Israel's Lavi Fighter Program

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In case anyone missed it, there was a great book that came out this past month covering Israel's cancelled Lavi fighter program - from its origins in 1970s concept studies, through its eventual cancelation in 1987: http://www.amazon.com/Lavi-United-States-Controversial-Fighter/dp/1612347223 This is one of those development programs that has traditionally been neglected in the library of modern jet aviation. The book is divided between an historical survey with all the expected political intrigue, and the technological elements of the airplane's design and operation. Part of what makes this particular book unusual is that the author has also set up a blog-site that includes material that was omitted from the book for brevity: http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2015/12/lavi-lost-chapters-preface.html http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2015/12/lavi-lost-chapters-haunted.html http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/01/lavi-lost-chapters-future-and-hope.html As well as full color copies of the book's black-and-white illustrations: http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/01/lavi-book-illustrations.html http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2015/12/lavi-book-in-print-photographs.html
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19 years 9 months

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Thank you....the blog site has some very good photos. The F-16XL shown in one of the photos would have been a good strike aircraft had there been more interest...obviously the heavier (and more expensive) F-15E won out.

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Forgive the rather simple view but wasn't the lavi simply a viper with canards and a redesigned wing?
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Forgive the rather simple view but wasn't the lavi simply a viper with canards and a redesigned wing?
No, it was an entire diferent aircraft.
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Lavi would have made F-4 refurbishment attainable as its engine could be used to replace the J79's. The retooled F-4 wouldn't have contended with F-15's, but it allowed for much more powerful equipment on F-4's. Sticking to F-15 and F-16 was much better use of money.

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13 years 4 months

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Lavi Book - Supplemental Material The book's author recently released a technological survey for the program, as both a web blog: http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/05/lavi-engineers-perspective.html And as a slide and video: http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/05/lavi-engineers-perspective-video-and-pdf.html Looks like a good supplement to the book, with a number of illustrations that never made it into the printed version.

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In case anyone missed it, there was a great book that came out this past month covering Israel's cancelled Lavi fighter program - from its origins in 1970s concept studies, through its eventual cancelation in 1987: http://www.amazon.com/Lavi-United-States-Controversial-Fighter/dp/1612347223 This is one of those development programs that has traditionally been neglected in the library of modern jet aviation. The book is divided between an historical survey with all the expected political intrigue, and the technological elements of the airplane's design and operation. Part of what makes this particular book unusual is that the author has also set up a blog-site that includes material that was omitted from the book for brevity: http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2015/12/lavi-lost-chapters-preface.html http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2015/12/lavi-lost-chapters-haunted.html http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/01/lavi-lost-chapters-future-and-hope.html As well as full color copies of the book's black-and-white illustrations: http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/01/lavi-book-illustrations.html http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2015/12/lavi-book-in-print-photographs.html
Thank you for sharing Fltgshdw. I read that Lavi had 7 semi-conformal hardpoints under fusalage. Do you have pictures show how their positions are?
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Interesting reading (the links). Does this book include anything on the China/J-10 angle?

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Interesting reading (the links). Does this book include anything on the China/J-10 angle?
There's a small section discussing the J-10 - about two and a half pages worth.

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13 years 4 months

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Thank you for sharing Fltgshdw. I read that Lavi had 7 semi-conformal hardpoints under fusalage. Do you have pictures show how their positions are?
See slide 6 of the earlier slide-pack: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-PAxPH8yY9bb28yVklvOG16czA/view The Lavi had one centerline hardpoint (which was used in the prototypes to loft telemetry), and three tandem hard points arranged on either side of the fuselage (as shown in the illustration on slide 6).

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See slide 6 of the earlier slide-pack: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-PAxPH8yY9bb28yVklvOG16czA/view The Lavi had one centerline hardpoint (which was used in the prototypes to loft telemetry), and three tandem hard points arranged on either side of the fuselage (as shown in the illustration on slide 6).
Thank you Fltgshdw. The 2 central semi-confomal hardpoints that are in between 2 landing gear bays seem to be not in line with the forward and the rear ones.

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Thank you Fltgshdw. The 2 central semi-confomal hardpoints that are in between 2 landing gear bays seem to be not in line with the forward and the rear ones.
It looks like someone else posted the same question on the author's blog. You can find his answer below. http://john-golan.blogspot.com/2016/10/lavi-armament-stores-and-weapons.html

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There's a small section discussing the J-10 - about two and a half pages worth.
hot air that continues to persist. j-10 is clearly derived from the j-9 http://www.airlinebuzz.com/chickenworks/images/FRX_Pt1_J9camo_Bw.jpg
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hot air that continues to persist. j-10 is clearly derived from the j-9 http://www.airlinebuzz.com/chickenworks/images/FRX_Pt1_J9camo_Bw.jpg
"Hot Air"? Good old Song Wencong, fourth chap from the right... [ATTACH=CONFIG]249316[/ATTACH]
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"Hot Air"? Good old Song Wencong, fourth chap from the right... [ATTACH=CONFIG]249316[/ATTACH]
there are 5 things c-bots hate to talk about, and do their best to avoid or deny 1. True size of J-20 2. Kamov's involvement with the Z-10 3. Illegal copies of Flankers 4. Chinese commercial aviation international exports 5. and especially the Lavi to J-10 connection Israel acknowledges the connection, the Russians also say there's a connection but no, c-bots think that the j-10 supposedly comes from the 3rd gen J-9 which is more or less a J-8 with canards. lets totally forget that the original J-10 prototypes and models were more Lavi sized and had a similar intake http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i66IAYckkX4/UAyYrztZ9SI/AAAAAAAAALI/uenPKshJ3_o/s1600/J-10_mockup.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yvw9s-hPzcQ/UAyMmEDwd9I/AAAAAAAAAKI/5clTYe2AjyI/s1600/J-10a.jpg its pretty clear that they had to redesign it because they couldn't get the right engine for the original model, and had to make an enlarged version to fit the Russian Engine
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oops..:D

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there are 5 things c-bots hate to talk about, and do their best to avoid or deny 1. True size of J-20 2. Kamov's involvement with the Z-10 3. Illegal copies of Flankers 4. Chinese commercial aviation international exports 5. and especially the Lavi to J-10 connection Israel acknowledges the connection, the Russians also say there's a connection but no, c-bots think that the j-10 supposedly comes from the 3rd gen J-9 which is more or less a J-8 with canards. lets totally forget that the original J-10 prototypes and models were more Lavi sized and had a similar intake http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i66IAYckkX4/UAyYrztZ9SI/AAAAAAAAALI/uenPKshJ3_o/s1600/J-10_mockup.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yvw9s-hPzcQ/UAyMmEDwd9I/AAAAAAAAAKI/5clTYe2AjyI/s1600/J-10a.jpg its pretty clear that they had to redesign it because they couldn't get the right engine for the original model, and had to make an enlarged version to fit the Russian Engine
these are lies China has NO problem in saying they can work with Russia to make a plane. (unlike say Russians) L-15 is a perfect example where they received help from Yakobelb but all these other examples are baseless. the Lavi is a very small and underranged airplane. the J10 is so much bigger, they cannot be the same. It has a similar lay out, but do you say Eurofighter is a copy of Lavi? Z-10 is Chinese. Kamov helicopters have two rotors and are large. not their style Chinese flankers are legal that is why Russia doesn't complain. Even if they are illegal, what can Russia do? they cannot stop it.

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these are lies China has NO problem in saying they can work with Russia to make a plane. (unlike say Russians) L-15 is a perfect example where they received help from Yakobelb but all these other examples are baseless. the Lavi is a very small and underranged airplane. the J10 is so much bigger, they cannot be the same. It has a similar lay out, but do you say Eurofighter is a copy of Lavi? Z-10 is Chinese. Kamov helicopters have two rotors and are large. not their style Chinese flankers are legal that is why Russia doesn't complain. Even if they are illegal, what can Russia do? they cannot stop it.
That was a nice non-sequitur you threw out there with the Typhoon. Why would anyone think the Typhoon is a Lavi rip-off? Unless you thought all canards are the same, but that would mean you don't understand aircraft design very well. It's also nice how you completely ignored that the J-10 is bigger than the Lavi due to powerplant choices and that it may be larger due to mission requirements. Of course, that doesn't change the fact that it was derived from the Lavi in much the same sense that the F-2 is derived from the F-16. The fact is, the facts aren't on your side. I, personally, prefer facts over propaganda. Also, you don't know if the J-10 has a larger combat radius than the Lavi, as you would have to know what the specific ranges are for both designs under similar combat loads, and you definitely don't know that.
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Supposed to be a thread about the IAI Lavi right? :confused:
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these are lies China has NO problem in saying they can work with Russia to make a plane. (unlike say Russians) L-15 is a perfect example where they received help from Yakobelb but all these other examples are baseless. the Lavi is a very small and underranged airplane. the J10 is so much bigger, they cannot be the same. It has a similar lay out, but do you say Eurofighter is a copy of Lavi? Z-10 is Chinese. Kamov helicopters have two rotors and are large. not their style Chinese flankers are legal that is why Russia doesn't complain. Even if they are illegal, what can Russia do? they cannot stop it.
The first mockups of the J10 were Lavi clones, they were not more or less similar , they were THE Lavi, they didnt look like a Typhoon, they didnt look like the J9, those mockups were the Lavi in PLAAF markings, period. On top of that we have photograpic evidences of the J10 design team right in front of a bl###y Lavi, and if this was not enough we have a bucket load of Chinese hardware that is without a question a direct copy of Israeli equipment in the exact same timeframe of the development of the fr####ing Lavi, the most obvious example the AAM that would have been the, guess what, the main air to air munition of the... bleeding Lavi, and if THIS was not enough we have the Russians stating to Janes that Chengdu actually received one Lavi airframe and quite a few Israeli sources stating that "yeah, we helped"... Lies, all damned lies! You dont have to be a genius to understand that in 1989 China lost access to the PW1120, so they went to the Russians, more precisely to the AL31 wich is a bigger, heavier, more powerful engine, so they had the redesign the airframe, thats why the J10 is a bigger aircraft. The end.