be-determined list of modifications in order to
provide full Block 3F combat capability. However, these
modifications may be unaffordable for the Services as they
consider the cost of upgrading these early lots of aircraft
while the program continues to increase production rates in
a fiscally-constrained environment. This may potentially
result in left-behind aircraft with significant limitations for
years to come. "
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-News Flash: Concurrency was a Congressional DEMAND.
Besides, "unknown modifications" will for the most part be software since TR2 came in at Block 3i. The money to update all Block 2A & 2B F-25s to Block 3i has already been set aside. Most Concurrency costs have also been put aside so there is not going to be some huge "surprise" cost to getting them up to 3F.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-The amazing thing is that some people try to downplay what the report is saying. The sad thing is that it reflects what many have been musing may be the case for several years.
The genius in the program is the way it has been structured to ensure that politically it is nigh on impossible to cancel due to the spread of work across so many US states.
The politicians who cancel it run a serious risk of not being re-elected, thus aren't going to cancel it.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-...there is not going to be some huge "surprise" cost to getting them up to 3F.
I'll take the opinion of the professionals over yours ta.
Your track record of cheerleading doesn't stand up too well versus the worryingly accurate reports on the program over the years.
By: 2nd February 2016 at 17:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-Funny how most everything he brought up in the past got taken care of already.
It's almost like the JPO found the issues during SDD and fixed them for some unknown reason :stupid:
The SLICCiC's job is to cry "something's wrong" so that it cannot be swept under the rug, which he does just fine. However, he too often speaks in generalities which tends to fuel rampant "Chicken Little" reactions from anyone who will use any excuse to belittle a program, warranted or not.
The seat ejection issues are a classic example of this. At the time it was first released to the public, there were articles all over claiming the F-35 will kill it's pilots. With more time & info it was soon understood that it only affects a small portion of the flight regime, potentially affected pilots that currently cannot fly other fighters (IIRC few other fighters has a sub 136lb allowance), will be easily fixed (lighter helmet, bracing, software, etc), and most importantly.... DOES NOT affect any current F-35 pilot.
Posts: 3,106
By: FBW - 2nd February 2016 at 13:11
Considering the old thread is well over 100 pages, might as well start anew considering there will most likely be considerable activity over the next few days.
Kicking it off from old thread the DOTE 2015 Report:
DOTE 2015 F-35 report:
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/...nualReport.pdf
link dead, new link- http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2015/pdf/other/2015DOTEAnnualReport.pdf
Interesting snippets:
intro iiv-
points of interest:F-35 pg.35-82