By: Marcellogo
- 12th August 2016 at 09:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Believe me, Turkey wouldn't be the last one.
Even the same american people is tired about interventism, so they would have an easy road to walk on.
Between Turkey and Russia there would be many thing to settle down and probably the former wouldn't like to abandon NATO at the moment but the fundamentals are now taken a definitive turn with Erdogan moving fully into a more autoritary form of government, so no matter the time it will be needed they (and Iran also) would IMHO find themselves at the same side.
By: FalconDude
- 12th August 2016 at 10:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Believe me, Turkey wouldn't be the last one.
Even the same american people is tired about interventism, so they would have an easy road to walk on.
Between Turkey and Russia there would be many thing to settle down and probably the former wouldn't like to abandon NATO at the moment but the fundamentals are now taken a definitive turn with Erdogan moving fully into a more autoritary form of government, so no matter the time it will be needed they (and Iran also) would IMHO find themselves at the same side.
No other country has benefited from NATO membership as much as Turkey. Turkey will be the LAST country to ever leave NATO.
By: Andraxxus
- 12th August 2016 at 14:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A nonsensical claim, TBH.. No video cameras are capable to tell what are those convoys of trucks ferrying stuff from Turkey to Syria and back loaded with.. It could be anything from bags of rice to MANPADS and they would still look the same from above.. so exactly what kind of proof would you expect to get?
You tell me? Its Russians who post photos of Trucks as "proof" of Turkey buying IS oil. The problem is, they turned out to be Iraqi trucks, and picture turned out to be taken in Northern Iraq. If you think such photo cannot prove anything, then you are saying two things; 1- Russians are simply talking nonsense 2- They've lied for nothing. I don't share your idea and I do think some aerial footage can be a proof of that; ie, same convoy of truck leaving IS refinary, followed by an UAV all the way to the Turkish border, for example, could have been a pretty convincing proof (as Russians attempted to sell it) but I would have expected a footage at the very least to be taken in Syria.. In terms of law, Russians gave falsified evidence and this is considered a very big crime in any modern country that I know of.
Davutoglu in Nov 2015: It was decided that in the event of our airspace being violated, all necessarily measures would be taken, all relevant orders to the armed forces were given by me, personally.
Davutoglu in Jul 2016: “I did not give the order to shoot down that plane,” Davutoglu told NTV, claiming it would not have been possible to give the order as the Russian plane allegedly spent 17 seconds in Turkish airspace
Are YOU being serious? You are nitpicking two sentences to answers given to two completely different questions; (Unfortunately our press does the same to make headlines a little more sensational, I honestly don't blame you on this)
1st one was a statement about that the order given to military for shooting down any aircraft crosses border was given by the prime minister.
2nd is an answer to a question regarding was he was in contact with military during the shooting down event, and his answer is in the lines of "I am not a soldier within the chain of command".
Obviously, Prime Minister (and parliament) give orders to Chief of staff to airforce command within the military hierarchy down to the pilot. Its very stupid -of you or anyone else- to expect Prime Minister himself calling the pilot to gave the orders. Aside from the technical impossibility, a politician cannot give orders to military in that way. Such orders must come from proper channels within the military. You are watching too much movies, I think.
BTW, the regret was not offered on day 1, it was first offered in Erdogan's letter to Putin in June 2016, 7 months after the incident..
Ok, to be fair, it was offered on 26 Oct 2015, day 3. He said in France a) he regretted* such event occured, b) had we known aircraft belonged to Russia, we may have made our warnings differently, but he also said "he won't apologize to Russia, for an event Turkey was right in its act. If anyone has to apologize, its Russians who crossed our borders". What changed?
*I don't know if that is lost in translation somewhere, but Turkish word "üzüntü" translate both as sadness and regret, and Turkish word "pişmanlık" translate both as regret and remorse. He said "üzüntü" maybe 20-30 times on those events, first being in France.
LOL... you are now completely losing any credibility in my eyes.. . it's Edogan who is writing letters of regret, not Putin.. it's Erdogan doing the traveling to Moscow to restore the relations, not Putin to Ankara.. It's Putin who is rolling back the ban on the sales of holidays, food imports and construction, not Erdogan.. And finally, it's Erdogan who is calling Russia "a strategic partner and a friend", not vice versa.. so WTF are you trying to sell me here?
Don't act like a 7 year old child. "hey its erdoğan begged putin" "hey erdoğan came to moscow" blah blah blah. What were you expecting, really? Its Turkish side who shot down the plane, how Putin could write a letter of regret? "I regret you shot down our plane", yeah right. Its Russia who initiates sanctions, Turkey merely reacts to that, and now obviously its Russia rolling back them back first. How can you pass these as some "Russia strong!11"?? When you re-read what you have posted, do you REALLY think what you wrote has any logic?
Again, in this political stand-off, Russian side demanded apology, got none. Demanded compensation for aircraft got none. Demanded compensation for family got none. Demanded punishment of those who killed the pilot and so far, got none.
From Turkish side, it was regret on day 3, NO apology on day 1, only took equvalent action to Russian sactions from week 1-2, and called Russia a partner and a friend ever since day 3. Contents of letter was exactly that, now why Russian reaction softened after 7 months? Was it too difficult to translate those from TV?
Don't try to sell this as a political victory of Russia. What matters is Russia didn't got anything they wanted, period. I don't have to sell you or anyone, anything. From political perspective, Turkey shot down the aircraft, and got away pretty clean with it.
But, Ankara Mayor Melih Gokcek argued that
You are taking quotes from a man who even managed to connect his rivals to illuminati. Seriously, Trump says Obama himself created ISIS and you quote a man who don't even have 1/1000th credibility of Trump. Its YOU losing credilibity by such quotes.
What Putin want from Turkey, the one big thing, is creating a rift between NATO and Turkey. That has been one of Putin long term approach since he became President. Not just Turkey, but any NATO country.
Who knows, he may got his wish... US-Turkey relations has never been this bad, ever. This time its not just some political disagreement or some usual anti-capitalist folks dislike them, whole of Turkish population hates US for their PYD policy, and their refusal to return Fethullah Gulen.
By: haavarla
- 12th August 2016 at 14:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The overall goal for Putin is the collaps of NATO and Strenghtning of Russia self Interest.
Putin is an old NATO hater, still gnawing on long old wounds which will not heal anytimes soon.
Its not only Putins fault, but still.. his very ideas and Inspirasjon is like a 1000 years old..
By: JSR
- 12th August 2016 at 16:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't try to sell this as a political victory of Russia. What matters is Russia didn't got anything they wanted, period. I don't have to sell you or anyone, anything. From political perspective, Turkey shot down the aircraft, and got away pretty clean with it.
your limited understanding is showing here. Russia wants Turkey to keep quiet when it creates the biggest slaughter house in Syria. Russia want Turkey to either help or on the side lines when wider Sunni-Shia wars for control of middleastern oil starts. Russia will be the key player in that kind of wars from airspace and equipment suppliers.
The existence of Modern Turkey solely depends on Russia.
It will be Russia that will provide confidence to rest of EU for tourism. Germanic tourist not spend and without Tourism Turkey construction, real estate and retail markets will collapse.
“Travel agencies shape the market. The return of Russians to the Turkish market will strengthen our hands in Europe as Turkey’s tourism sector has started to normalize again. This will boost our sales,” he added.
It will be Russian gas pipelines that will give you rent. It is Russian nuclear reactors with full fuel cycle supply that will give you cheaper electricity for industrials. It is only Russia weopons that you can use in high intensity combat with kurds and assure supply of weopons and spares. infact if Turkey join Russia it can get some spoils in Middleastern Oil otherwise Iranian will take most of benefit.
By: Andraxxus
- 12th August 2016 at 17:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never..??
"Never" for 35 years of conflict would be a too far fetched claim I am not that old, but in last 15 years or so, no Turkish tank has been penetrated by RPG and written off. Only injuries to a tank crewmen were a few months ago, in a short version of story, A M-60A3 got hit by a RPG (probably RPG-7), a fire broke out outside the tank, driver panicked and left the tank from his hatch, but tank didn't blew up. Instead, it slided down the road and landed onto the top of a building down hill. 3 inside the tank were injured due to the fall, presumably Commander, Gunner and Loader. TSK initially claimed this to be a problem with a defective ammunition, but sound from the video published by Kurds in region suggests a RPG launch&hit. If you know of any other damaged/destroyed tanks of TSK, please share, I would like to know those as well.
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Posts: 269
By: Byoin
- 19th August 2016 at 15:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
us now removing nukes in turkey and putting it in romania. much safer choice
and also a step closer in turkey leaving nato and going towards the east.
maybe safe to say it'll get a much water down version of f35 now or none at all.
New
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10
- 19th August 2016 at 15:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think Russians simply have traded their "acknowledgement" for something else, most probably pretty valuable to them.. seeing Erdogan providing words of deep regret and repentance over the ill-fated Su-24M, selling the THK pilots as "traitors who have damaged our good mutual relations".. the info Russian GRU have on him must be a bomb.. My 0.02 :)
Considering the recent events in Turkey, is it so far fetched to assume that the personnel responsible for the Su-24 shoot-down were part of the same bunch that attempted the coup. It's known that there were F16 involved in the coup right?
It's pretty obvious the Su-24 was shot down in a well set up trap, and it's pretty likely that was done precisely to antagonize Russia. Did Erdogan really want to do that? Did the US through it's NATO/gladio networks have the influence to organize it?
By: JSR
- 19th August 2016 at 17:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolutely. No theory, no matter how far fetched is off the table. Nonetheless; Turkey will not be leaving NATO on its own accord. Ever.
Turkey has already left nato if you consider the interests of countries that make up nato. Turkey is in deep relationship with Arabs/Iranians. On top of that the internal changes.
By: Andraxxus
- 20th August 2016 at 01:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
and it's pretty likely that was done precisely to antagonize Russia. Did Erdogan really want to do that? Did the US through it's NATO/gladio networks have the influence to organize it?
I fail to see the logic. Erdogan already said pilot shot down was also arrested as part of the coup, but he also said this is totally unrelated to the shooting down event. From another POV, if that was true, why should Erdoğan not acknowledge this and save his own face? Many in Turkey didn't exactly approved that shooting down event. If that was true, such action would have served very well to his internal politics.
It's pretty obvious the Su-24 was shot down in a well set up trap,
This conspiracy theory, I don't understand. What made this Russian Su-24 special? A Russian Su-30 invaded twice, it was not shot down, a Russian Su-34 invaded twice during the operations and those were not shot down either.
Turkish side said they didn't knew the identity of the Su-24 before shooting down. They have shot down different Syrian aircraft, and surely this Su-24 didn't get any special treatment than those. What is not to believe in this official explaination? What makes you think this is a well set up trap for this aircraft that makes the basis of your other teories?
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By: obligatory
- 20th August 2016 at 02:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
it was trespassing and shot down, whats the problem ?
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Posts: 269
By: Byoin
- 24th August 2016 at 13:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
it was trespassing and shot down, whats the problem ?
because they sacrificed the pilot who was following orders, to putin
By: Broccoli
- 24th August 2016 at 15:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
because they sacrificed the pilot who was following orders, to putin
For Russians humans are nothing more than biomass so it's was not a big deal for them. See the stories about all the dead Russian "volunteers" in Syria and Ukraine.
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Posts: 269
By: Byoin
- 24th August 2016 at 16:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For Russians humans are nothing more than biomass so it's was not a big deal for them. See the stories about all the dead Russian "volunteers" in Syria and Ukraine.
lol last month, they were all about revenge, unforgiveable killing by savages, bomb all Turks and their allies.
now they are like, we must forgive and move on from the past.
New
Posts: 288
By: sepheronx
- 24th August 2016 at 16:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
lol last month, they were all about revenge, unforgiveable killing by savages, bomb all Turks and their allies.
now they are like, we must forgive and move on from the past.
Media is, people are not. Many are pissed in Russia regarding this whole ordeal and think it was stupid of their authorities that talk about how they will never forget and Turkey will pay, now are all buddy buddies with Turks again.
Turkey isn't moving away from US. The coup was a joke, it was fake. It was a reason for Erdogan to simply remove opposition and a way to fool Russians. It worked.
Turks are also being fooled as the pilot who shot down the su-24 was thrown under the bus as well. So really, everyone is lying real hard.
By: haavarla
- 24th August 2016 at 17:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Media is, people are not. Many are pissed in Russia regarding this whole ordeal and think it was stupid of their authorities that talk about how they will never forget and Turkey will pay, now are all buddy buddies with Turks again.
Turkey isn't moving away from US. The coup was a joke, it was fake. It was a reason for Erdogan to simply remove opposition and a way to fool Russians. It worked.
Turks are also being fooled as the pilot who shot down the su-24 was thrown under the bus as well. So really, everyone is lying real hard.
Lol! So you think Erdogan just fooled Putin!?
You have to forgive my stance on this, but old KGB Hawkeye Putin!?
The ******* may have aged in all his year in Kreml.
But from what I can see, he seems to have outwitted Both Obama administrasjon and his allies in a series of manuveres on world arena. So I would wait with your champagne teori on Erdogan great plan.
When Putin said he will never forget the Turkish backstabbing over Syria, I would be inclined to believe him.
Besides. . You just cant trick the trickster.
By: JSR
- 24th August 2016 at 17:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
lol last month, they were all about revenge, unforgiveable killing by savages, bomb all Turks and their allies.
now they are like, we must forgive and move on from the past.
Turkey has self inflicted wounds. it does not need any Russian revenge for plane downing. Aleppo and Idlib are bomb to rubble. and people all refugees in turkey. that Turkey people will deal with them every day.
Posts: 1,765
By: Marcellogo - 12th August 2016 at 09:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Believe me, Turkey wouldn't be the last one.
Even the same american people is tired about interventism, so they would have an easy road to walk on.
Between Turkey and Russia there would be many thing to settle down and probably the former wouldn't like to abandon NATO at the moment but the fundamentals are now taken a definitive turn with Erdogan moving fully into a more autoritary form of government, so no matter the time it will be needed they (and Iran also) would IMHO find themselves at the same side.
Posts: 1,138
By: FalconDude - 12th August 2016 at 10:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No other country has benefited from NATO membership as much as Turkey. Turkey will be the LAST country to ever leave NATO.
Posts: 932
By: Andraxxus - 12th August 2016 at 14:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You tell me? Its Russians who post photos of Trucks as "proof" of Turkey buying IS oil. The problem is, they turned out to be Iraqi trucks, and picture turned out to be taken in Northern Iraq. If you think such photo cannot prove anything, then you are saying two things; 1- Russians are simply talking nonsense 2- They've lied for nothing. I don't share your idea and I do think some aerial footage can be a proof of that; ie, same convoy of truck leaving IS refinary, followed by an UAV all the way to the Turkish border, for example, could have been a pretty convincing proof (as Russians attempted to sell it) but I would have expected a footage at the very least to be taken in Syria.. In terms of law, Russians gave falsified evidence and this is considered a very big crime in any modern country that I know of.
Are YOU being serious? You are nitpicking two sentences to answers given to two completely different questions; (Unfortunately our press does the same to make headlines a little more sensational, I honestly don't blame you on this)
1st one was a statement about that the order given to military for shooting down any aircraft crosses border was given by the prime minister.
2nd is an answer to a question regarding was he was in contact with military during the shooting down event, and his answer is in the lines of "I am not a soldier within the chain of command".
Obviously, Prime Minister (and parliament) give orders to Chief of staff to airforce command within the military hierarchy down to the pilot. Its very stupid -of you or anyone else- to expect Prime Minister himself calling the pilot to gave the orders. Aside from the technical impossibility, a politician cannot give orders to military in that way. Such orders must come from proper channels within the military. You are watching too much movies, I think.
Ok, to be fair, it was offered on 26 Oct 2015, day 3. He said in France a) he regretted* such event occured, b) had we known aircraft belonged to Russia, we may have made our warnings differently, but he also said "he won't apologize to Russia, for an event Turkey was right in its act. If anyone has to apologize, its Russians who crossed our borders". What changed?
*I don't know if that is lost in translation somewhere, but Turkish word "üzüntü" translate both as sadness and regret, and Turkish word "pişmanlık" translate both as regret and remorse. He said "üzüntü" maybe 20-30 times on those events, first being in France.
Don't act like a 7 year old child. "hey its erdoğan begged putin" "hey erdoğan came to moscow" blah blah blah. What were you expecting, really? Its Turkish side who shot down the plane, how Putin could write a letter of regret? "I regret you shot down our plane", yeah right. Its Russia who initiates sanctions, Turkey merely reacts to that, and now obviously its Russia rolling back them back first. How can you pass these as some "Russia strong!11"?? When you re-read what you have posted, do you REALLY think what you wrote has any logic?
Again, in this political stand-off, Russian side demanded apology, got none. Demanded compensation for aircraft got none. Demanded compensation for family got none. Demanded punishment of those who killed the pilot and so far, got none.
From Turkish side, it was regret on day 3, NO apology on day 1, only took equvalent action to Russian sactions from week 1-2, and called Russia a partner and a friend ever since day 3. Contents of letter was exactly that, now why Russian reaction softened after 7 months? Was it too difficult to translate those from TV?
Don't try to sell this as a political victory of Russia. What matters is Russia didn't got anything they wanted, period. I don't have to sell you or anyone, anything. From political perspective, Turkey shot down the aircraft, and got away pretty clean with it.
You are taking quotes from a man who even managed to connect his rivals to illuminati. Seriously, Trump says Obama himself created ISIS and you quote a man who don't even have 1/1000th credibility of Trump. Its YOU losing credilibity by such quotes.
Who knows, he may got his wish... US-Turkey relations has never been this bad, ever. This time its not just some political disagreement or some usual anti-capitalist folks dislike them, whole of Turkish population hates US for their PYD policy, and their refusal to return Fethullah Gulen.
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 12th August 2016 at 14:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The overall goal for Putin is the collaps of NATO and Strenghtning of Russia self Interest.
Putin is an old NATO hater, still gnawing on long old wounds which will not heal anytimes soon.
Its not only Putins fault, but still.. his very ideas and Inspirasjon is like a 1000 years old..
Posts: 80
By: foxmulder_ms - 12th August 2016 at 15:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never..??
Posts: 4,731
By: JSR - 12th August 2016 at 16:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
your limited understanding is showing here. Russia wants Turkey to keep quiet when it creates the biggest slaughter house in Syria. Russia want Turkey to either help or on the side lines when wider Sunni-Shia wars for control of middleastern oil starts. Russia will be the key player in that kind of wars from airspace and equipment suppliers.
The existence of Modern Turkey solely depends on Russia.
It will be Russia that will provide confidence to rest of EU for tourism. Germanic tourist not spend and without Tourism Turkey construction, real estate and retail markets will collapse.
It will be Russian gas pipelines that will give you rent. It is Russian nuclear reactors with full fuel cycle supply that will give you cheaper electricity for industrials. It is only Russia weopons that you can use in high intensity combat with kurds and assure supply of weopons and spares. infact if Turkey join Russia it can get some spoils in Middleastern Oil otherwise Iranian will take most of benefit.
Posts: 932
By: Andraxxus - 12th August 2016 at 17:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"Never" for 35 years of conflict would be a too far fetched claim I am not that old, but in last 15 years or so, no Turkish tank has been penetrated by RPG and written off. Only injuries to a tank crewmen were a few months ago, in a short version of story, A M-60A3 got hit by a RPG (probably RPG-7), a fire broke out outside the tank, driver panicked and left the tank from his hatch, but tank didn't blew up. Instead, it slided down the road and landed onto the top of a building down hill. 3 inside the tank were injured due to the fall, presumably Commander, Gunner and Loader. TSK initially claimed this to be a problem with a defective ammunition, but sound from the video published by Kurds in region suggests a RPG launch&hit. If you know of any other damaged/destroyed tanks of TSK, please share, I would like to know those as well.
Posts: 269
By: Byoin - 19th August 2016 at 15:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
us now removing nukes in turkey and putting it in romania. much safer choice
and also a step closer in turkey leaving nato and going towards the east.
maybe safe to say it'll get a much water down version of f35 now or none at all.
Posts: 4,472
By: Nicolas10 - 19th August 2016 at 15:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Considering the recent events in Turkey, is it so far fetched to assume that the personnel responsible for the Su-24 shoot-down were part of the same bunch that attempted the coup. It's known that there were F16 involved in the coup right?
It's pretty obvious the Su-24 was shot down in a well set up trap, and it's pretty likely that was done precisely to antagonize Russia. Did Erdogan really want to do that? Did the US through it's NATO/gladio networks have the influence to organize it?
I wouldn't dismiss any theory at the moment.
Nic
Posts: 1,138
By: FalconDude - 19th August 2016 at 17:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolutely. No theory, no matter how far fetched is off the table. Nonetheless; Turkey will not be leaving NATO on its own accord. Ever.
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 19th August 2016 at 17:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How about this; Turkey will leave NATO and join China! Together they rule the world!
Totaly plausible
Posts: 4,731
By: JSR - 19th August 2016 at 17:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Turkey has already left nato if you consider the interests of countries that make up nato. Turkey is in deep relationship with Arabs/Iranians. On top of that the internal changes.
Posts: 932
By: Andraxxus - 20th August 2016 at 01:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I fail to see the logic. Erdogan already said pilot shot down was also arrested as part of the coup, but he also said this is totally unrelated to the shooting down event. From another POV, if that was true, why should Erdoğan not acknowledge this and save his own face? Many in Turkey didn't exactly approved that shooting down event. If that was true, such action would have served very well to his internal politics.
This conspiracy theory, I don't understand. What made this Russian Su-24 special? A Russian Su-30 invaded twice, it was not shot down, a Russian Su-34 invaded twice during the operations and those were not shot down either.
Turkish side said they didn't knew the identity of the Su-24 before shooting down. They have shot down different Syrian aircraft, and surely this Su-24 didn't get any special treatment than those. What is not to believe in this official explaination? What makes you think this is a well set up trap for this aircraft that makes the basis of your other teories?
Posts: 6,983
By: obligatory - 20th August 2016 at 02:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
it was trespassing and shot down, whats the problem ?
Posts: 269
By: Byoin - 24th August 2016 at 13:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
because they sacrificed the pilot who was following orders, to putin
Posts: 272
By: Broccoli - 24th August 2016 at 15:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For Russians humans are nothing more than biomass so it's was not a big deal for them. See the stories about all the dead Russian "volunteers" in Syria and Ukraine.
Posts: 269
By: Byoin - 24th August 2016 at 16:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
lol last month, they were all about revenge, unforgiveable killing by savages, bomb all Turks and their allies.
now they are like, we must forgive and move on from the past.
Posts: 288
By: sepheronx - 24th August 2016 at 16:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Media is, people are not. Many are pissed in Russia regarding this whole ordeal and think it was stupid of their authorities that talk about how they will never forget and Turkey will pay, now are all buddy buddies with Turks again.
Turkey isn't moving away from US. The coup was a joke, it was fake. It was a reason for Erdogan to simply remove opposition and a way to fool Russians. It worked.
Turks are also being fooled as the pilot who shot down the su-24 was thrown under the bus as well. So really, everyone is lying real hard.
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 24th August 2016 at 17:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Lol! So you think Erdogan just fooled Putin!?
You have to forgive my stance on this, but old KGB Hawkeye Putin!?
The ******* may have aged in all his year in Kreml.
But from what I can see, he seems to have outwitted Both Obama administrasjon and his allies in a series of manuveres on world arena. So I would wait with your champagne teori on Erdogan great plan.
When Putin said he will never forget the Turkish backstabbing over Syria, I would be inclined to believe him.
Besides. . You just cant trick the trickster.
Posts: 4,731
By: JSR - 24th August 2016 at 17:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Turkey has self inflicted wounds. it does not need any Russian revenge for plane downing. Aleppo and Idlib are bomb to rubble. and people all refugees in turkey. that Turkey people will deal with them every day.