F-35 News and discussion (2016) take III

Read the forum code of contact

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 5,197

There is only so much money every year and they want to kickstart LRSB.

Besides, base on the extra F-35As that Congress added last year and the likelihood that it happens again, they are ahead of the game.

We'll know more when the budget numbers come out in a few days.

Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 893

Completed clean wing flutter testing reaching speeds of 1.6 Mach and 700 knots with weapon bay doors open and closed (...)

Fine, but I think you're reading too much things between the lines. What were the findings of these tests ?

Member for

11 years 7 months

Posts: 3,156

Thanks, but Ill take nearly any source over AV. Bill sweetman has a very well documented agenda. What does validate opening the bays at max speed mean again? GO look up Validate.

It is likely the case that high speed releases haven't been tested yet. The F-35 is still operating under a variety of speed and altitude restrictions and max speed weapons drops aren't where you start your testing...

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 1,407

During the usual, childish squabbling and nob waving that has become the norm on any F-35 thread in this forum (in fact, most threads in this military forum these days...), some of you may have missed the fact that the F-35 is currently taking part in it's first transatlantic crossing, courtesy of the first Italian built F-35A, M.M.7332...

http://cannontwo.blogspot.pt/2016/02/f-35-lightning-ii-aterrou-nas-lajes.html

And a little more info...

http://airheadsfly.com/2016/01/27/f-35-to-start-first-atlantic-crossing-on-2-february/

-Dazza

Member for

8 years 10 months

Posts: 174

During the usual, childish squabbling and nob waving that has become the norm on any F-35 thread in this forum (in fact, most threads in this military forum these days...), some of you may have missed the fact that the F-35 is currently taking part in it's first transatlantic crossing, courtesy of the first Italian built F-35A, M.M.7332...

http://cannontwo.blogspot.pt/2016/02/f-35-lightning-ii-aterrou-nas-lajes.html

And a little more info...

http://airheadsfly.com/2016/01/27/f-35-to-start-first-atlantic-crossing-on-2-february/

-Dazza

from your article:

"Update | The flight was delayed on 2 February due to weather. " :eek:

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 3,106

Sure.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2015/pdf/dod/2015f35jsf.pdf

Good enough source?

Not sure at what altitude the airspeed of 550 knots equals mach 1.2... but im fairly sure that at 25'000 feet it is ~298m/s or ~ 580kts for mach 1.

Have to read the part above.... F-35A with 2B software, was discussed in page 1. In other words, whatever the reason for the restriction there are no F-35A with 2B software that are going to be combat coded. Spudman states they have not tested above Mach 1.2. I think it probably related to bay thermal issues. It's really not an issue if fixed in 3i configuration (for IOC). Probably still not a huge issue till 3f with full war fighting capability.

As others have stated, the test aircraft have flown to 700 knots with bays open and closed.

Member for

14 years 1 month

Posts: 8,850

Given that this is with a brand new aircraft with a tiny fleet size, and that costs dropped by a huge chunk last year, it suggests good things to come. Maybe not F-16 level operating costs, but something well below F-15 costs. (Not to mention some of the crazy numbers the critics have thrown out.)
It's a double compared to an F-16. That is target missed by only 100%.

Member for

15 years 5 months

Posts: 6,983

It's a double compared to an F-16. That is target missed by only 100%.

if you take into consideration that F-15C is more than 40% more expensive to operate than F-15E,
presumably due to age difference, then F-35 is more than double the target, due to F-16 age nowadays

Member for

15 years 8 months

Posts: 2,626

Lexington Institute belittles F-35 test failures

Meeting DOT&E test points is not the reason defense systems are developed and deployed.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/170934/lockheed-lobbyist-shoots-messenger-over-f_35-failings.html

Note added by defense-aerospace editor:

The author of the above opinion piece, whose “think-tank” is financially supported by Lockheed Martin and other US defense contractors, feigns to have forgotten that Congress created the position of Director of OT&E precisely because industry was delivering sub-standard equipment that did not meet contractual goals and was operationally ineffective...

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 5,396

O&TE is a jobs program for .gov bureaucrats. OT&E is an unnecessary additional activity in the timeline. ACC and OPNAV will still have to perform tests using real tactics despite what OT&E does.

In decades past, the testing performed during FSD/EMD was to assure a basic level of safety and operability. Combat-style testing was performed by Tactical Air Command, Etc., not by a one-off test organization whose purpose in life is to perpetuate their jobs.

Member for

8 years 11 months

Posts: 572

Sure.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2015/pdf/dod/2015f35jsf.pdf

Good enough source?

Not sure at what altitude the airspeed of 550 knots equals mach 1.2... but im fairly sure that at 25'000 feet it is ~298m/s or ~ 580kts for mach 1.

But there NO restrictions over 25k! For the bay. Also since when does altitude equal absolute air speed!? Like everything else with this plane, a work around is in order, until the problem can be solved. The pDF mentioned conditions in the bay that stress the life of the stores. It never mentions some catastrophic buffeting.

Member for

9 years 8 months

Posts: 584

During the usual, childish squabbling and nob waving that has become the norm on any F-35 thread in this forum (in fact, most threads in this military forum these days...), some of you may have missed the fact that the F-35 is currently taking part in it's first transatlantic crossing, courtesy of the first Italian built F-35A, M.M.7332...

http://cannontwo.blogspot.pt/2016/02/f-35-lightning-ii-aterrou-nas-lajes.html

And a little more info...

http://airheadsfly.com/2016/01/27/f-35-to-start-first-atlantic-crossing-on-2-february/

-Dazza


Now, I would have put it in a slightly more subtle way but thanks for the info.

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 5,197

one-off test organization whose purpose in life is to perpetuate their jobs.

Hence Gilmore's new title of SLICCiC :eagerness:

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 1,407

Now, I would have put it in a slightly more subtle way...

I thought I was being subtle! :)

-Dazza

Member for

15 years 8 months

Posts: 2,626

O&TE is a jobs program for .gov bureaucrats. OT&E is an unnecessary additional activity in the timeline. ACC and OPNAV will still have to perform tests using real tactics despite what OT&E does.

In decades past, the testing performed during FSD/EMD was to assure a basic level of safety and operability. Combat-style testing was performed by Tactical Air Command, Etc., not by a one-off test organization whose purpose in life is to perpetuate their jobs.

I don't have an axe to grind over O&TE. It may be a level of bureaucracy too far but if F-35 is failing tests it is determined it should pass, it is failing tests it should pass. I doubt very much that if the situation were different and the F-35 had passed the tests it failed the Lexington Institute would be belittling the value of tests. In any event the Lexington Institute's opinions/assessments/analyses have little or no value since the institute is reportedly funded inter alia by LM. Conflict of interest between voicing genuine opinion and voicing opinion that advances the cause of its paymasters.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 3,106

During the usual, childish squabbling and nob waving that has become the norm on any F-35 thread in this forum (in fact, most threads in this military forum these days...),
-Dazza

I have to say Dazza, the debates ( sometimes heated) are what makes this forum. Without discourse, it would be just a "military aviation news" link compilation. And the disagreements are key as well, otherwise: people who had an entirely favorable view of x or y program would stick to the likes of f-16.net, russiadefense, the various Indian defense fora, etc. The discourse makes this a vibrant forum and all should appreciate dissenting opinions (while not accepting them at face value).

I, for one, think it is a perfect mix. My only quibble is when people post without fact checking. I'm sure there are many who many not even post, who have learn more from the disagreements on threads like this, than from the like of Jane's, etc.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 1,407

FBW, I agree, 'discourse' is an essential ingredient in any forum but, my comment stands, too often the same group of individuals carry on with the same pointless, childish, back and forth arguing and petty point scoring, and it ruins the thread having to wade through all the nonsense in the vain hope of trying to find some genuinely useful information. I tend to stick to pprune these days, petty arguing goes on there too, but on nowhere near the scale that one finds here...

-Dazza

Member for

11 years 5 months

Posts: 1,149

But there NO restrictions over 25k! For the bay. Also since when does altitude equal absolute air speed!? Like everything else with this plane, a work around is in order, until the problem can be solved. The pDF mentioned conditions in the bay that stress the life of the stores. It never mentions some catastrophic buffeting.

Are you not reading or intentionally misunderstanding the document?

Above 25,000 feet, there are no restrictions associated
with the weapons bay doors being closed
, regardless
of temperature.

...weapons bay doors being closed...

Yes, the aircraft is allowed to have the bay doors closed above 25'000 feet but the F35A can't open them at above mach 1.2. Tough shlt. But AFAIK nobody has questioned that part.

Member for

15 years 2 months

Posts: 5,197

I don't have an axe to grind over O&TE. It may be a level of bureaucracy too far but if F-35 is failing tests it is determined it should pass, it is failing tests it should pass. I doubt very much that if the situation were different and the F-35 had passed the tests it failed the Lexington Institute would be belittling the value of tests.

DOT&E is not running tests, it is only analyzing & reporting on the progress of the SDD program. In other words, he is not reporting anything that the JPO did not already out into their own reports & test results. He's never telling teh program anything that they don't already know.

This is what aggravates the crap out of a lot of guys & gals in various programs. They already know the issues, have a plan, and in some cases already have a solution long before the DOT&E comes out with a report screaming about a problem that might already be fixed.

Member for

12 years 10 months

Posts: 2,661

Are you not reading or intentionally misunderstanding the document?

...weapons bay doors being closed...


Why would you have a heat build up problem with the bay doors open?! The ambient temp. is well below freezing.

Yes, the aircraft is allowed to have the bay doors closed above 25'000 feet but the F35A can't open them at above mach 1.2. Tough shlt. But AFAIK nobody has questioned that part.

What happens if you decided to open them anyway?

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif., Feb 11, 2013 – An F-35A Lightning II conventional takeoff and landing aircraft, known as AF-1, completed its final test mission for clean wing flutter recently. Flutter testing was conducted to ensure the jet’s structure could withstand various aerodynamic loads verifying the F-35A’s design. The mission, flown by Maj. Ryan “Gunner” Reinhardt, marks the conclusion of three years of testing that now allows the F-35A to proceed with tests continuing to expand its flight envelope and validate predictions in real-world scenarios. The testing demonstrated the F-35 is clear of flutter, at speeds up to 1.6 Mach and 700 knots with weapon bay doors open or closed, critical to performing its combat mission. Data collected proves the F-35A flight dynamics maintains a large margin between its designed airspeed and airspeeds where possible flutter could occur.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/uk/news/press-releases/2013-press-releases/f-35a-completes-3-year-clean-wing-flutter-testing-programme.html