Gripen , Typhoon , Rafale vs F-15C , F-16C ,F-15E , Su-27 , Mig-29

Profile picture for user MSphere

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Yes, 2,000+ cruise missile attack to take out the nicely allocated rock targets in SCS.

Really? Show you got the balls to do it..

Except it isn't, not even close. Try again.
Just like your pathetic little J-20 to 1.44 comment..

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Really? Show you got the balls to do it..

Just like your pathetic little J-20 to 1.44 comment..


What balls would be required? Chinese conduct has already been ruled illegal by a UN court of arbitration = legitimacy. Subs and bomber hit military targets on islands with cruise missiles from 2,500km away if they start drilling other nations' EEZs, and what's China going to do about it? Try fly bombers across the Pacific to the US mainland. Sail across? That would be a really quick way to lose an air force and a navy and would probably result in mainland targets like CAC getting a cruise missile through the roof too.

Yeah, they just both happen to have quad fins at the back, which is a very distinctive feature. Then they added stolen F-35 intake designs and EOTS and Russian engines. Originality is not their strong suit.

http://www.kyaboss.com/chinese-copy-everything-25-crazy-pictures-showing-their-brand-replicas
http://www.businessinsider.com/things-that-china-copied-from-the-world-2013-8?IR=T
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/car-culture/its-a-knock-off-chinas-copycat-cars-at-the-2015-shanghai-motor-show/

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First Su-35S was delivered to the VVS in february 2014, at the moment they are completing the first series of 48 and another contract of 50 has been signed, add to them the 68 Su-34 and the 76 Su-30 consigned between 2010-2015 and you would get an idea of the real last generation Flanker production level.

So we're looking at about 12 planes per year given that they're still committed to replacing Su-24s with Su-34s. So it will likely take until about 2025 to have a third as many Su-50s as there are F-22s. Maybe they cut Su-30 production and end up with half as many?? Raptor production was about 40+/year at peak and F-35 production will likely be similar (or better given problems mentioned) for the US alone.

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Still it remain the only case in which instead of just slow down production and just cut the final order they decided to end production and keep instead +30 years old planes in service for almost other 20 years...
Western Europeans even in the years of the so called peace dividend kept on with production aimed to replace old planes with new ones, russian also with all their past problems are actually replacing their legacy fighters at a quite fast rate, USN has kept on buying Super Hornets n score
So only USAF plan to keep planes build before the end of the Cold war in the next decade. And in the one after that.
So if you still didn't see a problem there, i'll not be the one keeping to try to change your minds.

In any case tomorrow i'll take a weekend off, so let's see you in another week and probably in another thread also, as i fell that this one has served its own initial pourpose quite well, so keeping on quarreling on secondary aspects of the whole matter would only keep putting its quality down.


Politics and silly production process. Gates killed the Raptor because he wanted more money for the army due to the Iraq War.

Pah, not really. The UK planned to have about 100 more Typhoons by now than it actually has. French Rafale production has been no faster. Most of the German AF isn't even operational.

The F-15 has had an AESA upgrade and is getting a major EW upgrade too. It's 30 years old only in the same way an Su-35 is essentially a 30 year-old design with a few tweaks. Two F-35 variants have reached IOC, well before J-20 and PAK-FA, which haven't been running all that smoothly despite the lack of media attention. The X-47B is in testing and stuff like the B-21 and SR-72 is on the drawing board.

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rcs reduction does not help F-18E as soon as they left the area for airrefuelling Su-34 returned to bomb. with MIG-31 rcs you cant do anything as only MIG-31 has the ultimate long range weopon and it can dictate the fight at place of its chosing.

Yeah, if there's only 1 plane.:rolleyes:
Profile picture for user MSphere

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What balls would be required? Chinese conduct has already been ruled illegal by a UN court of arbitration = legitimacy. Subs and bomber hit military targets on islands with cruise missiles from 2,500km away if they start drilling other nations' EEZs, and what's China going to do about it? Try fly bombers across the Pacific to the US mainland. Sail across? That would be a really quick way to lose an air force and a navy and would probably result in mainland targets like CAC getting a cruise missile through the roof too.
Oh, we could do this and that... cheap trash leaves me unimpressed.. Do it and then we'll talk..

Yeah, they just both happen to have quad fins at the back, which is a very distinctive feature. Then they added stolen F-35 intake designs and EOTS and Russian engines. Originality is not their strong suit.
Who cares? It was developed in 1/4th of the time of the F-35, for 1/10th of the cost and it will most likely eat it for breakfast.. How better could it get?

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Who cares? It was developed in 1/4th of the time of the F-35, for 1/10th of the cost and it will most likely eat it for breakfast.. How better could it get?

Do you really believe that - or are you just saying that for the sake of argument with Mr/Ms Prime?

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Oh, we could do this and that... cheap trash leaves me unimpressed.. Do it and then we'll talk..

Who cares? It was developed in 1/4th of the time of the F-35, for 1/10th of the cost and it will most likely eat it for breakfast.. How better could it get?


Let's see if they'll have the balls to start drilling in the areas they've claimed first. I could claim the whole of Russia on a map, but that doesn't mean I'd have the balls to start drilling in Siberia without their permission.

Based on assumption. You might also try reading more and writing less. You could start with the J-20 article in Key Pubs Stealth magazine. I only scan read it, yet still I know far more than you about how many attempts it took to get to what they have now. A contract was signed with SAC in 2002, the work was based on earlier attempts dubbed Concept 1993 or 'Fighter-D', which started in the early '90s, i.e. not long after the F-22 project started. This developed into the J-19, which lost to the CAC J-20. SAC began development, but ran into problems, so it was handed to CAC in mid-2008 and 8 years after that here we are with someone telling us it was developed in quarter the time of the F-35 with zero problems. Good show.:highly_amused:

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Do you really believe that - or are you just saying that for the sake of argument with Mr/Ms Prime?

No he really believes it. He's likely also unaware that the PAK-FA has a similar time frame and the whole MiG-1.44 failure never happened in his world because we're crap at developing stealth aircraft and they're not because Pierre Sprey said so.
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So we're looking at about 12 planes per year given that they're still committed to replacing Su-24s with Su-34s. So it will likely take until about 2025 to have a third as many Su-50s as there are F-22s. Maybe they cut Su-30 production and end up with half as many?? Raptor production was about 40+/year at peak and F-35 production will likely be similar (or better given problems mentioned) for the US alone.

NAPO hit the 100th the Su-34 airframe at the floor, last week.
2016, they produce 18 units.
VKS is expecting to recieve 200-250 of the Tactical bomber to replace Su-24M fleet.

http:// https://youtu.be/1dc4toCFGFI

KNAAZ has closed the Su-27 line. And is only producing Su-35s now.
This year they will deliver 8 Su-35s to VKS and an undisclosed number of Su-35SK to China.

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NAPO hit the 100 the Su-34 airframe at the floor, last week.
2016, they produce 18 units.
VKS is expecting to recieve 200-250 of the Tactical bomber to replace Su-24M fleet.

http:// https://youtu.be/1dc4toCFGFI

KNAAZ has closed the Su-27 lune. And is only producing Su-35s now.
This year they will deliver 8 Su-35s to VKS and an undisclosed number of Su-35SK to China.


But the question is how fast they can knock out Su-50s come 2020, when it's likely to reach operational status. My view is 10-20/year maximum.
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As with everything, they will start at a low LIRP figure and work its way up(see Su-35S for clues). But you allready figured that one out, but just have to thrash everything that is not US.

If we include Irkuts, KnAAZ and NAPO, their fighter bomber production, it is not horrible lower vs LM F-35 output.

From the usual suspects;
The Sukhoi productions would be closed to its death, and Russia broke..
Oh and what ever happend to the -+100 F-35 production output that was going to happening like three years ago?

AFAIK, the LM F-35 output rate is around 40 per year.

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AFAIK, the LM F-35 output rate is around 40 per year.

Lockheed will deliver 53 F-35's in 2016. With the F-16 production still ongoing FW would probably deliver 60 (+/- 2-4) fighter aircraft this year (they delivered 11 Vipers last year). Boeing plans to deliver at least 24 F/EA-18 aircraft this year. With the F-15SA production they could potentially also deliver close to 40 or more aircraft this year, taking the total per annum strike fighter production for these two OEM's close to 100.

The F-16 deliveries are likely to slow to a drip and it will probably not survive the turn of the decade. Given how the Kuwaiti and Qatar orders are handled, and what becomes of the Canadian competition Boeing could still be producing and F-18E/F's past 2020 at the current rates. I expect around 60-80 extra F-18E/F's and EA-18G's to be ordered by the Navy beyond what is currently funded so that could mean 3-4 years of extended production past FY19 when they finish delivering what is currently funded and planned (Kuwait). As the F-16 fades away the F-35 ramps up with the road from 53 deliveries to 100 deliveries is not very long.

Between 2010, and 2020 the USAF would have received 250 F-35A's (and 15 prior to that). Not all of the 264 (1-class A) would be operational/combat coded because of testing and training but a significant portion would.

Oh and what ever happend to the -+100 F-35 production output that was going to happening like three years ago?

Schedule moved to the right on account of development delays. Current short term delivery plan -

2015 - 45 Delivered
2016 - 53 (On track)
2017* - 59-60
2018* - 100

http://uk.reuters.com/article/usa-lockheed-f-idUKL2N15A1L6

*Most if not all of the 2017 and 2018 aircraft are funded or will soon be (latest LRIP negotiation)

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As with everything, they will start at a low LIRP figure and work its way up(see Su-35S for clues). But you allready figured that one out, but just have to thrash everything that is not US.

If we include Irkuts, KnAAZ and NAPO, their fighter bomber production, it is not horrible lower vs LM F-35 output.

From the usual suspects;
The Sukhoi productions would be closed to its death, and Russia broke..
Oh and what ever happend to the -+100 F-35 production output that was going to happening like three years ago?

AFAIK, the LM F-35 output rate is around 40 per year.


Which is still way better than anything the Su-50 will likely see. I think the main problem is that Sukhoi is doing all the production, so you've got Su-35s, Su-34s, Su-30s and Su-50s coming out from one company, whereas in the US, F-35s are being produced by Lockheed and Northrop is producing the B-21s and X-47Bs, while Boeing knocks out Growlers.
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No X-47B's are in production. They two aircraft will soon be retired to a museum with a competitive acquisition strategy for MQ-25 leading to contract awards that are some time away. The Mig-29K production is also ongoing and other Fulcrum variants will likely be produced beyond 2020.

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No X-47B's are in production. They two aircraft will soon be retired to a museum with a competitive acquisition strategy for MQ-25 leading to contract awards that are some time away. The Mig-29K production is also ongoing and other Fulcrum variants will likely be produced beyond 2020.

True but I'm going to place an early bet that it'll be Northrop Grumman that wins that competition.

I guess MiG is doing something, even if it's just knocking out updated versions of a 35 year-old design.

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Which is still way better than anything the Su-50 will likely see. I think the main problem is that Sukhoi is doing all the production, so you've got Su-35s, Su-34s, Su-30s and Su-50s coming out from one company, whereas in the US, F-35s are being produced by Lockheed and Northrop is producing the B-21s and X-47Bs, while Boeing knocks out Growlers.

Sukhoi is not doing any production, they only do design.. Production plants are Sokol (MiG-31BMs), Novosibirsk (Su-34), Irkut (Su-30SM, Yak-130) and Komsomolsk (Su-50, Su-35, Su-30MK2).. Then you have MiG churning out MiG-35s/MiG-29Ks and Tupolev doing their bomber thing.
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KNAAZ has closed the Su-27 line. And is only producing Su-35s now.
This year they will deliver 8 Su-35s to VKS and an undisclosed number of Su-35SK to China.

Does it mean the low-end Su-30MK sales are over?

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Sukhoi is not doing any production, they only do design.. Production plants are Sokol (MiG-31BMs), Novosibirsk (Su-34), Irkut (Su-30SM, Yak-130) and Komsomolsk (Su-50, Su-35, Su-30MK2).. Then you have MiG churning out MiG-35s/MiG-29Ks and Tupolev doing their bomber thing.

Meh, well the production rate is relatively low one way or another.
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Which is still way better than anything the Su-50 will likely see.

Su-50? There is no such thing.
The T-50 might enter service as Su-37, Su-39*,... or even Su-50, if the Russians follow the US marketing BS. But right now, it is the T-50

* Yeah I know those numbers are already taken, but I have no idea if 37 and 39 are official designations or just marketing from manufacturers.